The Ben Simmons Megathread - Part IV

[Ferry Avenue]

So he had a good game against a bad team (like he mostly has against bad teams) and we're back to 'Joel has to adapt to Ben' again?

The whole team has to adapt to Ben ...

Thing is, until he has shown he can dominate against the Clippers/Lakers/Bucks/... in this world ... I would still ask myself if Ben is the guy to build a contender around.

I 100% agree that Ben needs to prove he can play at a high level vs good teams in the playoffs. But can you say anyone on this team has proven they can do that?

I have no clue what the solution for this team is, but I’m certainly willing to keep an open mind. Personally I want to see a new coach with a new 1/2 court scheme come in before I deem Ben and Jo 100% aren’t capable of playing together. But if it comes down to trading 1 of them Im not convinced either way at this point. We’ve seen the team without Jo, but I’m curious as to how this team would look like if Ben were to miss an extended period of time.

If the team enters the playoffs with Simmons playing offensively like he has been lately and Embiid playing on both ends like he did against Milwaukee on Christmas, coupled with the maximum defensive effort every player is capable of, it'll be tough to beat them.

[SparksFly87]

Ben Needs to play with another point guard in half court.

[XtremeDunkz]

Theres no reason why Simmons cant be active and cut on offense when Embiid is in the game. But all we have seen from Ben when Embiid plays is him sitting behind the backboard getting in Joels way.

[76ciology]

No he doesn't, his touch is good but not elite. Embiid will never be an elite 3pt shooter. Maybe he can improve it a bit idk.
Y'all guys just want to adhere to the modern NBA and so force Embiid to abandon what he does the best.

Yes. Because im concern with what this TEAM DO BEST than what EMBIID DO BEST. If it means Embiid has to be Brook lopez on offense for us to win a championship; then so be it.

However, you want what Simmons does best, but we are not applying the same with Embiid, why? you are basically saying Simmons has to do the things he is better at and just forget or minimize his time spent at shooting, while at the same time, Embiid has to be forced to space the floor and minimize his time spent on what he does best.

Because the team is more winnable or tougher to stop if we max out Ben than if we max out Biid. Mainly, because Biid is the more talented player so he can adjust. While Ben is a heavily flawed player.

Ben is also less TO prone and is a better playmaker. That is why the team is making less TOs with this style of offense we are running for the last few games.

Biid should face-up more, roll to the basket more and post up less. While I dont mind Biid posting up on every possession whenever Ben is on the court. So im not saying he should take it all away.

Anyway, if you notice all the things i mentioned about running this team happened. From putting Biid on siakam in the playoffs (which they said impossible), Ben posting guards more (which they said impossible), Ben operating PnR near the basket with Embiid, Ben rolling to the basket more and etc. So let’s just agree to disagree and you’ll see what I mean, because I know Brett is either reading my posts here or we are on the same wavelength with me.

[76ciology]

Theres no reason why Simmons cant be active and cut on offense when Embiid is in the game. But all we have seen from Ben when Embiid plays is him sitting behind the backboard getting in Joels way.

In theory yes.
In real life, it’s difficult.
We have the last two seasons as sample size for that.

Nobody operates a 3 out offense. NBA offense is 4 out offense or else it leads to relatively ineffective offense due to poor spacing.

Another reason is we need to rely less on Embiid. This was our biggest mistake for the last two seasons. Embiid WILL shrink against certain type of post players and the refs allow all kinds of physicality to limit him.

[Bum Adebayo]

Most of what you are saying is evident, like putting Embiid on Siakam or Ben posting guards. Some here said Ben lacks strength, I don't know what they are watching but Ben has an elite body, literally no guard can defend him. I just don't want to force Embiid to become mostly a spot up shooter on offense just to appease roster construction. It is on FO to fix roster construction.

[76ciology]

Spoiler:

Yes. Because im concern with what this TEAM DO BEST than what EMBIID DO BEST. If it means Embiid has to be Brook lopez on offense for us to win a championship; then so be it.

However, you want what Simmons does best, but we are not applying the same with Embiid, why? you are basically saying Simmons has to do the things he is better at and just forget or minimize his time spent at shooting, while at the same time, Embiid has to be forced to space the floor and minimize his time spent on what he does best.

