2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 2)

[E-Balla]

So true Bro.

You know why? Cause the fkn Knicks fans are doped up with the thought of new shiny things.
Knox hits a low point - get rid of him, draft another
Frank hits a low point - get rid of him, draft another
Mithc hits a low point - get rid of him , draft another

Then...

Wiseman hits a low point - get rid of him, draft another.

Never-ending cycle for mthrfkn Knicks fans. Never develop these young kids, thow them out with the wash and but new ones. Is their motto.

Mitch hasn't hit a low point, he's a **** monster. He's just not Wiseman.

Frank on the other hand hasn't improved much in 3 seasons and is still playing 21 mpg and giving us 6/2/3 on sub 40% shooting just like his rookie and sophomore years so nothing about his production is a low point.

Knox was a terrible draft pick. We should've gotten rid of him on draft night.

Stop tripping. He was 18 and still growing both physically and mentally. You guys have no patience when drafting kids and I feel that the small minority of this fkn fan base deserves the 50 years of misery.

He was 18? So were other players in the NCAA that were way better than him. He sucked for an 18 year old, why think he won't suck for a 25 year old?

[TheScout31]

Wiseman’s footwork in PnR, awareness off ball, and pretty much overall defense when things aren’t directly in front of him is bad. Awareness is better than it was in BS/AAU, but still not good.

His offensive arsenal isn’t much, either - he flashes moves, but also takes bad shots (turnaround fades with size advantage, for example), and is not consistent in pretty much anything besides rim running. Inefficient in EYBL / Peach Jam, too.

Agree with E-Ball saying his upside is Gobert, but he has a long ways to go to get to where Rudy’s level on defense.

I’d also like to add Mitch’s offense isn’t as good as Wiseman’s, but his defensive potential is an interesting discussion bc Mitch will be hampered by his frame making up for it with mobility but Wiseman has other major concerns but an awesome frame.

I said that's Mitch's upside. Wiseman is a 2 way player and his offensive upside is well beyond Rudy and Mitch. Mitch has no touch. Right there his offensive potential is capped. If we tried to make Mitch a scoring option I'd work just as well as Drummond has as a first option. That 70% from the field would be 55% real quick.

EDIT: I just looked it up and Mitch is 49% on layups. Gobert is 52% on layups and Tyson Chandler at 20 was 50% on layups. Someone with offensive potential that's raw like rookie Yao Ming was 56% on layups. Dwight at 22 was 58%. Amare at 22 was 57%.

My mistake, it’s been a long day. Not sure why you think Wiseman’s upside on offense is well beyond Rudy. Aside from basic shooting projection, there’s not much else there. He’s a rim runner through and through with some C&S potential and some mid range PnPs. Sure, you can dump it down, but he’s far from polished down there (with not great selection or footwork, besides the post fade which goes to poor shot selection often, and he’s not a passer out of the post). If you’re posting him up, you’re being inefficient unless something major changes IMO.

[TheScout31]

Mitch hasn't hit a low point, he's a **** monster. He's just not Wiseman.

Frank on the other hand hasn't improved much in 3 seasons and is still playing 21 mpg and giving us 6/2/3 on sub 40% shooting just like his rookie and sophomore years so nothing about his production is a low point.

Knox was a terrible draft pick. We should've gotten rid of him on draft night.

Stop tripping. He was 18 and still growing both physically and mentally. You guys have no patience when drafting kids and I feel that the small minority of this fkn fan base deserves the 50 years of misery.

He was 18? So were other players in the NCAA that were way better than him. He sucked for an 18 year old, why think he won't suck for a 25 year old?

From what I’ve gathered/know, Knox’s value has always been low outside of the Knicks’ FO. Interestingly enough, he showed nothing in college that should have made anyone say “select me in mid lotto.”

[E-Balla]

Stop tripping. He was 18 and still growing both physically and mentally. You guys have no patience when drafting kids and I feel that the small minority of this fkn fan base deserves the 50 years of misery.

He was 18? So were other players in the NCAA that were way better than him. He sucked for an 18 year old, why think he won't suck for a 25 year old?

From what I’ve gathered/know, Knox’s value has always been low outside of the Knicks’ FO. Interestingly enough, he showed nothing in college that should have made anyone say “select me in mid lotto.”

He wasn't a lotto pick in most mocks until the Knicks worked him out. His average spot (because I remember doing an analysis after we drafted him because I was heated when we drafted him - so heated I retired from the NCAA thread for a year) was 15th in mocks.

