Is Zach LaVine a Winner?

[bullsnewdynasty]

seriously, middleton just freaking put up 50 as the #1 option w/ giannis out. he's averaging 25 points per 36 on 62% ts. 2:1 assist to turnover ratio. that's world class offense from a wing and significantly better than lavine's numbers. our offense would most certainly not be much worse. it would most certainly not be worse. if anything, it would probably be better

Uh, putting up stats against a historically awful Wizards team is what you’re pointing to? I mean honesty, great individual game but it means nothing.

I’ll put up any of LaVine’s stat lines against Charlotte and the Cavs if I knew you wouldn’t find a way to discredit them.

Again, Middleton was nothing before Giannis got there, the guy has a **** 16 PER for his career and not a defender either. Give LaVine Milwaukee’s roster and he is starting in the ASG easily.

[dice]

seriously, middleton just freaking put up 50 as the #1 option w/ giannis out. he's averaging 25 points per 36 on 62% ts. 2:1 assist to turnover ratio. that's world class offense from a wing and significantly better than lavine's numbers. our offense would most certainly not be much worse. it would most certainly not be worse. if anything, it would probably be better

Uh, putting up stats against a historically awful Wizards team is what you’re pointing to? I mean honesty, great individual game but it means nothing.

it means that he can thrive w/ giannis out of the lineup. without practice being "the man". it means that he's not just cashing in on being 2nd option to a superstar

I’ll put up any of LaVine’s stat lines against Charlotte and the Cavs if I knew you wouldn’t find a way to discredit them.

you JUST said that great individual games mean nothing. and no, i don't discredit lavine's great games. there's good reason he's been in the conversation for all-star this season. but this conversation is about whether our offense would be "much worse" w/ middleton. which is flatly false

Again, Middleton was nothing before Giannis got there

middleton was a rookie 2nd round draft pick before giannis got there. ridiculous argument. guess who was one of the worst players in the league his first couple of seasons? that's right, zach lavine

the guy has a **** 16 PER for his career and not a defender either.

PER is a **** stat. and this conversation was about offense. trying to changing the subject doesn't bode well for your argument. particularly when you lose on the new argument as well. because middleton is a pretty good defender. lavine, while much improved, is certainly not

Give LaVine Milwaukee’s roster and he is starting in the ASG easily.

he's STARTING in the all-star game? EASILY? what kind of a fantasy world are you living in?

[Ice Man]

I don't know how anybody could make the case that Zach deserves to be an All Star after last night's game. It was Zach's career, in a nutshell. His tough, hard-nosed teammate goes down early in the game, Zach is asked to step it up, to lead the team in this teammate's absence, and ... Zach disappears. Not entirely coincidentally, his team gets torched.

Zach is a great beta for a team that has a couple of alphas. In that situation, he absolutely would be a winner. But don't expect him to lead the way.

[imagge]

I don't know how anybody could make the case that Zach deserves to be an All Star after last night's game. It was Zach's career, in a nutshell. His tough, hard-nosed teammate goes down early in the game, Zach is asked to step it up, to lead the team in this teammate's absence, and ... Zach disappears. Not entirely coincidentally, his team gets torched.

Zach is a great beta for a team that has a couple of alphas. In that situation, he absolutely would be a winner. But don't expect him to lead the way.

So 22 and 9 Asts is disappearing? Re watch the game last night and you will see players trying to do to much...he only got 17 shots while dishing 9 dimes....he got less shots because his teammates tried to step out of their comfort zone and the Bulls went down by 21....it was his 12 points in the 3rd qtr that got them back in the game...please stop the hate dude has flat out balled this year

[Red Larrivee]

I don't know how anybody could make the case that Zach deserves to be an All Star after last night's game. It was Zach's career, in a nutshell. His tough, hard-nosed teammate goes down early in the game, Zach is asked to step it up, to lead the team in this teammate's absence, and ... Zach disappears. Not entirely coincidentally, his team gets torched.

Zach is a great beta for a team that has a couple of alphas. In that situation, he absolutely would be a winner. But don't expect him to lead the way.

To be fair, it's asking the world of any player to lift the current roster and coaching to wins, especially when Kyrie is playing at a HOF level. This team needed Zach to score 44 to beat the Cavs.

If you could land a player that is vastly better than LaVine, then you'd have a pretty good team. Finding that player isn't easy though.

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[RedBulls23]

This thread just show how some posters are basketball illiterates.
Middleton is having a 50/40/90 on a team that is about to win 70 games. How does he not deserve a spot?

Middleton has been damn good this year. Arguably top 20 player good.

People can't get past ppg when evaluating players.

[Ice Man]

So 22 and 9 Asts is disappearing?

Zach was assigned to slow Kyrie. He failed at that task miserably. Zach is an excellent offensive player. But there are other aspects to winning games than scoring points, or even getting assists, and he's not very good at those other things.

