Fanbase Rookie Approval Rating: Collin Sexton

[Stillwater]

So it sounds like the majority of Cavs fans on here see Sexton as the problem.
You could not be farther from correct if you examine the situation clearly.
He is not trying to facilitate first score later for a reason... key and possibly the only reason being the Coaches all want him to improve even further as a scorer first facilitator 2nd and him being in the sl has to do more with him having to face starting defenders to get the reps.
If they were in the business of winning this season they would not have hired Beilein for starters and they would have brought in a veteran pg via trade...oh wait they have one in Brandon Knight and he has not played much at all despite having an absolute killer training camp where everyone was excited about it. Proving even more they are committed to developing the two lottery picks above all other things.
Garland will be the facilitator if things work out with him,because I doubt he could do much else with his lack of athleticism and size but he is earning it of late so I hope it works out for him and he can actually be a starter in this league. However this notion that somehow Sexton doesn't know how to play is shortsighted given everything he does well is based on what he brings to the table as a scorer not as a facilitator. If the team is frustrated they are not getting the ball and the coaches don't want him to give it up...their anger is misguided.
imo Sexton has to get his long range shooting back in check and he doesn't need to worry about facilitating at all.

[JonFromVA]

He is not trying to facilitate first score later for a reason... key and possibly the only reason being the Coaches all want him to improve even further as a scorer first facilitator 2nd and him being in the sl has to do more with him having to face starting defenders to get the reps.

Even if you're right (and I've seen scant evidence of it) this is at best a chicken & the egg argument.

What came first? Collin's score first attitude or the coaching staff's encouragement to score first?

We have enough history on Collin, I think most of us know the answer here.

When evaluating a PG prospect you should never have to look beyond the PG himself to determine why he's not passing, not generating assists, making turnovers, not making his teammates better, not getting his teammates in better position, etc, etc.

Any PG who has a clue what they're doing can manage all of this. Any PG who cannot, has a lot to learn or ... simply isn't a PG.

[Revenged25]

He is not trying to facilitate first score later for a reason... key and possibly the only reason being the Coaches all want him to improve even further as a scorer first facilitator 2nd and him being in the sl has to do more with him having to face starting defenders to get the reps.

Even if you're right (and I've seen scant evidence of it) this is at best a chicken & the egg argument.

What came first? Collin's score first attitude or the coaching staff's encouragement to score first?

We have enough history on Collin, I think most of us know the answer here.

When evaluating a PG prospect you should never have to look beyond the PG himself to determine why he's not passing, not generating assists, making turnovers, not making his teammates better, not getting his teammates in better position, etc, etc.

Any PG who has a clue what they're doing can manage all of this. Any PG who cannot, has a lot to learn or ... simply isn't a PG.

Garland is the point guard. Beilein said recently he’s one of two on the roster. Matthew Dellavedova is the other. There are responsibilities that come with playing that position -- first and foremost, being the conductor on offense.

While Beilein has talked about wanting Sexton’s assist numbers to go up, the coach has also repeatedly discussed Sexton’s scoring potential.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2019/11/cleveland-cavaliers-coach-john-beilein-sends-early-season-message-to-darius-garland-and-collin-sexton.html

Here is some evidence, this was before the Clarkson trade which is means his need to rely on Sexton's scoring potential has only increased. I don't think anyone would argue that we don't want Sexton to improve his assist numbers, but it's obvious Beilein is viewing Sexton as the off-ball scoring guard, not the facilitator.

[JonFromVA]

He is not trying to facilitate first score later for a reason... key and possibly the only reason being the Coaches all want him to improve even further as a scorer first facilitator 2nd and him being in the sl has to do more with him having to face starting defenders to get the reps.

Even if you're right (and I've seen scant evidence of it) this is at best a chicken & the egg argument.

What came first? Collin's score first attitude or the coaching staff's encouragement to score first?

We have enough history on Collin, I think most of us know the answer here.

When evaluating a PG prospect you should never have to look beyond the PG himself to determine why he's not passing, not generating assists, making turnovers, not making his teammates better, not getting his teammates in better position, etc, etc.

Any PG who has a clue what they're doing can manage all of this. Any PG who cannot, has a lot to learn or ... simply isn't a PG.

