Lowe: 10 Things I Like and Don't Like (Gordon)

[basketballRob]

We have this offense becouse our athletes cant shoot or handle the ball outside Evan, Terrence and Nicola. I can feel the frustration of skilled players we have.

We score just as many points without them. Hopefully we're just showcasing them.

I know AG looks so much better in the run and gun offense we played against the Lakers.

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So you want to build offense without shooting, passing and ball handling becouse we won one close game against Lakers?

Gordon scored becouse no one was really guarding him most of the time and he even needed some unusual finishes.

Watch on YouTube

I hope you aren't insinuating that Fournier is a better ball handler than AG? Against a good defense they can just manhandle and take the ball away from Fournier. I mean he's a good regular season player against poor defenses.

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[basketballRob]

We have this offense becouse our athletes cant shoot or handle the ball outside Evan, Terrence and Nicola. I can feel the frustration of skilled players we have.

We score just as many points without them. Hopefully we're just showcasing them.

I know AG looks so much better in the run and gun offense we played against the Lakers.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

It was one game against one of the oldest teams in the league missing its best and most athletic defender. Drawing some big conclusions from it is ridiculous. AG scored just as much in the next game against the Clippers when we played at a slower pace and actually shot better but again this doesn't prove anything either.

Evan was back against the Clippers and put our offense in a funk. I don't recall any fast break points against them.

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[pepe1991]

Boosting pace on team that can't shoot or dribble is best way for front office to the themself fired. It creates false sense of "core" because somebody puts up 22 ppg and in reality you can't build around him ( wink wink- Julius Randle, Drammond, Wiggins, Tobias Harris ...) So you fool yourself into building around that guy to find out you turned into 2019-20 Bulls, who got fooled into Lavine- star hype. ( or Booker- Suns hype ).

Among 10 fastest paced teamas in NBA, 5 are not playoff teams.

4 of top 10 fastest paced teams are also top 10 worst offensive teams by off rating.

Playing fast is nothing but gimmick. It boosts stats of some players to make them look better than they are, but does nothing for your team in W- L column.
Playing fast makes sense only when your superstars are young and have specific skillsets (ballhandling, passing,shooting) that helps them explore big gaps in individual talent compared to competition. Case and point two fastest teams have 2 of NBA's best players in this moment- Harden and Giannis.
Other 3 fastest paced teams are some of the worst teams- Minny, Atlanta and Washington.

Because whole league is now trying to run like a fools we already see shift in pace among contenders to make other teams uncomfortable. Lakers ( 16), Nuggets (28th), Heat ( 26th), Jazz (20), Philly (21) already slowed down pace a lot.
How do we know playing slow hurts fast teams? We saw last year's playoffs and Giannis being stucked into half court and runned over by methodial basketball.

Also this is really important. Pace CAN'T be translated to playoff games. Bucks pace went from 105 to 100 in playoffs. 4 fastest paced playoff teams were also 4 teams that lost in first round.
Warriors (9th among 16) and Raptors ( 11 amonth 16) in pace during playoffs were NBA finals matchup.

As for Gordon, only fool will change team's sctruture to fit 6th year role player. It's like changing system to fit Serge Ibaka. And we know how well that went.

This makes great sense to me...so what do you suggest?

Nothing. Keep developing players in pace that currently exists.
If they feel that Fultz should rush to half court, let him do it. Oklahoma played pretty slow despite Westbrook being more than capable of being one man transition show. They allowed him to push a pace when it's possible ,but normally they had no issue play half court. Even with Durant they had pace of 98 ( today it would be 3rd slowest).

Also one thing i don't get is who else would benefit from fast pace other than maybe Gordon and Fultz.
And you soon find answer is -nobody.
Bamba is way too letargic, slowfooted and lacks awarness to expose him to up and down running.
Second player who would suffer is Isaac. With asthma history, bumed knee ( and ankle) , being 6'11 runner isn't fun.

btw whole " Magic are playing slow" needs to be taken by grain of salt. Same pace they have today would make them 9th fastest team in 2017-18.

You can also find strong corelation between 3s and pace. Teams that boost pace, tend to be same teams that want to shoot lot of 3s.
Houston , MInessota, Dallas, Bucks and Pelicans are shooting highest amount of 3s. 3 of 4 of them are fastest paced teams.

Few nights ago i watched Houston - MInessota and Houston brodcasting team cracked best joke of a year " they want to play like us just don't have shooters to do it " and that's what happends to you when gimmick becomes your offense. 15-26 team without single sharpshooter is taking 39 threes a game and result is them being 6th worst offense.
Sad part is that they actually do have superstar, yet they do everything in their power to make him miserable. Including coaching, supporting cast, playstyle, even position he plays. Now they don't even have point guard.

