OT - Current Affairs/COVID/Vaccines, etc

[Dr Manute]

Ignorant would be a better word, as uninformed, not stupid. I am more concerned about propaganda being used. We should have learned from WW2.

Watching the impeachment trial last night was quite worrisome. Blatant lies being said in defense of crimes committed by the US president and many within his admin. The US will have credibility issues going forward.

True, but that was 80 years ago, and Trump and his goons have convinced a large part of the population that they aren't doing their best Nazi impressions (though media will say "white nationalist" to soften it up for them). I mean trump is in love with dictators and would do away with democracy if it were up to him. It's sickening.

Too be fair, this was happening before trump, he just capitalized on it, and exploited the propaganda. While WW2 was 80 years ago, we all have learned about it in school. We should understand the parallels between then and now. Demonizing a minority group, or in our case, a few minority groups. Blame them for our problems, and then spread lies to continue the hatred and fear. trump is just a horrible human, and he should have never been a nominee for any party. It is pretty amazing to watch republican leadership go from recognizing trump's moral bankruptcy, to embracing it. History will not be kind.

It was saddening to watch world leaders stand around laughing at our leader, from both our allies and our advisories.

NOT TRUE - When was this done?

[bigfoot]

True, but that was 80 years ago, and Trump and his goons have convinced a large part of the population that they aren't doing their best Nazi impressions (though media will say "white nationalist" to soften it up for them). I mean trump is in love with dictators and would do away with democracy if it were up to him. It's sickening.

Too be fair, this was happening before trump, he just capitalized on it, and exploited the propaganda. While WW2 was 80 years ago, we all have learned about it in school. We should understand the parallels between then and now. Demonizing a minority group, or in our case, a few minority groups. Blame them for our problems, and then spread lies to continue the hatred and fear. trump is just a horrible human, and he should have never been a nominee for any party. It is pretty amazing to watch republican leadership go from recognizing trump's moral bankruptcy, to embracing it. History will not be kind.

It was saddening to watch world leaders stand around laughing at our leader, from both our allies and our advisories.

NOT TRUE - When was this done?

This is true, just open your eyes and ears on his twitter account and what he spouts at his rallies. Trump has gone after hispanics, the disabled, the Islam Religion, women, war veterans, and he supported white supremacists. He's gone through cabinet members and white house staff like a 14-year old boy goes through tissue paper. For most of my life, I've been and currently am a registered Republican other than a few years as an independent. Trump has destroyed the party and has truly damaged the U.S. Constitution and our Global reputation. He's a fking douche bag, womanizer, liar, megalomaniac, wanna-be dictator, silver spoon baby, draft dodger, and dumber than a box-of-rocks. Here's hoping he and the spineless Republican congressman who have enabled him get destroyed in the 2020 election.

Edit: I miss John McCain and Jeff Flake dearly.

[Dr Manute]

Too be fair, this was happening before trump, he just capitalized on it, and exploited the propaganda. While WW2 was 80 years ago, we all have learned about it in school. We should understand the parallels between then and now. Demonizing a minority group, or in our case, a few minority groups. Blame them for our problems, and then spread lies to continue the hatred and fear. trump is just a horrible human, and he should have never been a nominee for any party. It is pretty amazing to watch republican leadership go from recognizing trump's moral bankruptcy, to embracing it. History will not be kind.

It was saddening to watch world leaders stand around laughing at our leader, from both our allies and our advisories.

NOT TRUE - When was this done?

This is true, just open your eyes and ears on his twitter account and what he spouts at his rallies. Trump has gone after hispanics, the disabled, the Islam Religion, women, war veterans, and he supported white supremacists. He's gone through cabinet members and white house staff like a 14-year old boy goes through tissue paper. For most of my life, I've been and currently am a registered Republican other than a few years as an independent. Trump has destroyed the party and has truly damaged the U.S. Constitution and our Global reputation. He's a fking douche bag, womanizer, liar, megalomaniac, wanna-be dictator, silver spoon baby, draft dodger, and dumber than a box-of-rocks. Here's hoping he and the spineless Republican congressman who have enabled him get destroyed in the 2020 election.