Because the team is more winnable or tougher to stop if we max out Ben than if we max out Biid. Mainly, because Biid is the more talented player so he can adjust. While Ben is a heavily flawed player.

Ben is also less TO prone and is a better playmaker. That is why the team is making less TOs with this style of offense we are running for the last few games.

Biid should face-up more, roll to the basket more and post up less. While I dont mind Biid posting up on every possession whenever Ben is on the court. So im not saying he should take it all away.

Anyway, if you notice all the things i mentioned about running this team happened. From putting Biid on siakam in the playoffs (which they said impossible), Ben posting guards more (which they said impossible), Ben operating PnR near the basket with Embiid, Ben rolling to the basket more and etc. So let’s just agree to disagree and you’ll see what I mean, because I know Brett is either reading my posts here or we are on the same wavelength with me.

And the change im proposing also doesnt necessarily mean its not maxing out embiid.

For instance when we faced the Thunders recently. Steven Adams was able to get 24pts and 15rebs. How many post-ups did he made?

If we can get Embiid easy baskets. If he can conserve his energy wrestling in the paint to defense. Then this energy may allow him to be better on defense and most importantly... helps his long term durability.

P.S. Biid playing more two man game also opens up Josh Richardson’s PnR game.

[pickprotection]

If we flame out in the first round i would be open to trading embiid (3 yrs on deal remaining) for beal (2 years on deal remaining) this summer.

I dont think simmons and embiid can be maximized together given embiids mindset. He doesnt chuck if hes open from 3 he doesnt roll to the rim he doesnt pass willingly out of double teams and he still has failed to adapt to good defensive centers like gasol horford etc. after 4 years in the league.

Embiid is probaly a top 8-14 player in the league but he has obvious health concerns (bad knees bad feet and a bad back) and still doesnt take his weight and conditioning seriously (even jokic gets gassed less than him and play 40 mpg on the regular).

82 games of Beal next to Ben and moving Horgord and Harris down to their natural positions is probably better off than 50 games from Embiid and the awkward fit for everyone else.

[Kobblehead]

Ben Simmons would have to be dominant in the playoffs to even think about trading Embiid.

And no way you do it in-conference.

[pickprotection]

Ben Simmons would have to be dominant in the playoffs to even think about trading Embiid.

And no way you do it in-conference.

Here is the thing Embiid has been shut down and outplayed by Gasol and Horford (both older 32+ year old centers who no one thinks are top 20 players). Its not like Embiid has proven anything outside the first round of the playoffs.

Jimmy was our best player in the 2nd round last year by far and hid both of their flaws in the playoffs namely simmons running the offense and embiid being completely inefficient at scoring against good defense.

If push comes to shove ill take the flawed iron man player who can guard 4 positions and play high iq basketball.

[Arsenal]

Ben Simmons would have to be dominant in the playoffs to even think about trading Embiid.

And no way you do it in-conference.

Here is the thing Embiid has been shut down and outplayed by Gasol and Horford (both older 32+ year old centers who no one thinks are top 20 players). Its not like Embiid has proven anything outside the first round of the playoffs.

Jimmy was our best player in the 2nd round last year by far and hid both of their flaws in the playoffs namely simmons running the offense and embiid being completely inefficient at scoring against good defense.

If push comes to shove ill take the flawed iron man player who can guard 4 positions and play high iq basketball.

Absolutely not. It's ridiculous to claim Jimmy or anyone was better than Embiid against the Raptors. All you have to do is look at our ridiculous ON/OFF for Embiid to see that.

[Kobblehead]

Simmons averaged 11.6 against the Raptors and was getting worked on the other end by Kawhi. So you want to trade a bonafide superstar like Embiid on behalf of a playoff futile Ben Simmons? Seems like an obvious misstep.

[Arsenal]

No idea why so many think we HAVE to trade either Embiid or Simmons.

Newsflash, they consistently dominate together when the court is not clogged with another non-spacing Center (*cough* Horford *cough*).