Few years back, just when Atkinson took over Nets, they were second team in a league in 3 point attemps. And won 20 games and helped Celtics win lottery.

There are trends in nba (passing, floor spacing, shooting ... ) but you have to adjust players OR system to them. You can't do both. You can't force upon yourself something that you have no players to execute. Magic do not have team equipped for fast pace.
Now people use one game sample size of Lakers win ( without freaking Davis! ) to make arguments for playing style. Yet when we engaged fast pace Bucks into a shootaround, we let them score 37 POINTS IN FIRST QUATER WITHOUT GIANNIS! And what Fultz did? Had worst game of a season.
What happend in game after Lakers win? Enganged into fast pace with Clippers, lost by 27. But cherry-picking for arguments works i guess.

[VFX]

Boosting pace on team that can't shoot or dribble is best way for front office to the themself fired. It creates false sense of "core" because somebody puts up 22 ppg and in reality you can't build around him ( wink wink- Julius Randle, Drammond, Wiggins, Tobias Harris ...) So you fool yourself into building around that guy to find out you turned into 2019-20 Bulls, who got fooled into Lavine- star hype. ( or Booker- Suns hype ).

Among 10 fastest paced teamas in NBA, 5 are not playoff teams.

4 of top 10 fastest paced teams are also top 10 worst offensive teams by off rating.

Playing fast is nothing but gimmick. It boosts stats of some players to make them look better than they are, but does nothing for your team in W- L column.
Playing fast makes sense only when your superstars are young and have specific skillsets (ballhandling, passing,shooting) that helps them explore big gaps in individual talent compared to competition. Case and point two fastest teams have 2 of NBA's best players in this moment- Harden and Giannis.
Other 3 fastest paced teams are some of the worst teams- Minny, Atlanta and Washington.

Because whole league is now trying to run like a fools we already see shift in pace among contenders to make other teams uncomfortable. Lakers ( 16), Nuggets (28th), Heat ( 26th), Jazz (20), Philly (21) already slowed down pace a lot.
How do we know playing slow hurts fast teams? We saw last year's playoffs and Giannis being stucked into half court and runned over by methodial basketball.

Also this is really important. Pace CAN'T be translated to playoff games. Bucks pace went from 105 to 100 in playoffs. 4 fastest paced playoff teams were also 4 teams that lost in first round.
Warriors (9th among 16) and Raptors ( 11 amonth 16) in pace during playoffs were NBA finals matchup.

As for Gordon, only fool will change team's sctruture to fit 6th year role player. It's like changing system to fit Serge Ibaka. And we know how well that went.

This makes great sense to me...so what do you suggest?

Nothing. Keep developing players in pace that currently exists.
If they feel that Fultz should rush to half court, let him do it. Oklahoma played pretty slow despite Westbrook being more than capable of being one man transition show. They allowed him to push a pace when it's possible ,but normally they had no issue play half court. Even with Durant they had pace of 98 ( today it would be 3rd slowest).

Also one thing i don't get is who else would benefit from fast pace other than maybe Gordon and Fultz.
And you soon find answer is -nobody.
Bamba is way too letargic, slowfooted and lacks awarness to expose him to up and down running.
Second player who would suffer is Isaac. With asthma history, bumed knee ( and ankle) , being 6'11 runner isn't fun.

btw whole " Magic are playing slow" needs to be taken by grain of salt. Same pace they have today would make them 9th fastest team in 2017-18.

You can also find strong corelation between 3s and pace. Teams that boost pace, tend to be same teams that want to shoot lot of 3s.
Houston , MInessota, Dallas, Bucks and Pelicans are shooting highest amount of 3s. 3 of 4 of them are fastest paced teams.

Few nights ago i watched Houston - MInessota and Houston brodcasting team cracked best joke of a year " they want to play like us just don't have shooters to do it " and that's what happends to you when gimmick becomes your offense. 15-26 team without single sharpshooter is taking 39 threes a game and result is them being 6th worst offense.
Sad part is that they actually do have superstar, yet they do everything in their power to make him miserable. Including coaching, supporting cast, playstyle, even position he plays. Now they don't even have point guard.

Few years back, just when Atkinson took over Nets, they were second team in a league in 3 point attemps. And won 20 games and helped Celtics win lottery.

There are trends in nba (passing, floor spacing, shooting ... ) but you have to adjust players OR system to them. You can't do both. You can't force upon yourself something that you have no players to execute. Magic do not have team equipped for fast pace.
Now people use one game sample size of Lakers win ( without freaking Davis! ) to make arguments for playing style. Yet when we engaged fast pace Bucks into a shootaround, we let them score 37 POINTS IN FIRST QUATER WITHOUT GIANNIS! And what Fultz did? Had worst game of a season.
What happend in game after Lakers win? Enganged into fast pace with Clippers, lost by 27. But cherry-picking for arguments works i guess.