Garland is the point guard. Beilein said recently he’s one of two on the roster. Matthew Dellavedova is the other. There are responsibilities that come with playing that position -- first and foremost, being the conductor on offense.

While Beilein has talked about wanting Sexton’s assist numbers to go up, the coach has also repeatedly discussed Sexton’s scoring potential.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2019/11/cleveland-cavaliers-coach-john-beilein-sends-early-season-message-to-darius-garland-and-collin-sexton.html

Here is some evidence, this was before the Clarkson trade which is means his need to rely on Sexton's scoring potential has only increased. I don't think anyone would argue that we don't want Sexton to improve his assist numbers, but it's obvious Beilein is viewing Sexton as the off-ball scoring guard, not the facilitator.

But again, chicken or the egg?

Seems to me a case of letting a young player play to his strengths, rather than force him to work on his weaknesses.

Let's take a look at the evidence, and we don't even have to look at what Beilein has done.

Ty Lue was fired because he wouldn't start Collin over George Hill. After George Hill was traded Collin was given the reigns of the team. He initially started with JR Smith who openly revolted and had to be sent home. This went on until February 11th when Brandon Knight was inserted in to the starting lineup to play with Collin and have him play more off the ball.

They Cavs could have drafted someoene else, they could have brought Darius off the bench, they could have asked Collin to run the point while Darius acclimated. They didn't and I think it's pretty clear why and it's hardly some new revelation.

[Stillwater]

Even if you're right (and I've seen scant evidence of it) this is at best a chicken & the egg argument.

What came first? Collin's score first attitude or the coaching staff's encouragement to score first?

We have enough history on Collin, I think most of us know the answer here.

When evaluating a PG prospect you should never have to look beyond the PG himself to determine why he's not passing, not generating assists, making turnovers, not making his teammates better, not getting his teammates in better position, etc, etc.

Any PG who has a clue what they're doing can manage all of this. Any PG who cannot, has a lot to learn or ... simply isn't a PG.

Garland is the point guard. Beilein said recently he’s one of two on the roster. Matthew Dellavedova is the other. There are responsibilities that come with playing that position -- first and foremost, being the conductor on offense.

While Beilein has talked about wanting Sexton’s assist numbers to go up, the coach has also repeatedly discussed Sexton’s scoring potential.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2019/11/cleveland-cavaliers-coach-john-beilein-sends-early-season-message-to-darius-garland-and-collin-sexton.html

Here is some evidence, this was before the Clarkson trade which is means his need to rely on Sexton's scoring potential has only increased. I don't think anyone would argue that we don't want Sexton to improve his assist numbers, but it's obvious Beilein is viewing Sexton as the off-ball scoring guard, not the facilitator.

But again, chicken or the egg?

Seems to me a case of letting a young player play to his strengths, rather than force him to work on his weaknesses.

Let's take a look at the evidence, and we don't even have to look at what Beilein has done.

Ty Lue was fired because he wouldn't start Collin over George Hill. After George Hill was traded Collin was given the reigns of the team. He initially started with JR Smith who openly revolted and had to be sent home. This went on until February 11th when Brandon Knight was inserted in to the starting lineup to play with Collin and have him play more off the ball.

They Cavs could have drafted someoene else, they could have brought Darius off the bench, they could have asked Collin to run the point while Darius acclimated. They didn't and I think it's pretty clear why and it's hardly some new revelation.

So let me get this straight...you think they are or are not trying to develop him to be a point guard despite him doing all kinds of things that suggest otherwise and them saying as much that it's their plan for him?
I mean look it is reasonable for you to assume they drafted him to be the pg of the future despite not being proven as a floor general in college, but I think it was pretty clear they drafted him above some better pg options because he had an incredibly high ceiling given a few things one being his ridiculous motor and they were not interested in getting a pg as much as a high ceiling prospect.
If you prefer to feel they drafted him to be a pg and then turned around and took DG because Sexton isn't one thats your choice. I don't think that was ever the feeling and it was more likely they again wanted to draft a high ceiling guard who complimented Sexton by being a more pass first oriented prospect and one more likely to handle that job given it had become apparent as last season went on that Sexton was becoming capable of playing next to veteran guards who were just happy to have a job instead ones coming off years of finals experience who wanted no part of a rebuild and certainly no part of a combo guard ushered into a starting gig.

