For us to be the best team we can be, does Hayward need to be more aggressive with his offense (have a higher Usage)? Or if all 4 guys are playing, is it okay for him to just be the "fill-in" guy? Is he coasting when he plays with those guys?
I've said for a little while now this team is best when one of the wings are out.
For us to be the best team we can be, does Hayward need to be more aggressive with his offense (have a higher Usage)? Or if all 4 guys are playing, is it okay for him to just be the "fill-in" guy? Is he coasting when he plays with those guys?
I've said for a little while now this team is best when one of the wings are out.
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I disagree strongly. This team is best when all 3 wings are healthy, engaged, moving the ball, and locked in on D. That sample size is small, but I think our ceiling is clearly the highest when this is the case.
KGboss wrote:Brown doesnt need you to clean his jock strap for him
Captain_Caveman wrote:You are perfectly welcome to never read or respond to my posts ever again. I don't find you particularly knowledgeable or insightful from anything I have read to date.
I think we will see higher usage for Gordon in the post season.
For the greater good of his franchise Tatum and Brown are getting higher usage in reg. That helps with their development and its key going forward. When wins matter most they can take a small step back and return the mantle to the man who can theoretically help more in a win now situation.
If this is the plan then good job from everyone delivering it and kudos to Gordon that really accepts this as a reality. This post season is also his ticket for a big contract. Doing well will mean a rather lucrative offer. Being mediocre might mean one from a crap team.
Hayward's has just played three really nice games in a row. Barring a trades or serious injuries, I think the success of this season will be determined by Hayward's play. If he can Hawyard keep playing at this level, like he did before the hand injury, there's going to be to a lot good Celtic basketball after the all star break and into the playoffs
Theocy wrote:I think we will see higher usage for Gordon in the post season.
For the greater good of his franchise Tatum and Brown are getting higher usage in reg. That helps with their development and its key going forward. When wins matter most they can take a small step back and return the mantle to the man who can theoretically help more in a win now situation.
If this is the plan then good job from everyone delivering it and kudos to Gordon that really accepts this as a reality. This post season is also his ticket for a big contract. Doing well will mean a rather lucrative offer. Being mediocre might mean one from a crap team.
He's going to get lucrative offers from a lot of teams, regardless. He's the kind of player that makes any team in the league better if you put him on it as he does everything well while having a high BBIQ. He also has a game that will just age well. When a bum like Barnes is making what he's making, it's pretty much a given Hayward will get good offers. It's hard to see him being offered less than 100/4.
Cave, Assuming Gordon performs as he has been of late for the rest of this regular season & the POs, & assuming no new injury set backs, and then he opts out, are we going to pay him? Should we?
SamIam 2010: Truth's ability to play so incredibly efficiently is so UNDERAPPRECIATED. Bballcool 2012: Amazing how great Pierce has been for so long. Continues to defy age! KG 2013: P is original Celtic. Wherever he goes, we go. This is The Truth's house.
Add the last two games to the list: @NOP: 23p, 6r, 2a @MIA: 29p, 9r, 2a
He should at least surpass Brown in usage. But at this point, he's better at making decisions with the ball than all of his teammates tbh. Even Grampa Gordon game like tonight is effective, efficient, and impactful.
The thing that troubles me is that, save for the four bolded games, all of these games came against poor defensive/sub .500 teams.
Too often, Hayward gets passive when a good defensive team shuts down his dribble penetration. I believe your are asserting that correlation = causation here while its more of a case of his usage being up in these instances because his dribble penetration game isn't being shut down. He also benefits in the same way Jaylen does, where teams worry about stopping Tatum and Kemba first and provide less defensive attention on him.
He can be a very good player, theres no denying that so please dont take this the wrong way.
Add the last two games to the list: @NOP: 23p, 6r, 2a @MIA: 29p, 9r, 2a
He should at least surpass Brown in usage. But at this point, he's better at making decisions with the ball than all of his teammates tbh. Even Grampa Gordon game like tonight is effective, efficient, and impactful.
The thing that troubles me is that, save for the four bolded games, all of these games came against poor defensive/sub .500 teams.