Pace matters dependent upon the personnel.

Playing fast serves no purpose if your EFG% and TS% are trash. On the other hand, it helps immensely if it’s the other way around.


Bottom 6 teams in pace

25. Cleveland
26. Miami
27. Orlando
28. Sacramento
29. Denver
30. Charlotte

Miami also leads the league in TS%
Ranks 3rd in EFG%
And 8th in ORTG among all teams

Denver runs everything through Jokic, they just have better shooters and a more effective balanced offense (7th ortg).

Bottom 6 teams in EFG%

25. Atlanta
26. Chicago
27. Minnesota
28. New York
29. Orlando
30. Golden State

Bottom 6 teams in TS%

25.Atlanta
26.Minnesota
27.Chicago
28.Golden State
29.Orlando
30.New York

Of course the top 6 teams with the highest TS% and EFG% are contenders.

The point is that AG plays in a system that doesn’t utilize his biggest strength : athleticism. He’s not running the open floor surrounded by effective shooters. He plays in one of the slowest least effective offenses in the entire league. He’s not the kind of player that takes over games either, so he’s reliant on others to create this system. Not ideal. He simply doesn’t fit knowing all of this.

[pepe1991]

This makes great sense to me...so what do you suggest?

Nothing. Keep developing players in pace that currently exists.
If they feel that Fultz should rush to half court, let him do it. Oklahoma played pretty slow despite Westbrook being more than capable of being one man transition show. They allowed him to push a pace when it's possible ,but normally they had no issue play half court. Even with Durant they had pace of 98 ( today it would be 3rd slowest).

Also one thing i don't get is who else would benefit from fast pace other than maybe Gordon and Fultz.
And you soon find answer is -nobody.
Bamba is way too letargic, slowfooted and lacks awarness to expose him to up and down running.
Second player who would suffer is Isaac. With asthma history, bumed knee ( and ankle) , being 6'11 runner isn't fun.

btw whole " Magic are playing slow" needs to be taken by grain of salt. Same pace they have today would make them 9th fastest team in 2017-18.

You can also find strong corelation between 3s and pace. Teams that boost pace, tend to be same teams that want to shoot lot of 3s.
Houston , MInessota, Dallas, Bucks and Pelicans are shooting highest amount of 3s. 3 of 4 of them are fastest paced teams.

Few nights ago i watched Houston - MInessota and Houston brodcasting team cracked best joke of a year " they want to play like us just don't have shooters to do it " and that's what happends to you when gimmick becomes your offense. 15-26 team without single sharpshooter is taking 39 threes a game and result is them being 6th worst offense.
Sad part is that they actually do have superstar, yet they do everything in their power to make him miserable. Including coaching, supporting cast, playstyle, even position he plays. Now they don't even have point guard.

Few years back, just when Atkinson took over Nets, they were second team in a league in 3 point attemps. And won 20 games and helped Celtics win lottery.

There are trends in nba (passing, floor spacing, shooting ... ) but you have to adjust players OR system to them. You can't do both. You can't force upon yourself something that you have no players to execute. Magic do not have team equipped for fast pace.
Now people use one game sample size of Lakers win ( without freaking Davis! ) to make arguments for playing style. Yet when we engaged fast pace Bucks into a shootaround, we let them score 37 POINTS IN FIRST QUATER WITHOUT GIANNIS! And what Fultz did? Had worst game of a season.
What happend in game after Lakers win? Enganged into fast pace with Clippers, lost by 27. But cherry-picking for arguments works i guess.

Pace matters dependent upon the personnel.

Playing fast serves no purpose if your EFG% and TS% are trash. On the other hand, it helps immensely if it’s the other way around.


Bottom 6 teams in pace

25. Cleveland
26. Miami
27. Orlando
28. Sacramento
29. Denver
30. Charlotte

Miami also leads the league in TS%
Ranks 3rd in EFG%
And 8th in ORTG among all teams

Denver runs everything through Jokic, they just have better shooters and a more effective balanced offense (7th ortg).

Bottom 6 teams in EFG%

25. Atlanta
26. Chicago
27. Minnesota
28. New York
29. Orlando
30. Golden State

Bottom 6 teams in TS%

25.Atlanta
26.Minnesota
27.Chicago
28.Golden State
29.Orlando
30.New York

Of course the top 6 teams with the highest TS% and EFG% are contenders.

The point is that AG plays in a system that doesn’t utilize his biggest strength : athleticism. He’s not running the open floor surrounded by effective shooters. He plays in one of the slowest least effective offenses in the entire league. He’s not the kind of player that takes over games either, so he’s reliant on others to create this system. Not ideal. He simply doesn’t fit knowing all of this.

