Nikola Vučević and Evan Fournier discussion

[Bensational]

Vuc and Fournier are meant to be #3 options on a contender.

Here is a list of the present 'Top 2' players of each team (my subjective opinion, feel free to changes names if you like).

In the East, I think Vuc and Fourier rank more or less where they belong. a .500ish team floating around 7th or 8th. Of the names beneath them, only Beal and Young are of high value to me. But at this point I'd probably take a gamble on LaVine, Lauri, Barrett or Graham, but I would only be hoping for improvement, not expecting it.

In the West, I don't think I'd take Vuc + Fournier over a single one of those duos, other than DD + LMA. And not many of the invidivuals, either.

Which brings us back to the original point - on a contender, Vuc + Fournier are #3 options at best. Looking at the bolded Top 6 teams in each conference, who would you take Vuc or Fournier over? Maybe Nunn.

WEST
LAL - LeBron + AD
DEN - Jokic + Murray
LAC - Kawhi + George
UTA - Mitchell + Bogdanovic
DAL - Doncic + KP
HOU - Harden + Westbrook
OKC - SGA + Paul
MEM - Morant + JJJr

PHO - Booker + Ayton
SAS - DD + LMA
*POR - Lillard + CJ
NOP - Ingram + JRue (+ Zion)
MIN - KAT + Wiggins
SAC - Fox + Hield
*GSW - Curry + Klay + D’Lo


EAST
MIL - Giannis + Middleton
MIA - Butler + Nunn
TOR - Siakam + Lowry
BOS - Kemba + Tatum + Brown
IND - Brogdon + Sabonis (+ Oladipo)
PHI - Embiid + Simmons + Harris
ORL - Vucevic + Fournier
*BKN - (Durant) + Kyrie + Dinwiddie

DET - Griffin + Drummond
CHI - LaVine + Lauri
CHA - Graham + Rozier
WAS - Beal + Hachimura (+ Wall)
CLE - Love + Sexton
NYK - Barrett + Randle
ATL - Young + Collins



But if we flip Vuc and Fournier for one of those names that does belong in the contender realm, then

ORL - Fultz + .......

starts looking like a paved path towards the future.

Um. How many of those #2's you have listed do you think are better than Vooch, offensively?

Green = I would rate/take them over Vuc.
Orange = I would probably take this player, but would happily accept if it appeared to be downgrading. I'd have trust in the player.
Red = I would keep Vuc over these players.

In terms of how Vuc actually does rate, offensively:

Out of the 76 players who have a USG of 22% or higher, and played over 25mpg, Vuc ranks 8th worst in TS%. 69th of 76.

Amongst those names you will see every #2 in that list above and then some. Of all those names, only Westbrook, Holiday, Porzingis, Griffen and Barrett are worse.

Vuc ranks 28th in the league for FGAs, but only 47th for PPG. Fournier, who takes fewer shots, scores more than Vuc.

Of the 64 names above, Vuc scores more PPG than 17 of them.(Graham, Rozier, Morant, Sabonis, JJJr, Brogdon, Murray, Ayton, Collins, Love, Drummond, Porzingis, Paul, Nunn/Adebayo, Simmons, Griffin, Markkannen). Some of those names are younger, up and coming prospects so of course I'd still take them over Vuc given the circumstances. But 47th in the league when you shoot the 28th highest amount of attempts just doesn't square in my books. Not for $28M a year.

[SHAQ32]

Vuc and Fournier are meant to be #3 options on a contender.

Here is a list of the present 'Top 2' players of each team (my subjective opinion, feel free to changes names if you like).

In the East, I think Vuc and Fourier rank more or less where they belong. a .500ish team floating around 7th or 8th. Of the names beneath them, only Beal and Young are of high value to me. But at this point I'd probably take a gamble on LaVine, Lauri, Barrett or Graham, but I would only be hoping for improvement, not expecting it.

In the West, I don't think I'd take Vuc + Fournier over a single one of those duos, other than DD + LMA. And not many of the invidivuals, either.

Which brings us back to the original point - on a contender, Vuc + Fournier are #3 options at best. Looking at the bolded Top 6 teams in each conference, who would you take Vuc or Fournier over? Maybe Nunn.