[E-Balla]

Wiseman’s footwork in PnR, awareness off ball, and pretty much overall defense when things aren’t directly in front of him is bad. Awareness is better than it was in BS/AAU, but still not good.

His offensive arsenal isn’t much, either - he flashes moves, but also takes bad shots (turnaround fades with size advantage, for example), and is not consistent in pretty much anything besides rim running. Inefficient in EYBL / Peach Jam, too.

Agree with E-Ball saying his upside is Gobert, but he has a long ways to go to get to where Rudy’s level on defense.

I’d also like to add Mitch’s offense isn’t as good as Wiseman’s, but his defensive potential is an interesting discussion bc Mitch will be hampered by his frame making up for it with mobility but Wiseman has other major concerns but an awesome frame.

I said that's Mitch's upside. Wiseman is a 2 way player and his offensive upside is well beyond Rudy and Mitch. Mitch has no touch. Right there his offensive potential is capped. If we tried to make Mitch a scoring option I'd work just as well as Drummond has as a first option. That 70% from the field would be 55% real quick.

EDIT: I just looked it up and Mitch is 49% on layups. Gobert is 52% on layups and Tyson Chandler at 20 was 50% on layups. Someone with offensive potential that's raw like rookie Yao Ming was 56% on layups. Dwight at 22 was 58%. Amare at 22 was 57%.

My mistake, it’s been a long day. Not sure why you think Wiseman’s upside on offense is well beyond Rudy. Aside from basic shooting projection, there’s not much else there. He’s a rim runner through and through with some C&S potential and some mid range PnPs. Sure, you can dump it down, but he’s far from polished down there (with not great selection or footwork, besides the post fade which goes to poor shot selection often, and he’s not a passer out of the post). If you’re posting him up, you’re being inefficient unless something major changes IMO.

Touch. That "basic shooting projection" is called touch. Some players have it and some don't but as a young big you need touch to develop in the post. No one at age 18 outside of Jahlil Okafor and a few others have a post game that young. Most young bigs look robotic as hell down low especially in 2020.

KAT didn't have a post game that young (he was polished but not down low) and neither did AD. Both guys had touch though so they were able to develop. Towns was 63% on layups as a 20 year old and AD was 56%. Wiseman watching him play has touch. He can score outside of dunks. Mitch can't, he's as likely to miss a layup next to the rim (he's 55% on non dunks in the restricted area) as he is to make one.

[god shammgod]

My (likely unpopular) take...

Mitch does not have the personality, temperament or mindset to be a star. Wiseman because of his draft ranking and (honestly) more impressive physical tools at least can become one. Doesn't mean he will become one. Wiseman in 3 games at Memphis has taken more jump shots than Mitch has in 2 years. Wiseman's offensive game is more refined at 18 than Mitch at 21. I do not see Robinson being able to improve offensively by much and will "just" be a shotblocking defensive rebounder. Nothing wrong with that, but they don't have the same upside. Potential 2 way players have a lot more value than those that are not.

Again, doesn't mean the Knicks should draft him if they had a choice but that doesn't mean the two players are close to one another from a potential standpoint. IMO it's not even close. Put it differently. If you had a choice of keeping Robinson or replacing him with Wiseman AND still getting to take another top lottery guy, I would guess that most (none Knick fans) would go Wiseman and Ball or Wiseman and Edwards or Wiseman and Haliburton or Wiseman and [fill in whomever].

What we are talking about is a known commodity vs. a risk sure. But where the risk, if he bears fruit, would be more than the known commodity. Which one would be hypothetically better for the Knicks? Don't know.

I highly disagree with the bolded. I think Wiseman is a little more coordinated and in tune with his body than Mitch is but Mitch's body type, hands, explosion, foot speed and length are all elite for a modern Center and better than Wiseman's.

I could get on board with Wiseman if he thought the game at a significantly higher level than Mitch but I don't even see that (1 assist to 3 turnovers in 3 college games against mostly sub par competition).

He's not some high IQ guy on either end that's why I tend to side with rolling with the physically more gifted Center which, to me, is Mitch in a landslide.

Mitch's hands still seem a little suspect. In particular, there have been a few games this year where he looks like he's playing with broken fingers. He did hurt his fingers at some point, right?

he has multiple bad fingers he's been playing with since november. you can see them wrapped up in just about any photo of him.

[TheScout31]

I said that's Mitch's upside. Wiseman is a 2 way player and his offensive upside is well beyond Rudy and Mitch. Mitch has no touch. Right there his offensive potential is capped. If we tried to make Mitch a scoring option I'd work just as well as Drummond has as a first option. That 70% from the field would be 55% real quick.