I think at the end of the day they DID NOT draft Garland to replace Sexton because Sexton didn't become what they had picked him to be or some other made up story... I think THEY DID draft Garland as the prospect they felt was the BPA regardless of fit and now that he has finally started to look like he might have been people are starting to feel Sexton is a dead fish.

If they flip Sexton for a good player that is a better fit I will live with their decision, but if they move him for reasons you are suggesting to some degree, like somehow they came to their senses after his outstanding 2nd half of last season and decided he was not going to stay a key part of the process then I think you get f'd every which way but down.

I will take Sexton on the roster as a backup or a 6th man and hope if he gets better than Garland does that Sexton doesn't about face this org for stopping the process to appease a few fans who are confused over them trading him for a "nice piece" and watching him take over the 6th man scoring title for another better run org.

[Revenged25]

So let me get this straight...you think they are or are not trying to develop him to be a point guard despite him doing all kinds of things that suggest otherwise and them saying as much that it's their plan for him?
I mean look it is reasonable for you to assume they drafted him to be the pg of the future despite not being proven as a floor general in college, but I think it was pretty clear they drafted him above some better pg options because he had an incredibly high ceiling given a few things one being his ridiculous motor and they were not interested in getting a pg as much as a high ceiling prospect.
If you prefer to feel they drafted him to be a pg and then turned around and took DG because Sexton isn't one thats your choice. I don't think that was ever the feeling and it was more likely they again wanted to draft a high ceiling guard who complimented Sexton by being a more pass first oriented prospect and one more likely to handle that job given it had become apparent as last season went on that Sexton was becoming capable of playing next to veteran guards who were just happy to have a job instead ones coming off years of finals experience who wanted no part of a rebuild and certainly no part of a combo guard ushered into a starting gig.

I think at the end of the day they DID NOT draft Garland to replace Sexton because Sexton didn't become what they had picked him to be or some other made up story... I think THEY DID draft Garland as the prospect they felt was the BPA regardless of fit and now that he has finally started to look like he might have been people are starting to feel Sexton is a dead fish.

If they flip Sexton for a good player that is a better fit I will live with their decision, but if they move him for reasons you are suggesting to some degree, like somehow they came to their senses after his outstanding 2nd half of last season and decided he was not going to stay a key part of the process then I think you get f'd every which way but down.

I will take Sexton on the roster as a backup or a 6th man and hope if he gets better than Garland does that Sexton doesn't about face this org for stopping the process to appease a few fans who are confused over them trading him for a "nice piece" and watching him take over the 6th man scoring title for another better run org.

For me to trade Sexton, I would need another high ceiling prospect to even consider it and pretty sure the only one that could even remotely be had right now that would fit that criteria is Mo Bamba.

[Stillwater]

So let me get this straight...you think they are or are not trying to develop him to be a point guard despite him doing all kinds of things that suggest otherwise and them saying as much that it's their plan for him?
I mean look it is reasonable for you to assume they drafted him to be the pg of the future despite not being proven as a floor general in college, but I think it was pretty clear they drafted him above some better pg options because he had an incredibly high ceiling given a few things one being his ridiculous motor and they were not interested in getting a pg as much as a high ceiling prospect.
If you prefer to feel they drafted him to be a pg and then turned around and took DG because Sexton isn't one thats your choice. I don't think that was ever the feeling and it was more likely they again wanted to draft a high ceiling guard who complimented Sexton by being a more pass first oriented prospect and one more likely to handle that job given it had become apparent as last season went on that Sexton was becoming capable of playing next to veteran guards who were just happy to have a job instead ones coming off years of finals experience who wanted no part of a rebuild and certainly no part of a combo guard ushered into a starting gig.

I think at the end of the day they DID NOT draft Garland to replace Sexton because Sexton didn't become what they had picked him to be or some other made up story... I think THEY DID draft Garland as the prospect they felt was the BPA regardless of fit and now that he has finally started to look like he might have been people are starting to feel Sexton is a dead fish.