Sounds like you don't like him . That's fine - I don't like some of the things he says - sometimes too off the cuff. I still don't think he has demonized a minority group - Yes he has spoken against people who were minorities - It's usually in retaliation, and taken out of context by the mainstream media. I like the fact he fights for America and is against the establishment (government elitists). You have to admit under his leadership America is at a higher level of prosperity and ALL American's are reaping the benefits - minorities included.

[Desertfox]

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. ... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists."

If that wasn't demonization of a minority group I don't know what is... Also blatantly false, since immigrants statistically commit less violent crimes natural born citizens. That's how he launched his campaign btw... As the son of a Mexican immigrants, this is a straight up personal attack on my family.

[RunDogGun]

NOT TRUE - When was this done?

This is true, just open your eyes and ears on his twitter account and what he spouts at his rallies. Trump has gone after hispanics, the disabled, the Islam Religion, women, war veterans, and he supported white supremacists. He's gone through cabinet members and white house staff like a 14-year old boy goes through tissue paper. For most of my life, I've been and currently am a registered Republican other than a few years as an independent. Trump has destroyed the party and has truly damaged the U.S. Constitution and our Global reputation. He's a fking douche bag, womanizer, liar, megalomaniac, wanna-be dictator, silver spoon baby, draft dodger, and dumber than a box-of-rocks. Here's hoping he and the spineless Republican congressman who have enabled him get destroyed in the 2020 election.

Sounds like you don't like him . That's fine - I don't like some of the things he says - sometimes too off the cuff. I still don't think he has demonized a minority group - Yes he has spoken against people who were minorities - It's usually in retaliation, and taken out of context by the mainstream media. I like the fact he fights for America and is against the establishment (government elitists). You have to admit under his leadership America is at a higher level of prosperity and ALL American's are reaping the benefits - minorities included.

It comes straight from his mouth, it doesn't matter which media outlet shows him saying it. He doesn't fight for America, he fights for himself. I challenge many people who think this by asking them which of his policies has affected the economy or unemployment, which changed it from the paths they were on before he became president. The only thing he has done was put in the massive tax break for the wealthy and trade wars with China. You can look to our farmers to see the effect of that trade war. It really doesn't take much to research these things, read articles about the economy from 2009-2019. Lastly, our deficits have skyrocketed under trump.

It isn't a matter of liking him or not liking him, its a matter knowing what he has said and done.

The sad part is there were tons of information which showed what kind of person trump is before he became president. Bragging about sexually assaulting women, bragging about barging in on teenagers while they undress because he was the boss, his destroying businesses, forcing people to take him to court to get what they worked for only to have him claim bankruptcy, starting a fraudulent university, committing crimes through his charities, committing tax fraud, and so much more. And that is just before running for office. While running he came out of the gates disparaging people from Mexico, calling for a ban of all Muslims into America, making fun of a disabled journalist "you should see this guy" and then does an impression of him, ripping POWs by claiming "I like heroes who aren't captured". All of this is not in retaliation, its just attacks because he is not a good person. But he is good at pushing propaganda, causing fear and hate towards many. Hate crimes have risen greatly under his presidency, and many hate groups cite him and praise him.

This is all known information. The Mueller report shows sworn testimony from his own people describing multiple counts of obstruction of justice into the investigation where his campaign was aware Russia was attacking our elections, asked Russia for help on tv, lied about the knowledge of that attack, benefitted from that attack, and has done little to nothing to stop Russia from doing it again. Now he has been caught extorting a vulnerable nation into getting them to just announce an investigation. The GAO has found that action to be illegal.

This goes far beyond just "not liking some for the things he says", it comes down to being aware that he has committed crimes before and during his presidency, and whether you care.

[bigfoot]

NOT TRUE - When was this done?