EDIT: I just looked it up and Mitch is 49% on layups. Gobert is 52% on layups and Tyson Chandler at 20 was 50% on layups. Someone with offensive potential that's raw like rookie Yao Ming was 56% on layups. Dwight at 22 was 58%. Amare at 22 was 57%.

My mistake, it’s been a long day. Not sure why you think Wiseman’s upside on offense is well beyond Rudy. Aside from basic shooting projection, there’s not much else there. He’s a rim runner through and through with some C&S potential and some mid range PnPs. Sure, you can dump it down, but he’s far from polished down there (with not great selection or footwork, besides the post fade which goes to poor shot selection often, and he’s not a passer out of the post). If you’re posting him up, you’re being inefficient unless something major changes IMO.

Touch. That "basic shooting projection" is called touch. Some players have it and some don't but as a young big you need touch to develop in the post. No one at age 18 outside of Jahlil Okafor and a few others have a post game that young. Most young bigs look robotic as hell down low especially in 2020.

KAT didn't have a post game that young (he was polished but not down low) and neither did AD. Both guys had touch though so they were able to develop. Towns was 63% on layups as a 20 year old and AD was 56%. Wiseman watching him play has touch. He can score outside of dunks. Mitch can't, he's as likely to miss a layup next to the rim (he's 55% on non dunks in the restricted area) as he is to make one.

No need to be condescending, man.

KAT was more advanced than Wiseman as was AD in terms of post moves and shooting. My comparison isn’t against Mitch because, as I said, I agree his offensive upside is better than Mitch’s. I just don’t think Wiseman has as much upside as others here, and I know at least NBA people feel the same way. This idea that he’s some offensive unicorn that I’ve seen floating around in here is something I’ve always found a bit odd, which is why I stopped posting about Wiseman - people didn’t like it.

[TheGreenArrow]

Stop tripping. He was 18 and still growing both physically and mentally. You guys have no patience when drafting kids and I feel that the small minority of this fkn fan base deserves the 50 years of misery.

He was 18? So were other players in the NCAA that were way better than him. He sucked for an 18 year old, why think he won't suck for a 25 year old?

From what I’ve gathered/know, Knox’s value has always been low outside of the Knicks’ FO. Interestingly enough, he showed nothing in college that should have made anyone say “select me in mid lotto.”

What are you hearing rite now in regards to the knicks and who they like rite now??

Lamelo,wiseman,edwards?? Is this fo even going to be around to make the selection??

[Zenzibar]

He was 18? So were other players in the NCAA that were way better than him. He sucked for an 18 year old, why think he won't suck for a 25 year old?

From what I’ve gathered/know, Knox’s value has always been low outside of the Knicks’ FO. Interestingly enough, he showed nothing in college that should have made anyone say “select me in mid lotto.”

What are you hearing rite now in regards to the knicks and who they like rite now??

Lamelo,wiseman,edwards?? Is this fo even going to be around to make the selection??

Glad you asked. We seem to have flawless draft "experts" in our mists.

[TheScout31]

He was 18? So were other players in the NCAA that were way better than him. He sucked for an 18 year old, why think he won't suck for a 25 year old?

From what I’ve gathered/know, Knox’s value has always been low outside of the Knicks’ FO. Interestingly enough, he showed nothing in college that should have made anyone say “select me in mid lotto.”

What are you hearing rite now in regards to the knicks and who they like rite now??

Lamelo,wiseman,edwards?? Is this fo even going to be around to make the selection??

That's not something I'm saying publicly. Sorry, dude.

[TheGreenArrow]

From what I’ve gathered/know, Knox’s value has always been low outside of the Knicks’ FO. Interestingly enough, he showed nothing in college that should have made anyone say “select me in mid lotto.”

What are you hearing rite now in regards to the knicks and who they like rite now??

Lamelo,wiseman,edwards?? Is this fo even going to be around to make the selection??

That's not something I'm saying publicly. Sorry, dude.

That sucks but i understand.

[HarthorneWingo]

Stop tripping. He was 18 and still growing both physically and mentally. You guys have no patience when drafting kids and I feel that the small minority of this fkn fan base deserves the 50 years of misery.

He was 18? So were other players in the NCAA that were way better than him. He sucked for an 18 year old, why think he won't suck for a 25 year old?

From what I’ve gathered/know, Knox’s value has always been low outside of the Knicks’ FO. Interestingly enough, he showed nothing in college that should have made anyone say “select me in mid lotto.”

But that workout with Fizdale.