If they flip Sexton for a good player that is a better fit I will live with their decision, but if they move him for reasons you are suggesting to some degree, like somehow they came to their senses after his outstanding 2nd half of last season and decided he was not going to stay a key part of the process then I think you get f'd every which way but down.

I will take Sexton on the roster as a backup or a 6th man and hope if he gets better than Garland does that Sexton doesn't about face this org for stopping the process to appease a few fans who are confused over them trading him for a "nice piece" and watching him take over the 6th man scoring title for another better run org.

For me to trade Sexton, I would need another high ceiling prospect to even consider it and pretty sure the only one that could even remotely be had right now that would fit that criteria is Mo Bamba.

yeah I could live with that if they thought Bamba would ever have an inside game...that maybe he just needs some better coaching, but right now he looks to be bashful to the point of being only a perimeter oriented player and it's a bit concerning given that wasted length with no presence in the paint and makes me very concerned about his work ethic.
I would not trade Sexton at all, I like his upside that much... even if he has dropped his high % from deep this year focusing his summer on strength and defense.

[JonFromVA]

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2019/11/cleveland-cavaliers-coach-john-beilein-sends-early-season-message-to-darius-garland-and-collin-sexton.html

Here is some evidence, this was before the Clarkson trade which is means his need to rely on Sexton's scoring potential has only increased. I don't think anyone would argue that we don't want Sexton to improve his assist numbers, but it's obvious Beilein is viewing Sexton as the off-ball scoring guard, not the facilitator.

But again, chicken or the egg?

Seems to me a case of letting a young player play to his strengths, rather than force him to work on his weaknesses.

Let's take a look at the evidence, and we don't even have to look at what Beilein has done.

Ty Lue was fired because he wouldn't start Collin over George Hill. After George Hill was traded Collin was given the reigns of the team. He initially started with JR Smith who openly revolted and had to be sent home. This went on until February 11th when Brandon Knight was inserted in to the starting lineup to play with Collin and have him play more off the ball.

They Cavs could have drafted someoene else, they could have brought Darius off the bench, they could have asked Collin to run the point while Darius acclimated. They didn't and I think it's pretty clear why and it's hardly some new revelation.

So let me get this straight...you think they are or are not trying to develop him to be a point guard despite him doing all kinds of things that suggest otherwise and them saying as much that it's their plan for him?
I mean look it is reasonable for you to assume they drafted him to be the pg of the future despite not being proven as a floor general in college, but I think it was pretty clear they drafted him above some better pg options because he had an incredibly high ceiling given a few things one being his ridiculous motor and they were not interested in getting a pg as much as a high ceiling prospect.
If you prefer to feel they drafted him to be a pg and then turned around and took DG because Sexton isn't one thats your choice. I don't think that was ever the feeling and it was more likely they again wanted to draft a high ceiling guard who complimented Sexton by being a more pass first oriented prospect and one more likely to handle that job given it had become apparent as last season went on that Sexton was becoming capable of playing next to veteran guards who were just happy to have a job instead ones coming off years of finals experience who wanted no part of a rebuild and certainly no part of a combo guard ushered into a starting gig.

I think at the end of the day they DID NOT draft Garland to replace Sexton because Sexton didn't become what they had picked him to be or some other made up story... I think THEY DID draft Garland as the prospect they felt was the BPA regardless of fit and now that he has finally started to look like he might have been people are starting to feel Sexton is a dead fish.

If they flip Sexton for a good player that is a better fit I will live with their decision, but if they move him for reasons you are suggesting to some degree, like somehow they came to their senses after his outstanding 2nd half of last season and decided he was not going to stay a key part of the process then I think you get f'd every which way but down.

I will take Sexton on the roster as a backup or a 6th man and hope if he gets better than Garland does that Sexton doesn't about face this org for stopping the process to appease a few fans who are confused over them trading him for a "nice piece" and watching him take over the 6th man scoring title for another better run org.

Yes, I think your getting my POV, but can you clarify something for me?

1) what are the things that suggest they are still trying to develop Collin as a PG?

2) who taken after Collin was a better high-upside PG prospect?