[Kobblehead]

No idea why so many think we HAVE to trade either Embiid or Simmons.

Newsflash, they consistently dominate together when the court is not clogged with another non-spacing Center (*cough* Horford *cough*).

We don't have to trade Simmons, but if he's predisposed to dialing back his aggression when playing with Embiid and puts up mere role player production, we might as well move him for a player of equal talent with more logical synergy with Embiid.

If Simmons can maintain his current scoring aggression (20 ppg in January) when Embiid gets back, they will be fine together despite not having perfectly complimentary games. It all depends on what Simmons pushes himself to be alongside Embiid: co-star or role player.

[pickprotection]

Obviously if the team suceeds this season they dont need to trade neither but i think we end up with the 5th or 6th seed and lose in the first round.

If that happense then one of harris horford simmons or embiid is gone due to the salary cap implication of paying the 2nd or 3rd most highest payroll in the league for a first round exit.

Harris is a negative aseet.

Horford is a very negative asset.

Embiid and Simmons are both positive assets who both play center on offense in practise.

Thats too much money on 2 positions to your 4 highest paid players.

If ownership said we will deal simmons or embiid id rather keep simmons. This front office also prefers simmons which is clear from their actions (not retaining jimmy, keeping tobias, getting the perfect center outisde of towns to pair with simmons in horford).

If we have a first round exit i think the writing is on the wall for an embiid trade in the off season.

[Arsenal]

Obviously if the team suceeds this season they dont need to trade neither but i think we end up with the 5th or 6th seed and lose in the first round.

If that happense then one of harris horford simmons or embiid is gone due to the salary cap implication of paying the 2nd or 3rd most highest payroll in the league for a first round exit.

Harris is a negative aseet.

Horford is a very negative asset.

Embiid and Simmons are both positive assets who both play center on offense in practise.

Thats too much money on 2 positions to your 4 highest paid players.

If ownership said we will deal simmons or embiid id rather keep simmons. This front office also prefers simmons which is clear from their actions (not retaining jimmy, keeping tobias, getting the perfect center outisde of towns to pair with simmons in horford).

If we have a first round exit i think the writing is on the wall for an embiid trade in the off season.

Disagree. There is no reason to panic and deal Embiid or Simmons. They are still only 23 sand 25 years old, so I have no idea why everyone is panicking as if we have to win this year or its the end of the world.

We can downgrade from Al Horford significantly talentwise, and still improve the team just by getting a better fit.

[Arsenal]

No idea why so many think we HAVE to trade either Embiid or Simmons.

Newsflash, they consistently dominate together when the court is not clogged with another non-spacing Center (*cough* Horford *cough*).

We don't have to trade Simmons, but if he's predisposed to dialing back his aggression when playing with Embiid and puts up mere role player production, we might as well move him for a player of equal talent with more logical synergy with Embiid.

If Simmons can maintain his current scoring aggression (20 ppg in January) when Embiid gets back, they will be fine together despite not having perfectly complimentary games. It all depends on what Simmons pushes himself to be alongside Embiid: co-star or role player.

Ben Simmons is only 23 years old. Why don't we give it some time before pulling panic moves?

[76ciology]

No need for trade. Just find a way for every talent on this team to work. We have the ingredients, just need to bake the cake.

[Kobblehead]

Ben Simmons is only 23 years old. Why don't we give it some time before pulling panic moves?

I don't think age is relevant. It's development trajectory that matters. Simmons is flatlinning on his development trajectory. His contract could be absolutely terrible in the coming years. If someone offers us an out while swapping an equally talented player with a more desirable skillset, we gotta jump at that opportunity, IMO.

[Arsenal]

No need for trade. Just find a way for every talent on this team to work. We have the ingredients, just need to bake the cake.

If no trades, then there's only one way to make it work. Send Horford to the bench and he virtually never plays with Embiid + Simmons aside from specific favorable matchups. He can still easily play 30 mpg while only paired with one or the other.

In the playoffs his minutes would prob be around 20 mpg, but would still be valuable if he keeps us from falling off the cliff in the few minutes Embiid is not playing.

Start Korkmaz to provide desperately needed spacing for Embiid + Simmons.