This is true, just open your eyes and ears on his twitter account and what he spouts at his rallies. Trump has gone after hispanics, the disabled, the Islam Religion, women, war veterans, and he supported white supremacists. He's gone through cabinet members and white house staff like a 14-year old boy goes through tissue paper. For most of my life, I've been and currently am a registered Republican other than a few years as an independent. Trump has destroyed the party and has truly damaged the U.S. Constitution and our Global reputation. He's a fking douche bag, womanizer, liar, megalomaniac, wanna-be dictator, silver spoon baby, draft dodger, and dumber than a box-of-rocks. Here's hoping he and the spineless Republican congressman who have enabled him get destroyed in the 2020 election.

Sounds like you don't like him . That's fine - I don't like some of the things he says - sometimes too off the cuff. I still don't think he has demonized a minority group - Yes he has spoken against people who were minorities - It's usually in retaliation, and taken out of context by the mainstream media. I like the fact he fights for America and is against the establishment (government elitists). You have to admit under his leadership America is at a higher level of prosperity and ALL American's are reaping the benefits - minorities included.

Trump has increased prosperity in anti-social behavior. He certainly hasn't created nationwide prosperity in wealth. It is way too early to gauge how the Trump Economy will play out. For example, the housing bubble under George W. was in large part caused by economic policies put in place or modified during the Clinton era. Sure your stock portfolio might look a bit better at the moment if that is your gauge of prosperity. I've been retired since age 50 and eliminated most of my high risk investments because the day-of-reckoning is coming.

[Dr Manute]

"When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. ... They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists."

If that wasn't demonization of a minority group I don't know what is... Also blatantly false, since immigrants statistically commit less violent crimes natural born citizens. That's how he launched his campaign btw... As the son of a Mexican immigrants, this is a straight up personal attack on my family.

I'm sure Trump was referring to ILLEGAL immigrants not immigrants in general. Check statistics for drugs, crime and rapes by illegal immigrants and compare them to the average US citizen. Also keep in mind illegals are already braking the law when they don't come into the country through the proper channels.

I am also a descendant of Mexican immigrants (legal) and I don't feel as if Trump is demonizing Mexican minorities. I'm sorry you feel like he is personally attacking your family. I don't believe all illegals are violent criminals, and I doubt he does either. Hell, I have friends that are illegals - I think a majority are good people trying to do what's best for their family. I think Trump his just trying to protect the citizens of America from those that are, those that bring threats of drugs, crime, sex trafficking - and issuing proper immigration channels are used. This IS his job as our President / Commander-in-Chief to defend us from threats foreign and domestic.

[Dr Manute]

This is true, just open your eyes and ears on his twitter account and what he spouts at his rallies. Trump has gone after hispanics, the disabled, the Islam Religion, women, war veterans, and he supported white supremacists. He's gone through cabinet members and white house staff like a 14-year old boy goes through tissue paper. For most of my life, I've been and currently am a registered Republican other than a few years as an independent. Trump has destroyed the party and has truly damaged the U.S. Constitution and our Global reputation. He's a fking douche bag, womanizer, liar, megalomaniac, wanna-be dictator, silver spoon baby, draft dodger, and dumber than a box-of-rocks. Here's hoping he and the spineless Republican congressman who have enabled him get destroyed in the 2020 election.

Sounds like you don't like him . That's fine - I don't like some of the things he says - sometimes too off the cuff. I still don't think he has demonized a minority group - Yes he has spoken against people who were minorities - It's usually in retaliation, and taken out of context by the mainstream media. I like the fact he fights for America and is against the establishment (government elitists). You have to admit under his leadership America is at a higher level of prosperity and ALL American's are reaping the benefits - minorities included.

Trump has increased prosperity in anti-social behavior. He certainly hasn't created nationwide prosperity in wealth. It is way too early to gauge how the Trump Economy will play out. For example, the housing bubble under George W. was in large part caused by economic policies put in place or modified during the Clinton era. Sure your stock portfolio might look a bit better at the moment if that is your gauge of prosperity. I've been retired since age 50 and eliminated most of my high risk investments because the day-of-reckoning is coming.

I do agree with this.