Too often, Hayward gets passive when a good defensive team shuts down his dribble penetration. I believe your are asserting that correlation = causation here while its more of a case of his usage being up in these instances because his dribble penetration game isn't being shut down. He also benefits in the same way Jaylen does, where teams worry about stopping Tatum and Kemba first and provide less defensive attention on him.
He can be a very good player, theres no denying that so please dont take this the wrong way.
There are so many factors why his usage is down in any particular game: • Injuries, foot not feeling particularly well that night (see his splits on B2Bs compared to when he has rest -- they should have load-managed him). • Coach's decision -- if Kemba and all three wings are playing, it's nearly impossible to feature all four on the same night. One or two have to make sacrifices in terms of scoring and having plays set up for them. • Lack of aggression or overpassing or deferring too much, as most of fans constantly point out* • The amount of defense and attention he is getting on a particular night/half/possessions • FO's decision -- they really are featuring the Jays more this season and want to fast-track their development • teammates hunting for their own shots or not hitting him on open spots; not enough ball movement
*I think people view this from a different lens. Some see it as lack of confidence/aggression while some of us (maybe Stevens too) see it as not forcing the issue and making the right play based on what the defense is giving him.
EDIT: What I meant to point out in my original post was this -- when Hayward's usage is up, his offensive production goes up with it. (This is not really the case for the other three.)
Add the last two games to the list: @NOP: 23p, 6r, 2a @MIA: 29p, 9r, 2a
He should at least surpass Brown in usage. But at this point, he's better at making decisions with the ball than all of his teammates tbh. Even Grampa Gordon game like tonight is effective, efficient, and impactful.
The thing that troubles me is that, save for the four bolded games, all of these games came against poor defensive/sub .500 teams.
Too often, Hayward gets passive when a good defensive team shuts down his dribble penetration. I believe your are asserting that correlation = causation here while its more of a case of his usage being up in these instances because his dribble penetration game isn't being shut down. He also benefits in the same way Jaylen does, where teams worry about stopping Tatum and Kemba first and provide less defensive attention on him.
He can be a very good player, theres no denying that so please dont take this the wrong way.
I think that is a fair assessment. Id just add that it seems that brads gameplan frequently emphasizes attacking matchups. I think gordos best attributes, as it pertains to this team, are smart reads, making the extra pass, and when locked in/healthy, being a strong team defender
But some matchups demand that gordo take advantage, and he wisely exploits those.
So maybe gordos role is to make smart plays, keep the ball moving, and take a backseat to a trio that wants scoring opportunities. that makes him look passive, as opposed to when the gameplan calls for attack mode.
Im still not sure how healthy he is or what his new ceiling is, but i do think that he is a huge part of whatever this team at its hypothetical peak could be.
This team, in the limited sample size we’ve seen, shows that we COULD potentially make noise when our best players seem healthy, well-rested, engaged and unselfish.
That may be wishful thinking tbh, but those flashes sure are fun to watch
KGboss wrote:Brown doesnt need you to clean his jock strap for him
Captain_Caveman wrote:You are perfectly welcome to never read or respond to my posts ever again. I don't find you particularly knowledgeable or insightful from anything I have read to date.
zoyathedestroya wrote: Add the last two games to the list: @NOP: 23p, 6r, 2a @MIA: 29p, 9r, 2a
He should at least surpass Brown in usage. But at this point, he's better at making decisions with the ball than all of his teammates tbh. Even Grampa Gordon game like tonight is effective, efficient, and impactful.
The thing that troubles me is that, save for the four bolded games, all of these games came against poor defensive/sub .500 teams.
Too often, Hayward gets passive when a good defensive team shuts down his dribble penetration. I believe your are asserting that correlation = causation here while its more of a case of his usage being up in these instances because his dribble penetration game isn't being shut down. He also benefits in the same way Jaylen does, where teams worry about stopping Tatum and Kemba first and provide less defensive attention on him.
He can be a very good player, theres no denying that so please dont take this the wrong way.