[HarthorneWingo]

I highly disagree with the bolded. I think Wiseman is a little more coordinated and in tune with his body than Mitch is but Mitch's body type, hands, explosion, foot speed and length are all elite for a modern Center and better than Wiseman's.

I could get on board with Wiseman if he thought the game at a significantly higher level than Mitch but I don't even see that (1 assist to 3 turnovers in 3 college games against mostly sub par competition).

He's not some high IQ guy on either end that's why I tend to side with rolling with the physically more gifted Center which, to me, is Mitch in a landslide.

Mitch's hands still seem a little suspect. In particular, there have been a few games this year where he looks like he's playing with broken fingers. He did hurt his fingers at some point, right?

he has multiple bad fingers he's been playing with since november. you can see them wrapped up in just about any photo of him.

I think it's the left hand that's been the problem. Mitch should get the green light to shoot 15'-17' open jumpers.

[E-Balla]

My mistake, it’s been a long day. Not sure why you think Wiseman’s upside on offense is well beyond Rudy. Aside from basic shooting projection, there’s not much else there. He’s a rim runner through and through with some C&S potential and some mid range PnPs. Sure, you can dump it down, but he’s far from polished down there (with not great selection or footwork, besides the post fade which goes to poor shot selection often, and he’s not a passer out of the post). If you’re posting him up, you’re being inefficient unless something major changes IMO.

Touch. That "basic shooting projection" is called touch. Some players have it and some don't but as a young big you need touch to develop in the post. No one at age 18 outside of Jahlil Okafor and a few others have a post game that young. Most young bigs look robotic as hell down low especially in 2020.

KAT didn't have a post game that young (he was polished but not down low) and neither did AD. Both guys had touch though so they were able to develop. Towns was 63% on layups as a 20 year old and AD was 56%. Wiseman watching him play has touch. He can score outside of dunks. Mitch can't, he's as likely to miss a layup next to the rim (he's 55% on non dunks in the restricted area) as he is to make one.

No need to be condescending, man.

KAT was more advanced than Wiseman as was AD in terms of post moves and shooting. My comparison isn’t against Mitch because, as I said, I agree his offensive upside is better than Mitch’s. I just don’t think Wiseman has as much upside as others here, and I know at least NBA people feel the same way. This idea that he’s some offensive unicorn that I’ve seen floating around in here is something I’ve always found a bit odd, which is why I stopped posting about Wiseman - people didn’t like it.

I don't think Wiseman is great offensively. His biggest positive is his physical abilities. I do think he could become a 20-25 ppg scorer someday though and even if it's not as THE man that's valuable offense when you add his ability on the boards.

[Marty McFly]

lol Ayton

are you going to pretend he wasn't the number 1 overall pick?

He was, but he never should’ve been.

I agree but that’s not the point. I don’t think wiseman was as impressive as Ayton athletically, which is why he got drafted at one along with a decent set of big skills.

[Marty McFly]

My biggest problem with Wiseman is that he looks like a project and this team **** sucks at developing players. We’re horrible at it.

[robillionaire]

My biggest problem with Wiseman is that he looks like a project and this team **** sucks at developing players. We’re horrible at it.

Everybody is a project

we have to just keep trying. or just trade the pick for drummond or some washed all star

[Marty McFly]

My biggest problem with Wiseman is that he looks like a project and this team **** sucks at developing players. We’re horrible at it.

Everybody is a project

we have to just keep trying. or just trade the pick for drummond or some washed all star

everyone is a project but some players are more of a project than others.

[DLTGWH]

Age is used like a crutch all the time. RJ Barret 18 and he shows a heck of a lot more than frank or Knox showed. Knox scored some buckets last year when given minutes and he could develop into a homeless persons late stage Carmelo Anthony type of player but if that’s what he is that’s a rotten pick. You can’t fix His bad motor. Or the lack of agility/athleticism from those clown looking feet.

Frank isn’t very athletic either. Whoever compared him to Oladipo at 21 doesn’t realize oladipo a freak. Also he was taken before D Mitchell who’s turned into a star and if knicks FO has any foresight (which they clearly don’t) should have been the pick.

Bottom line, yes these kids could get better and be developed under the right leadership but they were bad picks.

[E-Balla]

My biggest problem with Wiseman is that he looks like a project and this team **** sucks at developing players. We’re horrible at it.

Everybody is a project

we have to just keep trying. or just trade the pick for drummond or some washed all star

everyone is a project but some players are more of a project than others.

How many 18 year old big men aren't projects at least to the same extent Wiseman is? Embiid was definitely one as was Dwight Howard and AD and they're the 3 best traditional Cs of the 2010s.