[Dr Manute]

This is true, just open your eyes and ears on his twitter account and what he spouts at his rallies. Trump has gone after hispanics, the disabled, the Islam Religion, women, war veterans, and he supported white supremacists. He's gone through cabinet members and white house staff like a 14-year old boy goes through tissue paper. For most of my life, I've been and currently am a registered Republican other than a few years as an independent. Trump has destroyed the party and has truly damaged the U.S. Constitution and our Global reputation. He's a fking douche bag, womanizer, liar, megalomaniac, wanna-be dictator, silver spoon baby, draft dodger, and dumber than a box-of-rocks. Here's hoping he and the spineless Republican congressman who have enabled him get destroyed in the 2020 election.

Sounds like you don't like him . That's fine - I don't like some of the things he says - sometimes too off the cuff. I still don't think he has demonized a minority group - Yes he has spoken against people who were minorities - It's usually in retaliation, and taken out of context by the mainstream media. I like the fact he fights for America and is against the establishment (government elitists). You have to admit under his leadership America is at a higher level of prosperity and ALL American's are reaping the benefits - minorities included.

It comes straight from his mouth, it doesn't matter which media outlet shows him saying it. He doesn't fight for America, he fights for himself. I challenge many people who think this by asking them which of his policies has affected the economy or unemployment, which changed it from the paths they were on before he became president. The only thing he has done was put in the massive tax break for the wealthy and trade wars with China. You can look to our farmers to see the effect of that trade war. It really doesn't take much to research these things, read articles about the economy from 2009-2019. Lastly, our deficits have skyrocketed under trump.

It isn't a matter of liking him or not liking him, its a matter knowing what he has said and done.

The sad part is there were tons of information which showed what kind of person trump is before he became president. Bragging about sexually assaulting women, bragging about barging in on teenagers while they undress because he was the boss, his destroying businesses, forcing people to take him to court to get what they worked for only to have him claim bankruptcy, starting a fraudulent university, committing crimes through his charities, committing tax fraud, and so much more. And that is just before running for office. While running he came out of the gates disparaging people from Mexico, calling for a ban of all Muslims into America, making fun of a disabled journalist "you should see this guy" and then does an impression of him, ripping POWs by claiming "I like heroes who aren't captured". All of this is not in retaliation, its just attacks because he is not a good person. But he is good at pushing propaganda, causing fear and hate towards many. Hate crimes have risen greatly under his presidency, and many hate groups cite him and praise him.

This is all known information. The Mueller report shows sworn testimony from his own people describing multiple counts of obstruction of justice into the investigation where his campaign was aware Russia was attacking our elections, asked Russia for help on tv, lied about the knowledge of that attack, benefitted from that attack, and has done little to nothing to stop Russia from doing it again. Now he has been caught extorting a vulnerable nation into getting them to just announce an investigation. The GAO has found that action to be illegal.

This goes far beyond just "not liking some for the things he says", it comes down to being aware that he has committed crimes before and during his presidency, and whether you care.

I hope to respond to your post - you have a lot of points I would like to address and it will take some time that I don't have today. I will try to make time later.

[Desertfox]

I'm sure Trump was referring to ILLEGAL immigrants not immigrants in general. Check statistics for drugs, crime and rapes by illegal immigrants and compare them to the average US citizen. Also keep in mind illegals are already braking the law when they don't come into the country through the proper channels.

I am also a descendant of Mexican immigrants (legal) and I don't feel as if Trump is demonizing Mexican minorities. I'm sorry you feel like he is personally attacking your family. I don't believe all illegals are violent criminals, and I doubt he does either. Hell, I have friends that are illegals - I think a majority are good people trying to do what's best for their family. I think Trump his just trying to protect the citizens of America from those that are, those that bring threats of drugs, crime, sex trafficking - and issuing proper immigration channels are used. This IS his job as our President / Commander-in-Chief to defend us from threats foreign and domestic.

I have checked the statistics, undocumented immigrants commit less violent crimes than legal immigrants, who in turn commit less crimes than citizens. Being in the US undocumented is not a crime (felony or misdemeanor), it is a civil violation on par with stuff such as speeding, which I am sure we have all been guilty off at one time or another. So yes his statement was blatantly false, targeted a specific group (Mexican immigrants*), and increased the chance of citizens of Mexican decent of being targeted.

