Game 44: Indiana Pacers (28-16) @ Phoenix Suns (18-25)

[Desertfox]

JJ has been an absolute trainwreck. The Anderson-TJ (why why not Dragic...) trade destroyed the last offseason and his only "wins" have been due to mistakes/worse front offices (Oubre and Rubio). Even the Baynes trade was more the Celtics being desperate to drop salary, than anything he did, and the Saric trade was probably a salary dump by the Wolves where they managed to move up in the draft!

[BobbieL]

The Tyler Johnson trade was a fiasco .. plain and simple

If they had just kept Anderson - they would have bought him out - saved a bunch of money on the cap and probably could have signed a Rubio and kept Warren.

All along I wanted to keep Warren. He was a good player getting better. I know at some point I probably wrote some things that I talked myself into. But I always thought TJ could be a good solid 6th man since the knock on him was no defense or rebounding.

Jones next move will be more closely analyzed by me.... glass will be half full until something is shown.

I said this all last year(after the trade). Many here kept praising the trade of Johnson for Anderson.

Warren is a solid starter, as we have seen on a good Pacer team. Hopefully we learn from that mistake, and not try and bench Oubre.

My biggest problem at the time of the Tyler trade: and he did play well in those limited games last year and was hoping he would do the same - but my biggest question was: Tyler makes 19.4m per year - what contract were you trading for. Gambo said he was a better trade asset. I didn't buy it than. As we have seen, the contracts you are trading for are probably Kevin Love and not somebody like GAllinari

[Maze]

We're way down in the depths.Grime at the bottom of the garbage can.To the point we cling to/lament over decent 6th man players like TJ Warren & Kelly Oubre.Personally, I think TJ's slightly better.TJ's a black hole on offense, but Kelly's pure chaos.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

We're way down in the depths.Grime at the bottom of the garbage can.To the point we cling to/lament over decent 6th man players like TJ Warren & Kelly Oubre.Personally, I think TJ's slightly better.TJ's a black hole on offense, but Kelly's pure chaos.

I always thought TJ was underrated by fans here, but I prefer Kelly because I think he gives your team more energy, defense and rebounding.

The change of tune about TJ on this board is telling. They hated him while he was here, and now they love him. I vacillate about the direction of the team quite a bit, but much less so when it comes to players - especially after you've watched them for five years, as we had with TJ.

[RunDogGun]

We're way down in the depths.Grime at the bottom of the garbage can.To the point we cling to/lament over decent 6th man players like TJ Warren & Kelly Oubre.Personally, I think TJ's slightly better.TJ's a black hole on offense, but Kelly's pure chaos.

I always thought TJ was underrated by fans here, but I prefer Kelly because I think he gives your team more energy, defense and rebounding.

The change of tune about TJ on this board is telling. They hated him while he was here, and now they love him. I vacillate about the direction of the team quite a bit, but much less so when it comes to players - especially after you've watched them for five years, as we had with TJ.

TJ was underrated around the league. Kelly has been solid this year, and like you said, gives your team more energy. That is probably because he plays with more emotion.

I think most people here are just upset we traded a decent player for cash. What worries me is the same thing that happened to TJ seems to be happening to Oubre. The fans are including him in trades, and people want to move him to the bench. He has been a solid starter. We just need better bench guys. Honestly, we should have drafted Culver and kept Bender. Or made a different trade to move back for a guard and drafted Clarke.

But we are where we are.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

We're way down in the depths.Grime at the bottom of the garbage can.To the point we cling to/lament over decent 6th man players like TJ Warren & Kelly Oubre.Personally, I think TJ's slightly better.TJ's a black hole on offense, but Kelly's pure chaos.

I always thought TJ was underrated by fans here, but I prefer Kelly because I think he gives your team more energy, defense and rebounding.

The change of tune about TJ on this board is telling. They hated him while he was here, and now they love him. I vacillate about the direction of the team quite a bit, but much less so when it comes to players - especially after you've watched them for five years, as we had with TJ.

TJ was underrated around the league. Kelly has been solid this year, and like you said, gives your team more energy. That is probably because he plays with more emotion.

I think most people here are just upset we traded a decent player for cash. What worries me is the same thing that happened to TJ seems to be happening to Oubre. The fans are including him in trades, and people want to move him to the bench. He has been a solid starter. We just need better bench guys. Honestly, we should have drafted Culver and kept Bender. Or made a different trade to move back for a guard and drafted Clarke.

But we are where we are.

It's easy to talk about how depleted your bench is when three of your top four backups are out. We wouldn't be talking about Culver or Bender if Cam and Kaminsky were playing. I'd still be talking about trading Baynes if he were playing.

I really thought Tyler Johnson would play better this season, based on how well he played last season down the stretch before his injury. The fact that none of Tyler Johnson, Ty Jerome or Jevon Carter have shown themselves worthy of NBA minutes has been a real killer for us this season. Diallo stepping up would have been nice, too, but also hasn't happened (not on the defensive end, at least, where it really matters).