And to throw out some more of my thoughts:

- I don't think they wanted to build a tiny backcourt.
- I think they listened to Avery Johnson too much
- I think DG regretted not drafting Victor Oladipo (another hard worker) too much
- I don't think they felt they could risk drafting someone who wouldn't play (Michael Porter Jr)
- I think they quickly discovered that Collin wasn't just raw, he has no feel for playing PG
- I think they course corrected by drafting Darius - whom they were much higher on than other players left in the draft
- I think they drafted Kevin Porter Jr and Darius Windler to give them options in case Collin turned in to a 6th man or was traded
- I think they quickly discovered that Darius had a much more advanced feel for the game and his teammates
- I think they went all in with Darius very quickly even though he wasn't physically or mentally ready to start in the NBA
- I think they hoped they could still make something work with Collin ala Portland or as a 6th man or as part of Beilein's offense
- I think they fear this could be more of a Steph Curry + Monta Ellis situation where Monta had to go so Steph could become Steph
- I think Collin is still very young/raw and giving up on him at this point would be very risky, but team chemistry may win out

And fwiw, Warriors fans BOOED Joe Lacob relentlessly for trading Monta Ellis for broken down Andrew Bogut while they were trying to hang Chris Mullin's jersey; but as it turned out ... it was not only the right move, it was a brilliant move.

Which isn't to say it will play out that way for the Cavs, but as they look at where they're at and try to project where they're going, they will need to decide where they sit on the scale of "Can this still work?" or "Do we need to break them up, ASAP?"

Enough? lol

btw, I appreciate your views/opinions and my hope is actually that you'll express them in more detail. Neither of us will likely ever convince the other, but only time will tell who's right.

[jbk1234]

He is not trying to facilitate first score later for a reason... key and possibly the only reason being the Coaches all want him to improve even further as a scorer first facilitator 2nd and him being in the sl has to do more with him having to face starting defenders to get the reps.

Even if you're right (and I've seen scant evidence of it) this is at best a chicken & the egg argument.

What came first? Collin's score first attitude or the coaching staff's encouragement to score first?

We have enough history on Collin, I think most of us know the answer here.

When evaluating a PG prospect you should never have to look beyond the PG himself to determine why he's not passing, not generating assists, making turnovers, not making his teammates better, not getting his teammates in better position, etc, etc.

Any PG who has a clue what they're doing can manage all of this. Any PG who cannot, has a lot to learn or ... simply isn't a PG.

Garland is the point guard. Beilein said recently he’s one of two on the roster. Matthew Dellavedova is the other. There are responsibilities that come with playing that position -- first and foremost, being the conductor on offense.

While Beilein has talked about wanting Sexton’s assist numbers to go up, the coach has also repeatedly discussed Sexton’s scoring potential.

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2019/11/cleveland-cavaliers-coach-john-beilein-sends-early-season-message-to-darius-garland-and-collin-sexton.html

Here is some evidence, this was before the Clarkson trade which is means his need to rely on Sexton's scoring potential has only increased. I don't think anyone would argue that we don't want Sexton to improve his assist numbers, but it's obvious Beilein is viewing Sexton as the off-ball scoring guard, not the facilitator.

It's not that Sexton isn't a facilitator. It's that he doesn't have a good feel for the game IMO. He relies, entirely, upon his speed and ability to get the rim. At a certain point, the rest of the league figures that out.

The best threats in the NBA are triple threats: shoot, drive, or pass. Sexton really prefers to drive, and once he does, he's never passing. There's no point in having 3 point shooters on floor with guys like that for extended minutes.

It's ridiculous how other teams defend the Cavs when Sexton gets in that mode. It's ridiculous watching Sexton get his shot blocked 4 out of 5 possessions because the other team has a seven foot center who isn't worried about Sexton passing. It also leads to other guys abandoning the offense because they're frustrated and unsure when they'll get the ball back.

I have concerns about where this is headed if he stays in the starting line up.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[JonFromVA]

Collin should be able to see things better as he gets more experience, but the question going in to the deadline is whether the FO has the patience to wait and see.

Combo guards typically develop at least a reliable 2 man game.

[Jamaaliver]

An excerpt from The Athletic.

What do we make of Collin Sexton 1.5 years into his career? He came in as a point guard project for the Cleveland Cavaliers. He had a fairly stable first season in the NBA. Then the Cavs drafted Darius Garland with the fifth pick in the 2019 draft, and that caused Sexton to slide over to the 2-guard position. But at just 6-foot-1, using Sexton as a shooting guard moving forward doesn’t really make sense.