*The immigration rate from Mexico into the US is currently negative (more Mexicans going back than coming in), so if he was really talking about "illegal" immigrants, he was talking about the wrong group.

[sunskerr]

Watch on YouTube

This is probably one of the more easy ways to show how debating Trump supporters for the sake of convincing them, whilst it can be entertaining, is probably going to be a waste of time. You have plain as day, nigh irrefutable evidence that one of their talking points (the stock market talking point) is false, and yet the responses are simply avoidant of being defeated on that point in favour of whatever it is the Trump supporter feels is an adequate response to preserve their own feeling of being “right”.

From a scientific perspective it’s just interesting to see how the human brain works to preserve the way it perceives the world. This happens to people concerning many other topics that they can be wrong about and not just politics. We see it on the forum all the time and I’m sure you’ve seen it from myself.

So when you’re dealing with people like this (particularly when it comes to Trump) I think it’s more important to keep in mind that the people you should be trying to convince are the audience (your fellow forum members and lurkers) that you are debating in front of.

[Dr Manute]

I'm sure Trump was referring to ILLEGAL immigrants not immigrants in general. Check statistics for drugs, crime and rapes by illegal immigrants and compare them to the average US citizen. Also keep in mind illegals are already braking the law when they don't come into the country through the proper channels.

I am also a descendant of Mexican immigrants (legal) and I don't feel as if Trump is demonizing Mexican minorities. I'm sorry you feel like he is personally attacking your family. I don't believe all illegals are violent criminals, and I doubt he does either. Hell, I have friends that are illegals - I think a majority are good people trying to do what's best for their family. I think Trump his just trying to protect the citizens of America from those that are, those that bring threats of drugs, crime, sex trafficking - and issuing proper immigration channels are used. This IS his job as our President / Commander-in-Chief to defend us from threats foreign and domestic.

I have checked the statistics, undocumented immigrants commit less violent crimes than legal immigrants, who in turn commit less crimes than citizens. Being in the US undocumented is not a crime (felony or misdemeanor), it is a civil violation on par with stuff such as speeding, which I am sure we have all been guilty off at one time or another. So yes his statement was blatantly false, targeted a specific group (Mexican immigrants*), and increased the chance of citizens of Mexican decent of being targeted.

*The immigration rate from Mexico into the US is currently negative (more Mexicans going back than coming in), so if he was really talking about "illegal" immigrants, he was talking about the wrong group.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3099992

[Dr Manute]

Watch on YouTube

This is probably one of the more easy ways to show how debating Trump supporters for the sake of convincing them, whilst it can be entertaining, is probably going to be a waste of time. You have plain as day, nigh irrefutable evidence that one of their talking points (the stock market talking point) is false, and yet the responses are simply avoidant of being defeated on that point in favour of whatever it is the Trump supporter feels is an adequate response to preserve their own feeling of being “right”.

From a scientific perspective it’s just interesting to see how the human brain works to preserve the way it perceives the world. This happens to people concerning many other topics that they can be wrong about and not just politics. We see it on the forum all the time and I’m sure you’ve seen it from myself.

So when you’re dealing with people like this (particularly when it comes to Trump) I think it’s more important to keep in mind that the people you should be trying to convince are the audience (your fellow forum members and lurkers) that you are debating in front of.

I think you may be right - a waste of time - If I can't even convince must of you Suns fans that Doncic should be given more thought with the 1st pick, how can I explain the benefits of Trump's policies.

[ATTL]

Any chance yang wins? I want my $1k a month so I can move out of my basement.

[grumpysaddle]

Trump supporters just aren't worth the time spent in arguing. They're a lost cause.

[Desertfox]

I'm sure Trump was referring to ILLEGAL immigrants not immigrants in general. Check statistics for drugs, crime and rapes by illegal immigrants and compare them to the average US citizen. Also keep in mind illegals are already braking the law when they don't come into the country through the proper channels.

