Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

[Ruzious]

This team's and board's inexplicable obsession with players that can do it all but the most basic thing...shoot the damn ball.

You mean like Giannis until this season? Simmons' shooting has been basically the same as Giannis' first 6 seasons.

I just don’t see the endgame in trading Beal for Simmons.

If the Wizards are moving Beal it’s because the team around him isn’t good enough to win. Well if the supporting cast isn’t good enough for Beal, it won’t be for Simmons either. He’s not carrying your team to title contention without another superstar teammate - but he makes your floor too high to tank for that superstar in the draft. Star FAs aren’t flocking to DC in free agency ,either.

Beal holds a lot of value to our franchise and league at large, cashing that in to build a Ben Simmons-led treadmill team instead of swinging for the fences would be disappointing. The stacked 2021 draft class has potential stars like Cade Cunningham, Evan Mobley who’ve dominated older competition in front of scouts. The 2022 draft class is the double draft featuring a record number of 5-star prospects. If Wash do eventually field offers for Beal , in any deal they should be seeking unprotected picks from both the 2021 and 2022 drafts , along with cost-controlled young players.

To me, for a team like the Wiz which doesn't have a player than can carry a team to some extent, it's about talent first and then about things like contract, age, production history, and fit. I think Simmons checks all the boxes over Beal except for fit. And fit can be changed.

[DCZards]

To me, for a team like the Wiz which doesn't have a player than can carry a team to some extent, it's about talent first and then about things like contract, age, production history, and fit. I think Simmons checks all the boxes over Beal except for fit. And fit can be changed.

Fit is no small concern. It's a problem in Philly where Simmons is teamed with one of the best bigs in the game and it will be a problem in DC. You have to essentially be committed to building your team around a single player, and his immense strengths as well as his glaring weakness--Ben's shooting and his lack of confidence in his shooting. (Nate, it's a cop out to blame Ben's shooting woes on lousy coaching.)

There’s a lot to like about Simmons…a whole lot. But he’s not enough of a difference maker for me to feel comfortable trading Beal for him given the obvious downside--Ben’s awful fit with Wall. I’d want to see at least a season of Beal, Wall and this new crew (along with the 2020 lottery pick) together before pulling the trigger on a Beal-Simmons trade.

[Illmatic12]

Beal holds a lot of value to our franchise and league at large, cashing that in to build a Ben Simmons-led treadmill team instead of swinging for the fences would be disappointing. The stacked 2021 draft class has potential stars like Cade Cunningham, Evan Mobley who’ve dominated older competition in front of scouts. The 2022 draft class is the double draft featuring a record number of 5-star prospects. If Wash do eventually field offers for Beal , in any deal they should be seeking unprotected picks from both the 2021 and 2022 drafts , along with cost-controlled young players.

In theory, I would love to trade Beal for a couple of unprotected 2021 and/or 2022 picks from a team likely to be in the lottery then. But that's just the problem. No team that wants Beal projects to be in the lottery in 2021 and/or 2022.

Since landing a couple of shots at the lottery doesn't seem likely, I think the next best thing is to land a 23-year-old All-Star and former #1 overall pick who happens to be in a lousy situation with lousy coaching and therefore has potential to improve dramatically in the right environment.

There are no grounds to assume that Ben Simmons will improve dramatically with us, think about how his game will be hampered by trying to fit next to Wall. And how is Mr Simmons supposed to feel about going from an ECF contender to the Wizards? If he’s not happy with his career prospects here, regardless of contract status he can and will force his way out and lower his value in the process.

Either he outright demands a trade, or worse and more likely the FO will feel pressure to make win-now moves to appease Simmons’ camp, and they’ll end up capping themselves out as a treadmill team.

If Wash couldn’t get 2021/2022 lotto picks for Beal then imo next best thing would be a return similar to the Paul George package .. young cost-controlled talent (ala Shai), a haul of picks far out into the future, and salary relief in the form of expirings. The idea is to steer the franchise into the lottery for 1-2 seasons and try to strike gold with your own homegrown pick, while developing the young talent already in-house.

[Illmatic12]

You mean like Giannis until this season? Simmons' shooting has been basically the same as Giannis' first 6 seasons.

I just don’t see the endgame in trading Beal for Simmons.