He is a good scorer though...It isn’t the most efficient scoring, but it’s pretty good for a 21-year old. I’m just not sure what else Sexton does, and how you cultivate that into a better all-around player. Maybe he can be a better version of Jordan Clarkson...Regardless, there is good talent and potential there with him. The Cavs, or someone else, just needs to figure out how to harness that.

[Martinez]

Why does everyone knock his scoring efficiency?

[JonFromVA]

Why does everyone knock his scoring efficiency?

Collins efficiency has been climbing since he started sinking 3's ... perhaps Harper didn't notice? Shots blocked is his current struggle.

[jbk1234]

Why does everyone knock his scoring efficiency?

Collins efficiency has been climbing since he started sinking 3's ... perhaps Harper didn't notice? Shots blocked is his current struggle.

His FG% is very meh and 2 point attempts constitute the bulk of his shots. But mostly, he could easily up his % by 10 points and double his assist numbers by playing smarter.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[JonFromVA]

Why does everyone knock his scoring efficiency?

Collins efficiency has been climbing since he started sinking 3's ... perhaps Harper didn't notice? Shots blocked is his current struggle.

His FG% is very meh and 2 point attempts constitute the bulk of his shots. But mostly, he could easily up his % by 10 points and double his assist numbers by playing smarter

Collin has a lot to improve on... but why do we only hear positive things about SGA for instance and his efficiency isn't much different?

It may be because Collin's main contribution at this point is his scoring, but people don't seem to be considering his age / experience. He will become more well rounded AND refine his scoring but how much is tbd.

[Stillwater]

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/02/collin-sexton-named-to-rising-stars-roster-as-injury-replacement-for-miamis-tyler-herro.html
last player to leave the court as usual... about time some respect was shown for this kids work. The funny thing is how he seemed disappointed he wasn't going home for a break and instead had an obligation suddenly to the all-star weekend dog and pony show ...gotta love the kid keeping it real

[JonFromVA]

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/02/collin-sexton-named-to-rising-stars-roster-as-injury-replacement-for-miamis-tyler-herro.html
last player to leave the court as usual... about time some respect was shown for this kids work. The funny thing is how he seemed disappointed he wasn't going home for a break and instead had an obligation suddenly to the all-star weekend dog and pony show ...gotta love the kid keeping it real

Bit of an emotional roller coaster to deal with even if he won't admit it.

[Stillwater]

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/02/collin-sexton-named-to-rising-stars-roster-as-injury-replacement-for-miamis-tyler-herro.html
last player to leave the court as usual... about time some respect was shown for this kids work. The funny thing is how he seemed disappointed he wasn't going home for a break and instead had an obligation suddenly to the all-star weekend dog and pony show ...gotta love the kid keeping it real

Bit of an emotional roller coaster to deal with even if he won't admit it.

I am sure he is half hearted about it since he was not included until someone else couldn't participate.
But the reality is he probably had plans to visit family which imo would overpower any desire to be thrown in as a reserve body with some players who don't even deserve to be there but since MJ and Chicago go hand and hand 3 of the players are members of his org.
No way Bridges deserved the nod over Collin and despite Devonte deserving it and PJ looking worthy I would have thought Jaxson Hayes was more deserving than the Bulls Wendal Carter and I think Trae and Luka since they are in the all star game should have been replaced by others like Sexton and Sekou from the jump

[gflem]

Yeah, he should have declined. I know, that would have made him look bad but who cares? He could have used several reasons other than the "screw you" that he has a right to use, but he seems to be a class kid which is one of the things I like about him. I hope he gets more than a few token minutes.

[Stillwater]

2nd year in a row he has come out firing on all cylinders in March.The vision is definitely improved moving back into a role requiring more use of it where it's evedent. Playing off ball has forced him to up his game and the Cavs are the beneficiary of the results. Even if just by drafting Garland it has challenged Sexton to become better it's a win.
Few have stood by this kid more than me, I see the same work ethic and hunger in his eyes as when I look at myself. I've been counted out my entire life and it requires a passionate mindset to come out a winner