Ofc playing fast without efficiency is suicide.
Gordon's athletics are overhyped in sense that he is only great leaper.
He has painfully slow first step, is average rebounder, does not "fly" for blocks etc.
At end of a day Gordon simply isn't good enough to find fits for him.

We alraedy know endgame of Gordon's career by just looking at his better version - Blake Griffin. Even if you somehow can squeeze best out of Gordon, Blake is his highest ceiling .And Blake, for all things he did in career ( allstar in rookie year ,ROY, 6 time allstar, all nba second team 3 times....) proved one thing. He is not player you should build system or team around. He is complimentary star. And not even second, but third complimentary star on good team and painfully hard player to fit system around.

Also you have to be prepared for really ugly fall after athletics start to fade ,and given how young they arived in nba, their basketball prime is way ahead of "normal" prime, so they will peak around 26-28 and nosedive in early 30s. Blake already is fading, guy is turning 30 in 2 months. ( there are plenty of nba players who peaked early, Deng, Ibaka, Howard, Brand, T mac...)

[zaymon]

This makes great sense to me...so what do you suggest?

Nothing. Keep developing players in pace that currently exists.
If they feel that Fultz should rush to half court, let him do it. Oklahoma played pretty slow despite Westbrook being more than capable of being one man transition show. They allowed him to push a pace when it's possible ,but normally they had no issue play half court. Even with Durant they had pace of 98 ( today it would be 3rd slowest).

Also one thing i don't get is who else would benefit from fast pace other than maybe Gordon and Fultz.
And you soon find answer is -nobody.
Bamba is way too letargic, slowfooted and lacks awarness to expose him to up and down running.
Second player who would suffer is Isaac. With asthma history, bumed knee ( and ankle) , being 6'11 runner isn't fun.

btw whole " Magic are playing slow" needs to be taken by grain of salt. Same pace they have today would make them 9th fastest team in 2017-18.

You can also find strong corelation between 3s and pace. Teams that boost pace, tend to be same teams that want to shoot lot of 3s.
Houston , MInessota, Dallas, Bucks and Pelicans are shooting highest amount of 3s. 3 of 4 of them are fastest paced teams.

Few nights ago i watched Houston - MInessota and Houston brodcasting team cracked best joke of a year " they want to play like us just don't have shooters to do it " and that's what happends to you when gimmick becomes your offense. 15-26 team without single sharpshooter is taking 39 threes a game and result is them being 6th worst offense.
Sad part is that they actually do have superstar, yet they do everything in their power to make him miserable. Including coaching, supporting cast, playstyle, even position he plays. Now they don't even have point guard.

Few years back, just when Atkinson took over Nets, they were second team in a league in 3 point attemps. And won 20 games and helped Celtics win lottery.

There are trends in nba (passing, floor spacing, shooting ... ) but you have to adjust players OR system to them. You can't do both. You can't force upon yourself something that you have no players to execute. Magic do not have team equipped for fast pace.
Now people use one game sample size of Lakers win ( without freaking Davis! ) to make arguments for playing style. Yet when we engaged fast pace Bucks into a shootaround, we let them score 37 POINTS IN FIRST QUATER WITHOUT GIANNIS! And what Fultz did? Had worst game of a season.
What happend in game after Lakers win? Enganged into fast pace with Clippers, lost by 27. But cherry-picking for arguments works i guess.

Pace matters dependent upon the personnel.

Playing fast serves no purpose if your EFG% and TS% are trash. On the other hand, it helps immensely if it’s the other way around.


Bottom 6 teams in pace

25. Cleveland
26. Miami
27. Orlando
28. Sacramento
29. Denver
30. Charlotte

Miami also leads the league in TS%
Ranks 3rd in EFG%
And 8th in ORTG among all teams

Denver runs everything through Jokic, they just have better shooters and a more effective balanced offense (7th ortg).

Bottom 6 teams in EFG%

25. Atlanta
26. Chicago
27. Minnesota
28. New York
29. Orlando
30. Golden State

Bottom 6 teams in TS%

25.Atlanta
26.Minnesota
27.Chicago
28.Golden State
29.Orlando
30.New York

Of course the top 6 teams with the highest TS% and EFG% are contenders.

The point is that AG plays in a system that doesn’t utilize his biggest strength : athleticism. He’s not running the open floor surrounded by effective shooters. He plays in one of the slowest least effective offenses in the entire league. He’s not the kind of player that takes over games either, so he’s reliant on others to create this system. Not ideal. He simply doesn’t fit knowing all of this.