There are so many factors why his usage is down in any particular game: • Injuries, foot not feeling particularly well that night (see his splits on B2Bs compared to when he has rest -- they should have load-managed him). • Coach's decision -- if Kemba and all three wings are playing, it's nearly impossible to feature all four on the same night. One or two have to make sacrifices in terms of scoring and having plays set up for them. • Lack of aggression or overpassing or deferring too much, as most of fans constantly point out* • The amount of defense and attention he is getting on a particular night/half/possessions • FO's decision -- they really are featuring the Jays more this season and want to fast-track their development • teammates hunting for their own shots or not hitting him on open spots; not enough ball movement
*I think people view this from a different lens. Some see it as lack of confidence/aggression while some of us (maybe Stevens too) see it as not forcing the issue and making the right play based on what the defense is giving him.
EDIT: What I meant to point out in my particular post was this -- when Hayward's usage is up, his offensive production goes up with it. (This is not really the case for the other three.)
To me, its aggression, which I feel is measurable by Free Throws.
His FTr [.176 including the 10 from last night] has been disappointing. He’s attempted over 4 FTs only 4 times this season. He’s a guy that averaged 6 a game for the 3 years preceding his move to Boston [a .4 FTr]. The decline isnt just his injury, either, as last year he had a .3 FTr last year.
To be the team that we want to be [and for Gordon to be the player that many here see him as] he needs to step up the aggression.
I’d rather pay the extra per year on less years- especially given his age. Obviously I’d rather pay less if possible but I’m not gonna let a new contract fall apart on 5 mill annually especially given we really don’t have too much negotiating room if he is considering leaving
the 5 million per extra is gonna be the deal breaker?
Yes. Lol I feel like Cave with Jaylen here, but it absolutely matters when your talking about a 3rd or 4th option. Especially with the escalating nature.
Said another way, if we could tack on a season of 1/10 onto the end of the 3/90, I’d be all for it.
SmartWentCrazy wrote: Yah, I’m a no go on 3/90. Could live with 4/100.
the 5 million per extra is gonna be the deal breaker?
Yes. Lol I feel like Cave with Jaylen here, but it absolutely matters when your talking about a 3rd or 4th option. Especially with the escalating nature.
Said another way, if we could tack on a season of 1/10 onto the end of the 3/90, I’d be all for it.
What’s the alternative tho? using the jaylen brown parallels here
I said this last night but sometimes I see people saying we need to trade Hayward because he’s taking shots and looks away from brown and Tatum. Then in the next breathe they simultaneously say he needs to be more aggressive- how can he be both?
it’s a give and take and he needs to pick his spots but as we’ve seen when one is out and Hayward’s playing he has been more aggressive but when all our wings are healthy he does take a back seat and typically makes the right play.
If brown is who many here think he is shouldn’t we want brown taking more shots than Hayward? Shouldn’t he flourish with Hayward in the court? same could be said for Tatum also but I can’t see how people want him to be both passive and playmaker and more aggressive at the same time
MagicBagley18 wrote:I said this last night but sometimes I see people saying we need to trade Hayward because he’s taking shots and looks away from brown and Tatum. Then in the next breathe they simultaneously say he needs to be more aggressive- how can he be both?
it’s a give and take and he needs to pick his spots but as we’ve seen when one is out and Hayward’s playing he has been more aggressive but when all our wings are healthy he does take a back seat and typically makes the right play.
If brown is who many here think he is shouldn’t we want brown taking more shots than Hayward? Shouldn’t he flourish with Hayward in the court? same could be said for Tatum also but I can’t see how people want him to be both passive and playmaker and more aggressive at the same time
I dont think they need to trade Hayward for the ‘taking shots’ purposes.
I just dont see a realistic path right now for us to be title contenders while he’s on the team. I think were real long shots to win a title in the next 5 years and personally feel that their best shot is having both Smart follow Lowry’s development curve and becoming an all-nba guard [I still think this is absolutely possible] and Brown and Tatum to continue to growing through forced reps.
Im not opposed to re-signing Hayward, I just want to see a plan with him that has us as title contenders with two key players on the wrong side of 30 [no, run it back isnt a plan]. Hell, its one of the reasons I float the Brown/Smart for KAT trade every couple of weeks— its one of the few [unlikely] paths that give us a shot IMO.