I am also a descendant of Mexican immigrants (legal) and I don't feel as if Trump is demonizing Mexican minorities. I'm sorry you feel like he is personally attacking your family. I don't believe all illegals are violent criminals, and I doubt he does either. Hell, I have friends that are illegals - I think a majority are good people trying to do what's best for their family. I think Trump his just trying to protect the citizens of America from those that are, those that bring threats of drugs, crime, sex trafficking - and issuing proper immigration channels are used. This IS his job as our President / Commander-in-Chief to defend us from threats foreign and domestic.

I have checked the statistics, undocumented immigrants commit less violent crimes than legal immigrants, who in turn commit less crimes than citizens. Being in the US undocumented is not a crime (felony or misdemeanor), it is a civil violation on par with stuff such as speeding, which I am sure we have all been guilty off at one time or another. So yes his statement was blatantly false, targeted a specific group (Mexican immigrants*), and increased the chance of citizens of Mexican decent of being targeted.

*The immigration rate from Mexico into the US is currently negative (more Mexicans going back than coming in), so if he was really talking about "illegal" immigrants, he was talking about the wrong group.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3099992

I love how the paper admits how every other study has come to the opposite conclusion and ignores Arpaio's systematic targetting of Arizona's immigrant population to the tune of ignoring other criminal activities.

[grumpysaddle]

I have checked the statistics, undocumented immigrants commit less violent crimes than legal immigrants, who in turn commit less crimes than citizens. Being in the US undocumented is not a crime (felony or misdemeanor), it is a civil violation on par with stuff such as speeding, which I am sure we have all been guilty off at one time or another. So yes his statement was blatantly false, targeted a specific group (Mexican immigrants*), and increased the chance of citizens of Mexican decent of being targeted.

*The immigration rate from Mexico into the US is currently negative (more Mexicans going back than coming in), so if he was really talking about "illegal" immigrants, he was talking about the wrong group.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3099992

I love how the paper admits how every other study has come to the opposite conclusion and ignores Arpaio's systematic targetting of Arizona's immigrant population to the tune of ignoring other criminal activities.

Lol. Right? Also, of course they're convicted more. People of color are always convicted more. White privilege is a huuuuuge issue and Trump and his cronies are enabling white supremacy every chance they get. This country hasn't been as divided as it is now since the 60s. Regression is the new norm.

[RunDogGun]

Pretty amazing, but trump just bragged about obstructing justice yesterday, "we have all the material". He just doesn't understand that he works for the American people, and that committing crimes is wrong.

[Dr Manute]

Trump supporters just aren't worth the time spent in arguing. They're a lost cause.

I was going to respond to some more of the posts above, but I think you are right we are all too stuck in our beliefs - it would be a waste of time to argue. I heard from someone once that it is easier to persuade someone to change their religion then it is to change their political ideology.

We will see what happens during the impeachment trial. If Trump is found guilty of any high crimes and misdemeanors then I would want him to be removed. Know that I care about this country and I only want the best for our future. Peace be to you all.

[RunDogGun]

Trump supporters just aren't worth the time spent in arguing. They're a lost cause.

I was going to respond to some more of the posts above, but I think you are right we are all too stuck in our beliefs - it would be a waste of time to argue. I heard from someone once that it is easier to persuade someone to change their religion then it is to change their political ideology.

We will see what happens during the impeachment trial. If Trump is found guilty of any high crimes and misdemeanors then I would want him to be removed. Know that I care about this country and I only want the best for our future. Peace be to you all.

Oddly, this doesn't have to do with beliefs really. This comes down to facts. trump has committed crimes, this is according to his own mouth, sworn testimony from his own people, and court documents. He literally just admitted to obstruction of justice yesterday. The problem is many Americans either don't care, or are just uniformed of the known facts.

He won't be found guilty, because the republicans in the senate are in lock step with the president. They don't seem to care that trump has blocked all evidence and witnesses from telling the American public the truth. One's political party shouldn't matter when it comes to the truth. You either see it, refuse to see it, or just completely blind to it. The good news is that these are all things you can look up for yourself. Start with reading the Mueller report. Right there will give you at least 10 counts of obstruction of justice.