If the Wizards are moving Beal it’s because the team around him isn’t good enough to win. Well if the supporting cast isn’t good enough for Beal, it won’t be for Simmons either. He’s not carrying your team to title contention without another superstar teammate - but he makes your floor too high to tank for that superstar in the draft. Star FAs aren’t flocking to DC in free agency ,either.

Beal holds a lot of value to our franchise and league at large, cashing that in to build a Ben Simmons-led treadmill team instead of swinging for the fences would be disappointing. The stacked 2021 draft class has potential stars like Cade Cunningham, Evan Mobley who’ve dominated older competition in front of scouts. The 2022 draft class is the double draft featuring a record number of 5-star prospects. If Wash do eventually field offers for Beal , in any deal they should be seeking unprotected picks from both the 2021 and 2022 drafts , along with cost-controlled young players.

To me, for a team like the Wiz which doesn't have a player than can carry a team to some extent, it's about talent first and then about things like contract, age, production history, and fit. I think Simmons checks all the boxes over Beal except for fit. And fit can be changed.

I disagree , if we don’t have a player who can carry a team then why trade him for another player who fits the same description? Simmons isn’t good enough to be the alpha dog on a championship team, he’s not even close to it. We’d just be spinning our wheels with that trade.

The ideal way to acquire franchise-changing talent is through the draft. If we were trading Beal and rebuilding, I’d rather go for the Memphis Grizzlies route. They bottomed out , landed two franchise cornerstones through the draft and now they’re set for 5-10 years with Ja and JJJ. And all their young guys are on rookie deals so they have cap space to add pieces.

Trading for Simmons only delays the bottoming out process, he isn’t a real superstar but too good for us to outright tank. His contract extension takes up a huge chunk of cap space for the next 5 years. And lastly, who says he would even want to be in DC? Last I checked he has an agent by the name of Rich Paul, you know what that means. If they trade for Simmons and he doesn’t want to stay here , his camp will raise a stink and it could backfire quickly.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

That's an easy yes from me if for no other reason than to essentially go from two max salary positions to one.

I believe there are almost always going to be rookie contract players as good as Beal. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander at 21 years of age just dropped 20 points, 20 rebounds and 10 assists. (He's going to be better than Paul George , the player the Clippers acquired by trading SGA).

I'm all in on stealing Ben Simmons is Philly is foolish to say yes.

Ben Simmons makes so much sense on the Wizards.

Simmons with Bertāns, Mathews, Bryant, Wagner, Brown Jr., McRae, and even Hachimura? He’s MADE for a team like that.

Give Philly: Beal and Wall and take back Simmons and whatever else is needed to make the salaries work.

Beal and Wall are ideal partners for Embiid and Harris and Horford and Richardson et. al.

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I seriously doubt it.

February 6th isn't that far away... I wonder if this is going to be a blockbuster trade deadline or a fizzle?

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Ben Simmons makes so much sense on the Wizards.

Simmons with Bertāns, Mathews, Bryant, Wagner, Brown Jr., McRae, and even Hachimura? He’s MADE for a team like that.

Give Philly: Beal and Wall and take back Simmons and whatever else is needed to make the salaries work.

Beal and Wall are ideal partners for Embiid and Harris and Horford and Richardson et. al.

It would make sense to me as well... just that there isn't a trade that works... You can't keep Harris, Horford, Embiid and add Wall and Beal.

A trade that does work after April 27, 2020:

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7271824

Wall and Beal to Philly
Ben SImmons, Tobias Harris, and Zhaire Smith

This might be even better if Washington includes Rui Hachimura and the 76ers include Matisse Thybulle.

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I agree Philly might want to build around Simmons rather than injury prone Embiid.

I think they could simply move Embiid for his bitter rival Karl Anthony Towns.

Ben Simmons makes so much sense on the Wizards.

Simmons with Bertāns, Mathews, Bryant, Wagner, Brown Jr., McRae, and even Hachimura? He’s MADE for a team like that.

Give Philly: Beal and Wall and take back Simmons and whatever else is needed to make the salaries work.

Beal and Wall are ideal partners for Embiid and Harris and Horford and Richardson et. al.

This trade would have to happen in the offseason since Beal signed an extension this year.

For next league year Wall and Beal combine for $69.5 million, so there is almost certainly no way for the Sixers to keep Embiid, Harris, Horford and Richardson together.

It's either Horford or Harris packaged with Simmons, and I very much doubt that Phily is going to part with a 27 year old Harris no matter how overpaid he is when they have a 34 year old Horford eating up $27.5 million.