Dont you think us having that low TS% and EFG% is becouse of Gordon ? He creates environment in which every player is not used properly. He is not a player you build around, so he needs to make the game easier for everyone, but:
Fournier TS% 0.595 EFG% 0.556
Isaac TS% 0.542 EFG% 0.509
Vucevic TS% 0.533 EFG% 0.503
Fultz TS% 0.507 EFG% 0.477
Gordon TS% 0.505 EFG% 0.473

No system can utilize his strength becouse he himself cant utilize it beocuse of his bad shooting and ball handling.

[pepe1991]

Good point zaymon.
I always repeat same thing: Nobody forces Gordon to bad shots, it's something he does because he wants to.

40% of all his shots are mid range jumpers where he shoots:
35% between 3 and 10 feet
34,7% between 10 and 16 feet
21% on long 2s


Also his 3 ball i questionable, or should i say proven bad? Once in 6 years he was at league's average. This year he is not even 30% three point shooter.

No sytem or pace can fix that.
This is same crap people used to say about Payton " he can't shine because of Evan, Ibaka and Vučević" . Goes to 3 different teams and never averaged more points or assist than he did wih Magic. While playing with Evan and Vučević.
Now he is 8,5 ppg starter on 44,5% TS.

Same was said about Hezonja as well.
There are situations where team holds player back or down or does not know how to ulitize him in best fashion. That's not case with Gordon. His issue is player he wants to versus talent that he does not have to fulfil it. That condition should probably be called Carmelo Anthony syndrome. ( or Lance Stephenson, DIon Waiters, or Kyrie Irving syndrome )

[VFX]

Nothing. Keep developing players in pace that currently exists.
If they feel that Fultz should rush to half court, let him do it. Oklahoma played pretty slow despite Westbrook being more than capable of being one man transition show. They allowed him to push a pace when it's possible ,but normally they had no issue play half court. Even with Durant they had pace of 98 ( today it would be 3rd slowest).

Also one thing i don't get is who else would benefit from fast pace other than maybe Gordon and Fultz.
And you soon find answer is -nobody.
Bamba is way too letargic, slowfooted and lacks awarness to expose him to up and down running.
Second player who would suffer is Isaac. With asthma history, bumed knee ( and ankle) , being 6'11 runner isn't fun.

btw whole " Magic are playing slow" needs to be taken by grain of salt. Same pace they have today would make them 9th fastest team in 2017-18.

You can also find strong corelation between 3s and pace. Teams that boost pace, tend to be same teams that want to shoot lot of 3s.
Houston , MInessota, Dallas, Bucks and Pelicans are shooting highest amount of 3s. 3 of 4 of them are fastest paced teams.

Few nights ago i watched Houston - MInessota and Houston brodcasting team cracked best joke of a year " they want to play like us just don't have shooters to do it " and that's what happends to you when gimmick becomes your offense. 15-26 team without single sharpshooter is taking 39 threes a game and result is them being 6th worst offense.
Sad part is that they actually do have superstar, yet they do everything in their power to make him miserable. Including coaching, supporting cast, playstyle, even position he plays. Now they don't even have point guard.

Few years back, just when Atkinson took over Nets, they were second team in a league in 3 point attemps. And won 20 games and helped Celtics win lottery.

There are trends in nba (passing, floor spacing, shooting ... ) but you have to adjust players OR system to them. You can't do both. You can't force upon yourself something that you have no players to execute. Magic do not have team equipped for fast pace.
Now people use one game sample size of Lakers win ( without freaking Davis! ) to make arguments for playing style. Yet when we engaged fast pace Bucks into a shootaround, we let them score 37 POINTS IN FIRST QUATER WITHOUT GIANNIS! And what Fultz did? Had worst game of a season.
What happend in game after Lakers win? Enganged into fast pace with Clippers, lost by 27. But cherry-picking for arguments works i guess.

Pace matters dependent upon the personnel.

Playing fast serves no purpose if your EFG% and TS% are trash. On the other hand, it helps immensely if it’s the other way around.


Bottom 6 teams in pace

25. Cleveland
26. Miami
27. Orlando
28. Sacramento
29. Denver
30. Charlotte

Miami also leads the league in TS%
Ranks 3rd in EFG%
And 8th in ORTG among all teams

Denver runs everything through Jokic, they just have better shooters and a more effective balanced offense (7th ortg).

Bottom 6 teams in EFG%

25. Atlanta
26. Chicago
27. Minnesota
28. New York
29. Orlando
30. Golden State

Bottom 6 teams in TS%

25.Atlanta
26.Minnesota
27.Chicago
28.Golden State
29.Orlando
30.New York

Of course the top 6 teams with the highest TS% and EFG% are contenders.

The point is that AG plays in a system that doesn’t utilize his biggest strength : athleticism. He’s not running the open floor surrounded by effective shooters. He plays in one of the slowest least effective offenses in the entire league. He’s not the kind of player that takes over games either, so he’s reliant on others to create this system. Not ideal. He simply doesn’t fit knowing all of this.