But none of that is an argument for why Oubre should not go to the bench. And no one here has been talking about dealing him for cash considerations. Some idiots like myself have suggested the possibility of trading him for Lauri Markkanen, which just goes to show you what high esteem we hold him in. We want him to go the bench for the sake of the team, in order to strengthen the bench.

[bwgood77]

We're way down in the depths.Grime at the bottom of the garbage can.To the point we cling to/lament over decent 6th man players like TJ Warren & Kelly Oubre.Personally, I think TJ's slightly better.TJ's a black hole on offense, but Kelly's pure chaos.

I always thought TJ was underrated by fans here, but I prefer Kelly because I think he gives your team more energy, defense and rebounding.

The change of tune about TJ on this board is telling. They hated him while he was here, and now they love him. I vacillate about the direction of the team quite a bit, but much less so when it comes to players - especially after you've watched them for five years, as we had with TJ.

Most liked Oubre better, but some preferred TJ. Many hated him, and on twitter, the more casual fans did listening to Sidery who talks better about those who give interviews over those more private, but TJ was the better player last year anyway. Oubre's D is just highlight gambling stuff. Even TJ rated higher on D last year...by quite a bit, and probably quite a bit better this year, just by sticking to his many and playing more team D. Heck, Indy put him on Butler.

[bwgood77]

We're way down in the depths.Grime at the bottom of the garbage can.To the point we cling to/lament over decent 6th man players like TJ Warren & Kelly Oubre.Personally, I think TJ's slightly better.TJ's a black hole on offense, but Kelly's pure chaos.

I think calling TJ a black hole was disingenuos. He never really dribbled all the way down the floor and didn't let anyone touch it unless an easy fast break after a steal with one or no guys in front of him. He did occasionally drive into a couple of defenders, but that was typically because he was the last outlet and given it to score with little time left on the clock. Oubre will dribble it all the way down the court and drive into multiple defenders with plenty of time on the shot clock while others wonder why we are not running our offense....no .5 there.

[lilfishi22]

Saric is so bad that I kinda wish we kept Ariza. I am not sure what Saric adds besides some fancy passes every other games. It's practically playing 5 on 4 ever single time. Too slow against more athletic PF. Too weak against bigger PF. No rebounding. No weakside protection. No shooting. What an awful acquisition.

Rubio-Saric-Oubres just doesn't work. Awful spacing and below average defense. One of these guys absolutely needed to be replaced by some fresh talents.

Saric could be even worse and I still wouldn't want Ariza back

The dude packed it in less than a month into the season after (getting paid &) realising we were worse than he expected. At least Saric still plays like he cares and with effort.

[lilfishi22]

I still couldn't care less about TJ and the fact that he offers nothing but occasional games where he's streaky hot. His game still doesn't provide anything else.

What I am pissed about are the Suns not showing up when someone like this comes to town - especially Oubre. Last night was a personal challenge to hold serv and he flopped. I was even more irate watching Sabonis eat Ayton's lunch. Given the disparity in talent level that should NEVER happen.

Occasional games? He's more consistent than most players we have. And if you think he was good as a cutter and finisher, imagine him next to Rubio. He'd be an easy and efficient 20ppg scorer for us.

[lilfishi22]

We're way down in the depths.Grime at the bottom of the garbage can.To the point we cling to/lament over decent 6th man players like TJ Warren & Kelly Oubre.Personally, I think TJ's slightly better.TJ's a black hole on offense, but Kelly's pure chaos.

I think calling TJ a black hole was disingenuos. He never really dribbled all the way down the floor and didn't let anyone touch it unless an easy fast break after a steal with one or no guys in front of him. He did occasionally drive into a couple of defenders, but that was typically because he was the last outlet and given it to score with little time left on the clock. Oubre will dribble it all the way down the court and drive into multiple defenders with plenty of time on the shot clock while others wonder why we are not running our offense....no .5 there.

TJ was also a significantly better and more efficient finisher near the rim. Yeah he doesn't get those sweet highlight dunks that Oubre gets but TJ was an overall more productive at getting points in the paint. So even if we compare their sometimes similar style of barreling into defenders, he still finished better than Oubre.

The only thing I think Oubre does better is defense when he's absolutely locked in and disciplined and his energy which I do think is infectious. But TJ to me is just a better basketball player. He plays better in a system, he's more fundamentally sound and the guy just seems way more focused on basketball than any other interest he has outside of that.

[LesGrossman]

It was a painful game to watch for sure. There was zero chance to win, which in all honesty hasnt often been the case. But if you ever played yourself you know these days when nothing falls. Cant do anything about that, should not take it too hard - no need to question the overall big picture.