So, Horford and Simmons for Wall and Beal it is, and you know what, I could live with that and the Sixers would almost certainly be elevated to serious contender status with Wall, Beal, Harris and Embiid as their core.

What makes a deal even more compelling for the Sixers are the bird rights Washington has for Bertans, the Wizards could make a compelling argument for exchanging Richards along with say Zaire Smith or Thybulle and salary filler as part of a sign and trade.

Embiid's consistent struggles with health might actually force a hand here because who knows how much longer you can count on him remaining relatively healthy.

Now, what I am struggling with is how you are building a championship contender with Simmons as THE guy.

What would a team that indulges him as a point guard look like?

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Wizards give too much giving up the draft pick.

Swap first rounders?

Ben Simmons makes so much sense on the Wizards.

Simmons with Bertāns, Mathews, Bryant, Wagner, Brown Jr., McRae, and even Hachimura? He’s MADE for a team like that.

Give Philly: Beal and Wall and take back Simmons and whatever else is needed to make the salaries work.

Beal and Wall are ideal partners for Embiid and Harris and Horford and Richardson et. al.

It would make sense to me as well... just that there isn't a trade that works... You can't keep Harris, Horford, Embiid and add Wall and Beal.

Yeah... No trade there.

But a healthy Wall, Bryant, Rui, top 6 pick, plus 2021 unprotected pick for Simmons and Horford would save them money and be hard to match.

Wall
Richardson
Thybulle
Harris
Embiid

Bench: Rui, Bryant, Haliburton extends their window and the pieces compliment better

Ish
Beal
Brown
Simmons
Horford

Bench: Bonga, Wagner, Bertans

What team can offer a better combo of win now pieces and young assets/picks without completely dismantling their team?

I see Atlanta, Chicago, and OKC as legit possibilities I guess

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

DCZards, I agree with you.

The culture is way improved. Wall and Beall with what the Wizards already have should be at least respectable in the East (4 or 5 seed).

In the past the Wizards attracted free agent Raptors killer Paul Pierce, effective Trevor Ariza, en fuego Rasual Butler (may he rest in peace). The District of Columbia is a good location with much to offer in the way of culture, history, and nightlife. The Mystics are champs, The Nationals are champs. The Capitals have been champions and they are in pursuit of another Stanley Cup.

I think the Wizards are invariably going to get better, without or with major trades.

You may well be right. OTOH, in 2014-15, the first year GSW won the title, over 53% of their season minutes were played by guys they had drafted. We've never come anywhere near that %. Their 4 guys w/ the highest number of minutes that year were all drafted by GS -- Curry, Thompson, Barnes & Green. This year, 12 of the players on the Celtics are with their first team. Wizards? 5 players.

I mentioned GSW in my opening paragraph as one of the 2-3 contending teams that were built through the draft. But there are not many other examples. Yes, Milwaukee has Giannis, but Middleton, Bledsoe and Lopez were drafted by other teams. As for Boston, two of their top players (Kemba & Haywood) were free agents who started their careers elsewhere. And several of those 12 players you mention are marginal NBA players at best...and will likely have little to do with the Celtics becoming title contenders.

If on the other hand, what you have is a 30 year old player coming off a serious injury who has a super-max contract for the next 3 years but was not a real superstar even at his best, you might as well forget about winning a title. Add a second guy who is also outstanding but not a true superstar yet earns a max salary...? Not happening.

Could I be wrong? Of course! But I'd like to see a counter-example from the past, & I can't come up with one.

I believe there’s a new and improved culture within the Zards organization that we’re already seeing/experiencing. All I’m expecting is for the Wall-Beal led team (along with the development of Brown, Bryant, Rui, Bonga, the 2020 lottery pick, etc.) to take the Zards back to respectability at which point DC could become an appealing destination for a quality free agent or two.

Of course, salaries will be a factor...but don't rule out Ted L. being willing to pay the luxury tax if it means the Zards can field a contending team.

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Horford is old and bound to not live up to his deal for health reasons.

I think giving up that first is too much.

But a healthy Wall, Bryant, Rui, top 6 pick, plus 2021 unprotected pick for Simmons and Horford would save them money and be hard to match.

Man, that would be glorious for us! But I just don't see the Sixers trading Simmons for Wall (a negative value contract) and future prospects. If they trade Simmons, they're going to want win now pieces.