Dont you think us having that low TS% and EFG% is becouse of Gordon ? He creates environment in which every player is not used properly. He is not a player you build around, so he needs to make the game easier for everyone, but:
Fournier TS% 0.595 EFG% 0.556
Isaac TS% 0.542 EFG% 0.509
Vucevic TS% 0.533 EFG% 0.503
Fultz TS% 0.507 EFG% 0.477
Gordon TS% 0.505 EFG% 0.473

No system can utilize his strength becouse he himself cant utilize it beocuse of his bad shooting and ball handling.

Absolutely.

He’s a large part of the ineffective system. Take Draymond Green for example. He’s had career low shooting numbers (rookie year aside) because his team is completely different this year and in the bottom of the rankings. Orlando is simply a roster of players that don’t fit together, or play to their strengths on offense. The ratings show that pretty clearly.

I’ve been saying for literally years that a team with AG and Vuc together can’t work, and to a lesser extent Isaac and AG. The team operates around Vuc, hence why we are the 4th slowest team in the nba in pace. I can’t say it’s effective. It obviously isn’t as the ratings show. Playing faster would likely not even be effective with this roster, but I’m just pointing out how Clifford wants to operate. That kind of system will never benefit a player like AG given his skill set. Furthermore, he does nothing to help the system we are forced to run.

[OrlandO]

We were actually middle of the pack in pace in years 1-6 of the rebuild. It was only when we significantly slowed down the pace these past couple seasons that we actually started winning some games.

Having athletes doesn't mean you should play fast. You still need to be able to score, shoot, dribble, pass, and play smart when you play fast. Probably more important to be able to do those things because if you screw up it makes it easier for the opponent to take advantage. What's the point of getting more possessions if you're bricking and turning it over at a higher rate and playing bad defense as a result. How many times do we hear young players talk about the game slowing down... how does the game slow down if they're playing faster than their skills can handle. That doesn't mean we can't ever increase our pace, especially in certain situations or against certain teams, but in general skipping steps to play faster is not how you develop players or a team.

[VFX]

We were actually middle of the pack in pace in years 1-6 of the rebuild. It was only when we significantly slowed down the pace these past couple seasons that we actually started winning some games.

Having athletes doesn't mean you should play fast. You still need to be able to score, shoot, dribble, pass, and play smart when you play fast. Probably more important to be able to do those things because if you screw up it makes it easier for the opponent to take advantage. What's the point of getting more possessions if you're bricking and turning it over at a higher rate and playing bad defense as a result. How many times do we hear young players talk about the game slowing down... how does the game slow down if they're playing faster than their skills can handle. That doesn't mean we can't ever increase our pace, especially in certain situations or against certain teams, but in general skipping steps to play faster is not how you develop players or a team.

Yeah, but you also aren’t going to tell the Golden State Warriors to slow down their pace after drafting Klay and Curry because “that’s not how you develop players”.

It worked for them because they had the talent and correct system for that to be effective.

Orlando doesn’t have players capable for that to be effective. Which is why trading AG makes sense playing at a bottom 5 pace resulting in bottom 5 TS% / EFG%.

[zaymon]

Pace matters dependent upon the personnel.

Playing fast serves no purpose if your EFG% and TS% are trash. On the other hand, it helps immensely if it’s the other way around.


Bottom 6 teams in pace

25. Cleveland
26. Miami
27. Orlando
28. Sacramento
29. Denver
30. Charlotte

Miami also leads the league in TS%
Ranks 3rd in EFG%
And 8th in ORTG among all teams

Denver runs everything through Jokic, they just have better shooters and a more effective balanced offense (7th ortg).

Bottom 6 teams in EFG%

25. Atlanta
26. Chicago
27. Minnesota
28. New York
29. Orlando
30. Golden State

Bottom 6 teams in TS%

25.Atlanta
26.Minnesota
27.Chicago
28.Golden State
29.Orlando
30.New York

Of course the top 6 teams with the highest TS% and EFG% are contenders.

The point is that AG plays in a system that doesn’t utilize his biggest strength : athleticism. He’s not running the open floor surrounded by effective shooters. He plays in one of the slowest least effective offenses in the entire league. He’s not the kind of player that takes over games either, so he’s reliant on others to create this system. Not ideal. He simply doesn’t fit knowing all of this.

Dont you think us having that low TS% and EFG% is becouse of Gordon ? He creates environment in which every player is not used properly. He is not a player you build around, so he needs to make the game easier for everyone, but:
Fournier TS% 0.595 EFG% 0.556
Isaac TS% 0.542 EFG% 0.509
Vucevic TS% 0.533 EFG% 0.503
Fultz TS% 0.507 EFG% 0.477
Gordon TS% 0.505 EFG% 0.473

No system can utilize his strength becouse he himself cant utilize it beocuse of his bad shooting and ball handling.

