Is Zach LaVine a Winner?

[TheGOATRises007]

Random scout that randomly pops up on bleacherreport:

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Some of these tweets are pure nonsense.

Lavine is an efficient scorer for all his faults.

[JimmyJammer]

30% of our field goals have been taken by Dunn, Thad, and Coby; 3 guys that are legitimately at the bottom of the NBA efficiency wise.

Which brings me back to another point of mine that Lauri needs to be more aggressive/take more shots, but he doesn't have to compete with Zach for shots, Dunn/Thad/Coby should just take less.

Bingo! Let's design a system where our worst (least efficient) scorers get to handle the ball and try to put up points at a higher frequency than our 1b/second option last year. Brilliant!

To some degree, the defenses are forcing this. If you were gameplanning for the Bulls, your goal would be to get Dunn to shoot from the outside. IMO, its really hard to be a perimeter player in today's NBA and not have a 3p shot. If you don't, teams know it and adjust.

The Otto injury really hurt the team but even then, they weren't playing that great with him.

Otto was just getting heated up when he got injured. He was red hot in the same game he got hurt. It's a shame to see him get hurt at the time that he did. That has kind of screwed up everything, as I had anticipated it would have.

[Jcool0]

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[dice]

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i'm sorry, having only 2 categories (guards/frontcourt) is goofy. should be PG/wing/big. jaylen brown and jimmy butler in separate categories doesn't make much sense

wings: giannis, jimmy, middleton, harris, brown
bigs: embiid, siakam, tatum, bam
PG: simmons, lowry, kembaORbledsoeORvanvleet

i'd have no problem with sliding sabonis in there to give the pacers a rep

[MrSparkle]

Ron Awsumb’s points are valid. I can also see Chicago FO being hell bent on making Zach an all-star. All in all it is pathetic. Though I will say he had improved. Not enough to be a 1 (or frankly even a 2) option, but certainly a rich man’s Cavs JR Smith. I’d give the ASG cause the rest of the East guard situation has been sub-par. Still i don’t think Zach is a favorite over these guys:

Trae, Kemba, Simmons, Brown, injured Kyrie, Beal

And he’s a little favorable over Bledsoe, Brogdon, Dinwiddie... except these guys are actually winning. Seeing as there are no superstar two-way guards in the East, Zach has a shot, but I’d trade him anytime for any of the 6 in the first list.. which means beyond circumstantial stats and injuries (let’s not forget Oladipo is out, and Jimmy kinda plays guard half the time), Zach is a fringe star at best.

Bulls are coached awfully, and it seems guys are all playing to their weaknesses (Dunn and Thad spot up 3P shooters, zero midrange for Lauri, Sato and Dunn low usage for creating passes, etc.).

Zach is 24, still improving, and has an elite work ethic to god with his elite 3 ball shooting and creation and elite athleticism. His IQ is still bad but has moved up from awful. Same for his D.

LAVINE HAS NOTHING TO WORK WITH. Lauri sucks and the coaching is even worse with examples you listed.

If we were healthy we’d be close to .500
If Lauri maintained and didn’t decline big time we are close to .500
If Boylen wasn’t the worst in game coach in the league we are close to .500
Instead all are true and we aren’t close to being .500

I don't disagree with most of what you said, except (IMO) Zach is in the ball-park of 7th best guard in the East, which makes him a fringe all-star pick (6 guard spots)... Like I said, Kyrie's missed most the season, and Trae and Beal have the worst defensive teams in the league, so their teams are on par if not worse than the Bulls... So Zach has a good shot... But putting aside the past 2 months of injuries, I'd take those 6 I bolded over Zach.

Now if this was the West, he'd have completely no chance... and that's including the fact that Curry and Klay are both out for the year. Harden, Paul, Mitchell, Booker, Lillard, Fox, Shai... I'd hear a case against Westbrook, D'Lo, DeRozan... But those guys can create offense plays that Zach can not.

If Zach does make the all-star game, it'd be a circumstantial nomination. I don't think he's a bad player; he's the best Bulls player by a large margin. But a 15-27 record sounds about right for a mediocre roster and a #1 scoring option who doesn't defend or create at a good level.

He's also having a great month, but you do have to consider that his first month was pretty awful.