WEST
LAL - LeBron + AD
DEN - Jokic + Murray
LAC - Kawhi + George
UTA - Mitchell + Bogdanovic
DAL - Doncic + KP
HOU - Harden + Westbrook
OKC - SGA + Paul
MEM - Morant + JJJr

PHO - Booker + Ayton
SAS - DD + LMA
*POR - Lillard + CJ
NOP - Ingram + JRue (+ Zion)
MIN - KAT + Wiggins
SAC - Fox + Hield
*GSW - Curry + Klay + D’Lo


EAST
MIL - Giannis + Middleton
MIA - Butler + Nunn
TOR - Siakam + Lowry
BOS - Kemba + Tatum + Brown
IND - Brogdon + Sabonis (+ Oladipo)
PHI - Embiid + Simmons + Harris
ORL - Vucevic + Fournier
*BKN - (Durant) + Kyrie + Dinwiddie

DET - Griffin + Drummond
CHI - LaVine + Lauri
CHA - Graham + Rozier
WAS - Beal + Hachimura (+ Wall)
CLE - Love + Sexton
NYK - Barrett + Randle
ATL - Young + Collins



But if we flip Vuc and Fournier for one of those names that does belong in the contender realm, then

ORL - Fultz + .......

starts looking like a paved path towards the future.

Um. How many of those #2's you have listed do you think are better than Vooch, offensively?

Green = I would rate/take them over Vuc.
Orange = I would probably take this player, but would happily accept if it appeared to be downgrading. I'd have trust in the player.
Red = I would keep Vuc over these players.

In terms of how Vuc actually does rate, offensively:

Out of the 76 players who have a USG of 22% or higher, and played over 25mpg, Vuc ranks 8th worst in TS%. 69th of 76.

Amongst those names you will see every #2 in that list above and then some. Of all those names, only Westbrook, Holiday, Porzingis, Griffen and Barrett are worse.

Vuc ranks 28th in the league for FGAs, but only 47th for PPG. Fournier, who takes fewer shots, scores more than Vuc.

Of the 64 names above, Vuc scores more PPG than 17 of them.(Graham, Rozier, Morant, Sabonis, JJJr, Brogdon, Murray, Ayton, Collins, Love, Drummond, Porzingis, Paul, Nunn/Adebayo, Simmons, Griffin, Markkannen). Some of those names are younger, up and coming prospects so of course I'd still take them over Vuc given the circumstances. But 47th in the league when you shoot the 28th highest amount of attempts just doesn't square in my books. Not for $28M a year.

You're saying Vooch isn't a #2 on a contender, but at the same time say yourself that he's arguably better than the #2 in Milwaukee. Are the Bucks not a contender?

[Bensational]

Um. How many of those #2's you have listed do you think are better than Vooch, offensively?

Green = I would rate/take them over Vuc.
Orange = I would probably take this player, but would happily accept if it appeared to be downgrading. I'd have trust in the player.
Red = I would keep Vuc over these players.

In terms of how Vuc actually does rate, offensively:

Out of the 76 players who have a USG of 22% or higher, and played over 25mpg, Vuc ranks 8th worst in TS%. 69th of 76.

Amongst those names you will see every #2 in that list above and then some. Of all those names, only Westbrook, Holiday, Porzingis, Griffen and Barrett are worse.

Vuc ranks 28th in the league for FGAs, but only 47th for PPG. Fournier, who takes fewer shots, scores more than Vuc.

Of the 64 names above, Vuc scores more PPG than 17 of them.(Graham, Rozier, Morant, Sabonis, JJJr, Brogdon, Murray, Ayton, Collins, Love, Drummond, Porzingis, Paul, Nunn/Adebayo, Simmons, Griffin, Markkannen). Some of those names are younger, up and coming prospects so of course I'd still take them over Vuc given the circumstances. But 47th in the league when you shoot the 28th highest amount of attempts just doesn't square in my books. Not for $28M a year.

You're saying Vooch isn't a #2 on a contender, but at the same time say yourself that he's arguably better than the #2 in Milwaukee. Are the Bucks not a contender?

Yes, Giannis is good enough to make anyone an acceptable #2, I suppose. Although, he already has a version of Vuc on his team in Brooke Lopez, so that's more than likely the role he'd inherit on that Milwaukee team, and with Bledsoe there already, it's going to be a pretty loose #2 position. But whatever.

[Bensational]

My personal take on Vuc's value is that he's the perfect 'final piece'. Like Dwight to the Lakers. Like Gasol was to the Raptors, and Lopez was the Bucks. Bogut to the Warriors first ring. Horford to the Celtics/6ers (yet to work for either team, but it's within the principle).