Absolutely.

He’s a large part of the ineffective system. Take Draymond Green for example. He’s had career low shooting numbers (rookie year aside) because his team is completely different this year and in the bottom of the rankings. Orlando is simply a roster of players that don’t fit together, or play to their strengths on offense. The ratings show that pretty clearly.

I’ve been saying for literally years that a team with AG and Vuc together can’t work, and to a lesser extent Isaac and AG. The team operates around Vuc, hence why we are the 4th slowest team in the nba in pace. I can’t say it’s effective. It obviously isn’t as the ratings show. Playing faster would likely not even be effective with this roster, but I’m just pointing out how Clifford wants to operate. That kind of system will never benefit a player like AG given his skill set. Furthermore, he does nothing to help the system we are forced to run.

Well i agree with you for the most part but i dont think Clifford wants to operate like that, he must do it with the personel we have. I REALLY like Clifford, he is not a genius who inventes a wheel, but he is not trying to reinvent it either. I think if Clifford would forbid AG to shoot this fadeawys he would break his spirit, becouse he wanted it so bad.

Regarding Gordon - Green comparison i see it on some level but Green is really smart, he is far superior passer, he doesnt make a lot of mistakes and he has competetive fire. I dont see any of this traits in Aaron.

[tiderulz]

The most interesting part of that article is...

"There are teams who would give a lot for Gordon."

Magic Johnny posted some of this yesterday. Lowe knows people on the NBA, but he is wrong as often as he is right. he makes guesses just like the rest of us.

[VFX]

Dont you think us having that low TS% and EFG% is becouse of Gordon ? He creates environment in which every player is not used properly. He is not a player you build around, so he needs to make the game easier for everyone, but:
Fournier TS% 0.595 EFG% 0.556
Isaac TS% 0.542 EFG% 0.509
Vucevic TS% 0.533 EFG% 0.503
Fultz TS% 0.507 EFG% 0.477
Gordon TS% 0.505 EFG% 0.473

No system can utilize his strength becouse he himself cant utilize it beocuse of his bad shooting and ball handling.

Absolutely.

He’s a large part of the ineffective system. Take Draymond Green for example. He’s had career low shooting numbers (rookie year aside) because his team is completely different this year and in the bottom of the rankings. Orlando is simply a roster of players that don’t fit together, or play to their strengths on offense. The ratings show that pretty clearly.

I’ve been saying for literally years that a team with AG and Vuc together can’t work, and to a lesser extent Isaac and AG. The team operates around Vuc, hence why we are the 4th slowest team in the nba in pace. I can’t say it’s effective. It obviously isn’t as the ratings show. Playing faster would likely not even be effective with this roster, but I’m just pointing out how Clifford wants to operate. That kind of system will never benefit a player like AG given his skill set. Furthermore, he does nothing to help the system we are forced to run.

Well i agree with you for the most part but i dont think Clifford wants to operate like that, he must do it with the personel we have. I REALLY like Clifford, he is not a genius who inventes a wheel, but he is not trying to reinvent it either. I think if Clifford would forbid AG to shoot this fadeawys he would break his spirit, becouse he wanted it so bad.

Regarding Gordon - Green comparison i see it on some level but Green is really smart, he is far superior passer, he doesnt make a lot of mistakes and he has competetive fire. I dont see any of this traits in Aaron.

Well. The Gordon/Green comp is more about how effective certain players are in certain systems. Mostly based on the available skill sets and talent on the rest of the roster. It’s obvious AG is a complimentary option and not a primary. That’s why it doesn’t surprise me when Greens numbers go down when he isn’t surrounded by HOF level shooters. You would think they would go up if he was a primary option without them right?

The FO has committed to Vuc for 3 more years unless he is moved. Therefore I doubt that is going to change the way the offense is being run considering he’s our highest usage player. Why? Because the Magic have limited options on offense despite the ratings telling us this system is flawed. That’s either because the roster lacks synergy with players like AG, or because the system is flawed itself. Either way, the results are what they are.

Why someone like Lowe is surprised by these results is funny. He obviously watches the Magic, knows how the offense is being run, and is well aware of the talent level on the roster.

[basketballRob]

We don't have the personnel to have a fast pace with slow Fournier and Vuc likes to hold the rebound before he hands it off.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[Bensational]

We were actually middle of the pack in pace in years 1-6 of the rebuild. It was only when we significantly slowed down the pace these past couple seasons that we actually started winning some games.