[MrSparkle]

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i'm sorry, having only 2 categories (guards/frontcourt) is goofy. should be PG/wing/big. jaylen brown and jimmy butler in separate categories doesn't make much sense

wings: giannis, jimmy, middleton, harris, brown
bigs: embiid, siakam, tatum, bam
PG: simmons, lowry, kembaORbledsoeORvanvleet

i'd have no problem with sliding sabonis in there to give the pacers a rep

I figure they should just entirely ditch categories. It's a joke competition, atleast put the top-5 vs top-5.

[dice]

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i'm sorry, having only 2 categories (guards/frontcourt) is goofy. should be PG/wing/big. jaylen brown and jimmy butler in separate categories doesn't make much sense

wings: giannis, jimmy, middleton, harris, brown
bigs: embiid, siakam, tatum, bam
PG: simmons, lowry, kembaORbledsoeORvanvleet

i'd have no problem with sliding sabonis in there to give the pacers a rep

I figure they should just entirely ditch categories. It's a joke competition, atleast put the top-5 vs top-5.

if the value of the all-star game was entirely as an exhibition, then sure. hell, if that were the case, just let the fans vote for their favorite 20 players w/o regard to position or conference (which would probably result in alex caruso and melo making the team). then have the top 2 vote getters draft their 10 man rosters on live TV right before tipoff...

but there's the honor of being an all-star at stake, including contract bonuses. which, frankly, i feel is more important than the game itself. i have much more interest in who makes the all-star team than actually watching the game

[StunnerKO]

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[Hold That]

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

[Onibuh]

btw. Zachs best games were with other Players stepping up and helping with scoring. Lavine looked better Overall when Lauri was hitting his shots or when White has his groove.
He's carrying the whole load and his advanced numbers will look worse, while pts go up.

Or maybe he took more of an off-ball role and reduced his tough shots? His advanced numbers are the best they have ever been.

That's basically what I'm saying. When Lauri Plays bad and/or White does Nothing, it's all on Lavine. It's about him creating for himself or Nothing happens.

Zach can Play different, he just isn't asked to and he is needed in those games to Play his hero Iso. He Always Looks that much better when others score too. Coincidence? not really

[J_Cotton]

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Of course he needs. I bet those 4 other guys on the court wearing the same colours would be more than willing to help Zack to get the wins and stats he needs to make it to the ASG. If he wants some help it's there for him to use. As a primary ball handler he can help others so they can help him. He should start giving away at least 5 of his contested shot attempts to see if he can get more in return. Wouldn't be surprised if giving out those 5 attempts to be used by the system comes back to him as something like +2 AST, +1-2 free looks and more wins.

[ZOMG]

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Of course he needs. I bet those 4 other guys on the court wearing the same colours would be more than willing to help Zack to get the wins and stats he needs to make it to the ASG. If he wants some help it's there for him to use. As a primary ball handler he can help others so they can help him. He should start giving away at least 5 of his contested shot attempts to see if he can get more in return. Wouldn't be surprised if putting those 5 attempts through the systems comes back to him as something like +2 AST, +1-2 free looks and more wins.

Bingo!

[BigJimFinn]

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Of course he needs. I bet those 4 other guys on the court wearing the same colours would be more than willing to help Zack to get the wins and stats he needs to make it to the ASG. If he wants some help it's there for him to use. As a primary ball handler he can help others so they can help him. He should start giving away at least 5 of his contested shot attempts to see if he can get more in return. Wouldn't be surprised if putting those 5 attempts through the systems comes back to him as something like +2 AST, +1-2 free looks and more wins.

That would absolutely be true, if only the Bulls had an offensive system. In the current mess, only guys who can hunt their own shots off the dribble (Zach, Coby, Thad to an extent) can look good, or look awful when their shot isn't falling. I don't really begrudge LaVine doing what he is good at and trying to achieve personal success, I'd just rather not watch it.

[Dez]

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Of course he needs. I bet those 4 other guys on the court wearing the same colours would be more than willing to help Zack to get the wins and stats he needs to make it to the ASG. If he wants some help it's there for him to use. As a primary ball handler he can help others so they can help him. He should start giving away at least 5 of his contested shot attempts to see if he can get more in return. Wouldn't be surprised if giving out those 5 attempts to be used by the system comes back to him as something like +2 AST, +1-2 free looks and more wins.

Well they haven't yet this fallacy that LaVine is the problem really needs to stop, the guy is playing very well and is absolutely the least of the Bulls problems.