To be honest i was a bit encouraged, because even though the game over all went bad, and Booker, Rubio and Oubre had really poor outings, the offense looked a bit more disciplined from Bookers and the teams' side. I hope we are seeing small adjustments in the right direction. Especially Ayton continues to develop right before our eyes. Some guys here seem to expect him to be a finished product. In my opinion he is already ahead of schedule. Give him this and the next season and let him be healthy, and there'll be a monster on the team. And its just plain stupid to expect that just because he made a mistake with those drugs he somehow "makes up for it" by supernatural development speed. GET THE HELL OVER IT. Theres no use continuing to beat that dead horse. Yes it was a mistake. Yes it hurt the suns season. Nothing he or we can do about it now, and i dont see anything in him right now that wouldnt say he wants to be great, and a great team guy.

Three things worry me the most and that is Oubre's apparent mindlessness - he doesnt really understand or learn or improve on offense and continues to be a ball stopper who makes bad decisions - and Bookers pretty obvious attempt to campaign for all star, where he puts his personal interests above the team. I first thought its overinterpretation but when he is out there padding stats in a game that has been decided long ago, and at the same time not excerting any energy on D in the early stages of the game, somethings fundamentally wrong. It was amost like a switch flipped from team offense, playing within his role, to dominating the ball and hijacking the offense, making the other people just watch him dribble for 22 seconds and then try to hero ball the team back in to the game. People asked "how would be play without him?" jokingly but when i see him play like that, and in contrast the beautiful, effective quick team offense that Bridges, Rubio, Ayton and Saric run, i start to believe that this version of Booker does more damage than good. He has proven to not lead his team to wins, and now he reinforces that by taking everyone else who could have a positive impact out of the game. Monty on the other hand seems to have a multi class locker room where he screams at the easiest target, like our scrub PG's, and doesnt look Booker in the eye and tells him to fkn share the ball.

[RunDogGun]

It was a painful game to watch for sure. There was zero chance to win, which in all honesty hasnt often been the case. But if you ever played yourself you know these days when nothing falls. Cant do anything about that, should not take it too hard - no need to question the overall big picture.

To be honest i was a bit encouraged, because even though the game over all went bad, and Booker, Rubio and Oubre had really poor outings, the offense looked a bit more disciplined from Bookers and the teams' side. I hope we are seeing small adjustments in the right direction. Especially Ayton continues to develop right before our eyes. Some guys here seem to expect him to be a finished product. In my opinion he is already ahead of schedule. Give him this and the next season and let him be healthy, and there'll be a monster on the team. And its just plain stupid to expect that just because he made a mistake with those drugs he somehow "makes up for it" by supernatural development speed. GET THE HELL OVER IT. Theres no use continuing to beat that dead horse. Yes it was a mistake. Yes it hurt the suns season. Nothing he or we can do about it now, and i dont see anything in him right now that wouldnt say he wants to be great, and a great team guy.

Three things worry me the most and that is Oubre's apparent mindlessness - he doesnt really understand or learn or improve on offense and continues to be a ball stopper who makes bad decisions - and Bookers pretty obvious attempt to campaign for all star, where he puts his personal interests above the team. I first thought its overinterpretation but when he is out there padding stats in a game that has been decided long ago, and at the same time not excerting any energy on D in the early stages of the game, somethings fundamentally wrong. It was amost like a switch flipped from team offense, playing within his role, to dominating the ball and hijacking the offense, making the other people just watch him dribble for 22 seconds and then try to hero ball the team back in to the game. People asked "how would be play without him?" jokingly but when i see him play like that, and in contrast the beautiful, effective quick team offense that Bridges, Rubio, Ayton and Saric run, i start to believe that this version of Booker does more damage than good. He has proven to not lead his team to wins, and now he reinforces that by taking everyone else who could have a positive impact out of the game. Monty on the other hand seems to have a multi class locker room where he screams at the easiest target, like our scrub PG's, and doesnt look Booker in the eye and tells him to fkn share the ball.

Well we were in the game in the first half. When we went to the lineup of Rubio, Booker, Bridges, Oubre, and Ayton, we got really close. Even when we subbed Okobo into that lineup, and later Saric for Ayton, we were in the game. When shots aren't falling, you take it to the hoop. We have a guys that can do that. We should have used Daillo more in that game.

[enigmatics]

I still couldn't care less about TJ and the fact that he offers nothing but occasional games where he's streaky hot. His game still doesn't provide anything else.

What I am pissed about are the Suns not showing up when someone like this comes to town - especially Oubre. Last night was a personal challenge to hold serv and he flopped. I was even more irate watching Sabonis eat Ayton's lunch. Given the disparity in talent level that should NEVER happen.

Occasional games? He's more consistent than most players we have. And if you think he was good as a cutter and finisher, imagine him next to Rubio. He'd be an easy and efficient 20ppg scorer for us.

As always, TJ typically gives up enough to the opposing scorer that it often negates much of what he does himself on offense. Therefore he needs a team that plays high level defense to truly be effective.

[Revived]

The only thing I didn’t like about Warren was his durability. He missed a minimum of 16 games at the very least every season when he was here. Lot more in some seasons.

And the injuries were always very vague with Warren as well as if they hiding something.

Durability is the most important attribute of any athlete and Warren lacked that when he was here. Of course he’s turned into some iron man for the Pacers this year.