He'd be a great addition to the Warriors, Rockets, Clippers, Lakers, Mavs, etc. But only a handful of those teams could consider entertaining the expense of it, before the cost eats into the core you want him playing alongside.

But we've got to focus on getting one of those Top 2's who carry you to a top 4 conference rank every year, first.

[pepe1991]

Almost all upper level teams from Ben's list also have AT LEAST one, another player who is either : great or was some sort of former star/allstar.

West
Lakers- Howard ( DPoy former allstar)
Clippers - Harrell, Lou
Nuggets - Barton / Millsap ( ex allstar)
Jazz- Gobert (DPOY,allstar this year probably )
Rockets- Gordon, Capela
OKC- Galinari
Memphis- Valenchunas

East
Bucks- Lopez (former allstar), Bledsoe (all nba defense)
Heat- Dragic ( former allstar), Adebayo
Raptors - Gasol (former DPOY, allstar) , Vleet
Celtics- Hayward (former allstar)
Celtics - Turner ( DPOY candidate)
Philly - Horford (allstar ,all nba defense)


And all of them are complimentary peaces. Yet pretty much any of them would become Magic second ( or even best ) player in a second. Or at worst, third option on offense.
This is main reason why it's hard for teams like Magic, Suns, Memphis even Dallas to crack into upper part of the standings. Teams above are way more stacked than them.
Yet Magic ( $130M,) Memphis ($125M ), Suns ( $121M), Dallas ($121M) have little salary flexibility to actually make some dramatic improvments.

[zaymon]

Its funny that we can play Fournier and Vucevic with more or less g league talent and they still make us competetive. Vucevic fg% is down becouse he shoots more 3s and teams started to triple team him. I can post the screen shot later but our second offensive possesion against Hornets, Bridges didnt even payed attention to Gordon, he just run to triple team Vuc in the post. I would like to see how good we are with recovered Fultz, Isaac as pf and competent sf.

[OrlandoNed]

Its funny that we can play Fournier and Vucevic with more or less g league talent and they still make us competetive. Vucevic fg% is down becouse he shoots more 3s and teams started to triple team him. I can post the screen shot later but our second offensive possesion against Hornets, Bridges didnt even payed attention to Gordon, he just run to triple team Vuc in the post. I would like to see how good we are with recovered Fultz, Isaac as pf and competent sf.

Yeah, we were just so competitive when we lost to Russell and the Santa Cruz Warriors by double digits. Remember how Fultz got us back into the lead and was promptly ignored in favor of Buddy Ball who quickly turned that lead into a 14 point deficit? Good times.

[Furinkazan]

Its funny that we can play Fournier and Vucevic with more or less g league talent and they still make us competetive. Vucevic fg% is down becouse he shoots more 3s and teams started to triple team him. I can post the screen shot later but our second offensive possesion against Hornets, Bridges didnt even payed attention to Gordon, he just run to triple team Vuc in the post. I would like to see how good we are with recovered Fultz, Isaac as pf and competent sf.

Yeah, we were just so competitive when we lost to Russell and the Santa Cruz Warriors by double digits. Remember how Fultz got us back into the lead and was promptly ignored in favor of Buddy Ball who quickly turned that lead into a 14 point deficit? Good times.

[zaymon]

Its funny that we can play Fournier and Vucevic with more or less g league talent and they still make us competetive. Vucevic fg% is down becouse he shoots more 3s and teams started to triple team him. I can post the screen shot later but our second offensive possesion against Hornets, Bridges didnt even payed attention to Gordon, he just run to triple team Vuc in the post. I would like to see how good we are with recovered Fultz, Isaac as pf and competent sf.

Yeah, we were just so competitive when we lost to Russell and the Santa Cruz Warriors by double digits. Remember how Fultz got us back into the lead and was promptly ignored in favor of Buddy Ball who quickly turned that lead into a 14 point deficit? Good times.

Well we are not contenders you expect us to win all games ? Lol. I rewatched last 6 minutes of this game, it came down too GSW making all of their tough shots and us missing open threes. Fultz is gassed in the end of games, he dont have the conditioning yet and without a shot he is limited to tough drives. Vucevic is dealing with triple teams becouse of Birch, Gordon and Fultz. Fournier was playing sick and with minor injury, Ross was awful and we still were in a position to win.

[j-ragg]

Truly despicable we have zero talent around Vuc and Fournier. They play so hard and go all out to win us games. They deserve statues outside of Amway for putting up with this.