[Hold That]

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Of course he needs. I bet those 4 other guys on the court wearing the same colours would be more than willing to help Zack to get the wins and stats he needs to make it to the ASG. If he wants some help it's there for him to use. As a primary ball handler he can help others so they can help him. He should start giving away at least 5 of his contested shot attempts to see if he can get more in return. Wouldn't be surprised if giving out those 5 attempts to be used by the system comes back to him as something like +2 AST, +1-2 free looks and more wins.

Do you really believe Zach averaging 2 more assist and maybe 3 less shot attempts is the answer to our problems?

The roster isn’t that talented period.. He needs more help.

[Clocian]

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Simply put. Lavine needs more help

Of course he needs. I bet those 4 other guys on the court wearing the same colours would be more than willing to help Zack to get the wins and stats he needs to make it to the ASG. If he wants some help it's there for him to use. As a primary ball handler he can help others so they can help him. He should start giving away at least 5 of his contested shot attempts to see if he can get more in return. Wouldn't be surprised if giving out those 5 attempts to be used by the system comes back to him as something like +2 AST, +1-2 free looks and more wins.

Do you really believe Zach averaging 2 more assist and maybe 3 less shot attempts is the answer to our problems?

The roster isn’t that talented period.. He needs more help.

We should trade zach. I wanna see what his haters have to say once their beloved hero Lauri is given the keys and the team becomes even worse

[bearadonisdna]

Among All nba players who have played 40 games or more, Zach is 10th in PER.
This includes all bench bigs and all other advantageous PER recipients.

He is available at an elite rate and performing to pretty elite efficiency standards.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_advanced.html

[Red Larrivee]

I've been a Wendell defender and his metrics are good. His defensive acumen is underrated. That said, he isn't big or athletic, he doesn't have a great shot or handle, his hands are poor, etc. I don't see some super upside with him. I think that teams could get a guy like him to finish off a roster without a lot of trouble.

As far as trading young players, the Bulls' normal route is to hold onto them until they have no value. That's not how you win in the NBA. You have to figure out who works before other teams do and maximize value. Beyond that, I'm not advocating dumping them. IMO, you need to get real value.

You could've said the same thing about Joakim Noah.

I don't expect Wendell to ever dominate games on his talent or some natural trait, but he can absolutely be a huge asset to winning based on his fundamentals, timing, and advanced defensive acumen. I think he's better on offense than he's shown to this point as well, particularly with his passing ability.

The fact that the Bulls defensive system has completely broken down without Carter shows the value he's accumulated to this point. Untouchable? No, but he's not a player I would be looking to move.

[coldfish]

I've been a Wendell defender and his metrics are good. His defensive acumen is underrated. That said, he isn't big or athletic, he doesn't have a great shot or handle, his hands are poor, etc. I don't see some super upside with him. I think that teams could get a guy like him to finish off a roster without a lot of trouble.

As far as trading young players, the Bulls' normal route is to hold onto them until they have no value. That's not how you win in the NBA. You have to figure out who works before other teams do and maximize value. Beyond that, I'm not advocating dumping them. IMO, you need to get real value.

You could've said the same thing about Joakim Noah.

I don't expect Wendell to ever dominate games on his talent or some natural trait, but he can absolutely be a huge asset to winning based on his fundamentals, timing, and advanced defensive acumen. I think he's better on offense than he's shown to this point as well, particularly with his passing ability.

The fact that the Bulls defensive system has completely broken down without Carter shows the value he's accumulated to this point. Untouchable? No, but he's not a player I would be looking to move.

Here is the post that started this side bar:

IMO, the Bulls have one quality piece. Zach.

Its hard to evaluate how he would play on a winner, surrounded by good players, with a good coach. That said, his skills, size and athleticism are undeniable. As others have noted, his flaw was largely his decision making on both sides of the court and that seems to be improving this year.

If I was GM, I would strongly be considering trading everyone else for a second core piece and then using the draft and free agency to fill out a roster. I think that Zach + star level player + quality vets + good coach could make some noise.

Do you disagree? To rephrase, I would be willing to move Coby, Wendell, Lauri and and amount of filler to get a star level player with the intent of pairing that person with Zach. I'm not looking to dump anyone.

Who is that player? I dunno. This season seems to be a very quiet one on that front. Possibly because so many teams who have those stars think they can win this year or have a path to building a winner. If that is the case, Chicago should keep its young guys and hope it starts to click in. IMHO, just having a mediocre SF actually playing would have this team's record at a respectable level.

Edit add: I just quickly looked at the NBA PER list and the only guy I could see moving out of the top 50 in the next 12 months is KAT. Its a seller's market right now.

[Jcool0]

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