I just don't see how we get Simmons without giving up Beal.

I'd trade Beal for Simmons straight up, and then figure it out after that. I think we'd be stuck with a not-ideal Wall and Simmons combination for a while until Wall because movable in a year or two (after showing he is healthy and as that bad contract gets shorter). But fortunately, Bertans, Brown, Bryant, Wagner and Mathews would all fit nicely alongside Simmons. Hachimura is a question mark. If he can develop a 3-pointer in the offseason, he'd be fine. If he can't, than it might make sense to trade him.

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[queridiculo]

I agree Philly might want to build around Simmons rather than injury prone Embiid.

I am not sure that's true.

Yes, Simmons certainly teases that long term potential and from a pure asset management perspective that probably makes sense.

From an emotional standpoint I would say that Simmons doesn't strike me as a Phily guy, not somebody that has connected with the fanbase like Embiid most certainly has.

The other question is, can you really sell another rebuild to ownership and the fans?

The Sixers have championship aspirations and Embiid to me has proven that he can be the key cog of a real contender if surrounded by the right kind of players.

I'd love to see what Embiid could do with a healthy Wall, Beal and Harris. Throw Bertans into the mix, a bunch of veteran pickups along with either Thybull or Smith and you have what looks like a legit contender to me.

[dckingsfan]

DCZards, I agree with you.

The culture is way improved. Wall and Beall with what the Wizards already have should be at least respectable in the East (4 or 5 seed).

In the past the Wizards attracted free agent Raptors killer Paul Pierce, effective Trevor Ariza, en fuego Rasual Butler (may he rest in peace). The District of Columbia is a good location with much to offer in the way of culture, history, and nightlife. The Mystics are champs, The Nationals are champs. The Capitals have been champions and they are in pursuit of another Stanley Cup.

I think the Wizards are invariably going to get better, without or with major trades.

You may well be right. OTOH, in 2014-15, the first year GSW won the title, over 53% of their season minutes were played by guys they had drafted. We've never come anywhere near that %. Their 4 guys w/ the highest number of minutes that year were all drafted by GS -- Curry, Thompson, Barnes & Green. This year, 12 of the players on the Celtics are with their first team. Wizards? 5 players.

I mentioned GSW in my opening paragraph as one of the 2-3 contending teams that were built through the draft. But there are not many other examples. Yes, Milwaukee has Giannis, but Middleton, Bledsoe and Lopez were drafted by other teams. As for Boston, two of their top players (Kemba & Haywood) were free agents who started their careers elsewhere. And several of those 12 players you mention are marginal NBA players at best...and will likely have little to do with the Celtics becoming title contenders.

If on the other hand, what you have is a 30 year old player coming off a serious injury who has a super-max contract for the next 3 years but was not a real superstar even at his best, you might as well forget about winning a title. Add a second guy who is also outstanding but not a true superstar yet earns a max salary...? Not happening.

Could I be wrong? Of course! But I'd like to see a counter-example from the past, & I can't come up with one.

I believe there’s a new and improved culture within the Zards organization that we’re already seeing/experiencing. All I’m expecting is for the Wall-Beal led team (along with the development of Brown, Bryant, Rui, Bonga, the 2020 lottery pick, etc.) to take the Zards back to respectability at which point DC could become an appealing destination for a quality free agent or two.

Of course, salaries will be a factor...but don't rule out Ted L. being willing to pay the luxury tax if it means the Zards can field a contending team.

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Agreed with the above statement. But I will only be convinced once Beal/Wall play D.

[Ruzious]

I agree Philly might want to build around Simmons rather than injury prone Embiid.

I am not sure that's true.

Yes, Simmons certainly teases that long term potential and from a pure asset management perspective that probably makes sense.

From an emotional standpoint I would say that Simmons doesn't strike me as a Phily guy, not somebody that has connected with the fanbase like Embiid most certainly has.

The other question is, can you really sell another rebuild to ownership and the fans?

The Sixers have championship aspirations and Embiid to me has proven that he can be the key cog of a real contender if surrounded by the right kind of players.

I'd love to see what Embiid could do with a healthy Wall, Beal and Harris. Throw Bertans into the mix , a bunch of veteran pickups along with either Thybull or Smith and you have what looks like a legit contender to me.

I can't imagine that 5some would be affordable.

[queridiculo]

I can't imagine that 5some would be affordable.