Having athletes doesn't mean you should play fast. You still need to be able to score, shoot, dribble, pass, and play smart when you play fast. Probably more important to be able to do those things because if you screw up it makes it easier for the opponent to take advantage. What's the point of getting more possessions if you're bricking and turning it over at a higher rate and playing bad defense as a result. How many times do we hear young players talk about the game slowing down... how does the game slow down if they're playing faster than their skills can handle. That doesn't mean we can't ever increase our pace, especially in certain situations or against certain teams, but in general skipping steps to play faster is not how you develop players or a team.

Yeah, but you also aren’t going to tell the Golden State Warriors to slow down their pace after drafting Klay and Curry because “that’s not how you develop players”.

It worked for them because they had the talent and correct system for that to be effective.

Orlando doesn’t have players capable for that to be effective. Which is why trading AG makes sense playing at a bottom 5 pace resulting in bottom 5 TS% / EFG%.

I don't see Gordon as being a negative impact on others, other than when he wastes a play on a bad ISO. He looks like a great partner for Fultz for more transition plays, and it seems destined that Fultz will take over the team eventually.

I also think shooting concerns are 1-2 seasons premature at this point. Fultz and Isaac are still 2 seasons away from starting to give us a taste of their prime level abilities. Maybe I'm naive, but I have full confidence that both Fultz and Isaac will be shooting good numbers from deep by then. Seeing how smooth Fultz's midrange shot is just tells me it's only a matter of repetition and time until Fultz regains that confidence from 3, too. Isaac is consistently around the 33% area for 3's, which isn't a 'bad' number. It's the equivalent of a 45% fg attempt, which is a reasonable midrange number. But again, I just feel confident that Isaac will improve over the next 2 seasons. Meanwhile we've got Bamba who's 30% from 3 doesn't look great, it's pretty clear to see he has strong potential as a shooter.

So if you consider a future where Fultz, Isaac and Bamba all become reliable 3pt shooters in the 34-38% range, a lineup of Fultz/(X)/Gordon/Isaac/Bamba doesn't look so bad. But then that (X) needs to become someone like a Beal/D'Lo/LaVine/CJ, before the team will start looking exciting again.

Can we turn Fournier and Vuc into a package that will land us a player like that, though? That is the real question.

[VFX]

We were actually middle of the pack in pace in years 1-6 of the rebuild. It was only when we significantly slowed down the pace these past couple seasons that we actually started winning some games.

Having athletes doesn't mean you should play fast. You still need to be able to score, shoot, dribble, pass, and play smart when you play fast. Probably more important to be able to do those things because if you screw up it makes it easier for the opponent to take advantage. What's the point of getting more possessions if you're bricking and turning it over at a higher rate and playing bad defense as a result. How many times do we hear young players talk about the game slowing down... how does the game slow down if they're playing faster than their skills can handle. That doesn't mean we can't ever increase our pace, especially in certain situations or against certain teams, but in general skipping steps to play faster is not how you develop players or a team.

Yeah, but you also aren’t going to tell the Golden State Warriors to slow down their pace after drafting Klay and Curry because “that’s not how you develop players”.

It worked for them because they had the talent and correct system for that to be effective.

Orlando doesn’t have players capable for that to be effective. Which is why trading AG makes sense playing at a bottom 5 pace resulting in bottom 5 TS% / EFG%.

I don't see Gordon as being a negative impact on others, other than when he wastes a play on a bad ISO. He looks like a great partner for Fultz for more transition plays, and it seems destined that Fultz will take over the team eventually.

I also think shooting concerns are 1-2 seasons premature at this point. Fultz and Isaac are still 2 seasons away from starting to give us a taste of their prime level abilities. Maybe I'm naive, but I have full confidence that both Fultz and Isaac will be shooting good numbers from deep by then. Seeing how smooth Fultz's midrange shot is just tells me it's only a matter of repetition and time until Fultz regains that confidence from 3, too. Isaac is consistently around the 33% area for 3's, which isn't a 'bad' number. It's the equivalent of a 45% fg attempt, which is a reasonable midrange number. But again, I just feel confident that Isaac will improve over the next 2 seasons. Meanwhile we've got Bamba who's 30% from 3 doesn't look great, it's pretty clear to see he has strong potential as a shooter.

So if you consider a future where Fultz, Isaac and Bamba all become reliable 3pt shooters in the 34-38% range, a lineup of Fultz/(X)/Gordon/Isaac/Bamba doesn't look so bad. But then that (X) needs to become someone like a Beal/D'Lo/LaVine/CJ, before the team will start looking exciting again.

Can we turn Fournier and Vuc into a package that will land us a player like that, though? That is the real question.

Hopefully. To be honest with you I’d rather keep AG and ditch the other vets. Mostly because I want Orlando to play modern basketball at some point this decade. It likely won’t happen though.