Assuming a starting salary of $10 million for Bertans, that quintuple would add up to $142.5.

The 76ers are currently $148.8 million committed to their 2020 roster.

[gambitx777]

The only thing really holding us back from free agents was always E.G. clearly. Just imagine if we got al horford back then instead of Ian.

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[payitforward]

Given that you need "a significant number of minutes played by guys who are better than you would expect someone at their salary level to be" in order to be a really good team, here's an implication one might not have thought of: Avoid trading for guys you think are undervalued if they're expiring.

Bertans is a case in point. Next year, the market is going to pay him what he's worth. If we match such an offer & re-sign him, then he stops being someone who gives us a competitive advantage.

Edit: In fact, this point directly addresses something Zards wrote:

...When I look around the NBA I see a Toronto team that won a championship by renting Kawhi for a year....

They signed Kawhi, but they couldn't keep him -- for just the reason I mention above. He made $23+m the (expiring) year he played in Toronto. There was no way they were going to be able to keep him. Now... they didn't trade for him, they didn't give anything up. & they did win a title! So... great move on their part.

PIF, you're wrong on two points here. They DID trade for Leonard. They gave up DeRozan, Jakob Poeltl and a 2019 first round pick for Kawhi and Danny Green. (I assume you forgot that.) And Toronto tried very hard to keep Leonard. They were clearly willing to pay the lux tax, if necessary, to keep Kawhi. So it's wrong to say "they couldn't keep him." He simply chose LAC over the Raptors.

Yes -- I had that all wrong. Forgot the entire transaction! But, honestly, I don't think it affects my point overall point.

Look at Toronto's current roster: had they been able to keep Kawhi, they would now have a $157m payroll -- & next year Siakam's salary jumps from $2.5m to almost $30m.

That's $180m if the other high-priced guys (Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka) stay around, which means Gasol & Ibaka would be gone next year.

Ujiri is a smart dude; he rebuilds on the fly. Toronto has 7 players on rookie contracts this year.

Our problem in a similar situation in the Wall/Beal era would be far worse. Next year Wall/Beal will cost us $70m. Add Kawhi, & we are at $104m for 3 guys. The following year it's $115m for 3 guys. The following year.... So, maybe a superstar FA would be willing to come here. But it would not be possible to pay him.

I'm sure Ted would go into the lux tax for a title -- but no owner is signing on to go into the lux tax 3 years in a row! &, in fact, Toronto could afford to go into the lux tax to win a title, because they had Pascal Siakam at $1.5m. Nor could we construct the rest of their roster to the level they were at with Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka, Green, Powell & Van Vleet -- all in addition to Kawhi & Siakam.

If we could, fine -- go for it. But, I don't see how we could get there in the Wall/Beal era. & that's the point.

[payitforward]

This thread is getting pretty far-fetched! Does anyone think any of the proposed multi-player deals w/ Philly is really possible?

As CCJ says, we are going to get better. But we're going to do it patiently, step by step, from within. We're not trading for some savior & we're not signing one as a FA either. Hey, we have to worry about whether we'll be able to retain Davis Bertans! We have a very difficult salary situation, & I can't see how it goes away any time soon.

If we turn out to be genuinely good, say in 2 years, i.e. a 50-win team (which seems extremely unlikely, btw), then perhaps it makes sense to make a full-bore effort at a title. Maybe.

Perhaps a little visit to reality would be useful: for the five years before 2018-19 when the Raptors won the title, they averaged almost 53 wins a season. In 2018-19, they won 58 games.

This year, with Kawhi gone & Danny Green gone, they are on pace to win 53 games.

[gambitx777]

We are just bored lol and we still have a few weeks till Feb so just having fun. But it will settle in and the Ian and bertains and McRae talk will start back up

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[payitforward]

Orlando has signed Gary Clark to a 10-day contract.

Productive player....

I'm sure some of you remember that both natp4 (where are you, son?) & I were very high on Gary Clark as a guy to acquire either in R2 or undrafted. That's how Houston got him. As you know, he was waived last week, having got caught in a numbers game.

He just played his first game off the bench for Orlando a 1-point win on the road against the Lakers (who were 16-4 at home going into the game).

Clark played 20 minutes. He went 4-6 including 2 3-pointers (10 points on 6 shots), grabbed 3 offensive rebounds & 1 defensive board, & blocked a shot. Spilt milk, but he is just the kind of player we need.