[Ice Man]

This team needed Zach to score 44 to beat the Cavs.

This team needed Zach, or somebody else in Dunn's absence, to get in Kyrie's face. And Dinwiddie's. We wouldn't have won anyway, because Kyrie was in GOAT mode, but at least the Bulls would have fought. Dunn brings that to the team, every night. We missed his leadership sorely.

[RedBulls23]

Zach's first 16 games: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lavinza01/gamelog/2020#294-309-sum:pgl_basic

Zach since the 49 point game against Charlotte: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lavinza01/gamelog/2020#310-344-sum:pgl_basic

I think it can be argued that the first 16 games cost Zach an allstar bid.

[dice]

So 22 and 9 Asts is disappearing?

Zach was assigned to slow Kyrie.

i haven't been watching much of the bulls this season, but wow, maybe all the criticism of boylen is appropriate

[dice]

Zach's first 16 games: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lavinza01/gamelog/2020#294-309-sum:pgl_basic

Zach since the 49 point game against Charlotte: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lavinza01/gamelog/2020#310-344-sum:pgl_basic

I think it can be argued that the first 16 games cost Zach an allstar bid.

it could also be argued that the soft schedule almost got him an allstar bid

[imagge]

So 22 and 9 Asts is disappearing?

Zach was assigned to slow Kyrie. He failed at that task miserably. Zach is an excellent offensive player. But there are other aspects to winning games than scoring points, or even getting assists, and he's not very good at those other things.

Got news for you no one was going to slow down Kyrie last night and he switched on to him well after he had it going...he has been prettty good defensively while carrying the full offensive load....All the numbers defensively says he is geatly improves so what other things do you speak of....please give facts not opinions

[imagge]

Zach is top 25 in steals per game and since NBA players don’t simply pick the pockets of other NBA players most steals come from help defense .....Zack biggest problem defensively....his on ball defense has actually been good throughout his career

[MeloRoseNoah]

I don't know how anybody could make the case that Zach deserves to be an All Star after last night's game. It was Zach's career, in a nutshell. His tough, hard-nosed teammate goes down early in the game, Zach is asked to step it up, to lead the team in this teammate's absence, and ... Zach disappears. Not entirely coincidentally, his team gets torched.

Zach is a great beta for a team that has a couple of alphas. In that situation, he absolutely would be a winner. But don't expect him to lead the way.

There’s nothing wrong with this statement. Lavine as a true Alpha 1 at his current stage will be the head of a lottery team for every season. At his current production, he’s an ok 2nd option for a playoff team and a fantastic 3rd option on a championship contending team.

The problem is that outside of Lavine the roster is filled with D League scrubs. There is only one legit starter on this team outside of Lavine and it’s WCJ. Hopefully, WCJ will make the next leap. Hutchison is also rounding up to be a good 18-24 mins role player on a championship contending team Ariza style.

We really need 1-2 excellent players but it really depends on luck to get those types of players.

[Ice Man]

So 22 and 9 Asts is disappearing?

Zach was assigned to slow Kyrie.

i haven't been watching much of the bulls this season, but wow, maybe all the criticism of boylen is appropriate

Who else without Dunn? We tried Shaq a bit but he was lost on offense, and we had to score to catch up.

[dice]

Zach was assigned to slow Kyrie.

i haven't been watching much of the bulls this season, but wow, maybe all the criticism of boylen is appropriate

Who else without Dunn? We tried Shaq a bit but he was lost on offense, and we had to score to catch up.

if you've gotta score to catch up, tiring out zach on defense in a total mismatch ain't the best strategy. and you don't need whoever is guarding kyrie to be scoring as well. that said, shaq scored 12 points in 10 minutes, so i'm not sure how lost he was. arci, shaq and sato are all capable defenders. throw them all at kyrie and hope he cools off

[Ice Man]

Shaq must have got his points when I raided the fridge. So scratch my comment.

[erlim]

I think his drive is legitimately there. I was watching the run with us videos from this season, and I really think the bulls could have used Luol. With OP’s mysterious sustaining injury we would have have had a high IQ player to play some minutes, more importantly, I feel like he could have given a lot of help to guys like Zach and Lauri, understanding their tools and how to develop them. Boylen gives as much practical guidance within the basketball world as Panda Express fortune cookie.

[bullsnewdynasty]

it means that he can thrive w/ giannis out of the lineup. without practice being "the man". it means that he's not just cashing in on being 2nd option to a superstar

The Wizards are the worst defensive team in the NBA.

you JUST said that great individual games mean nothing. and no, i don't discredit lavine's great games. there's good reason he's been in the conversation for all-star this season. but this conversation is about whether our offense would be "much worse" w/ middleton. which is flatly false

Because Middleton can't create his own shot, while he doesn't need to in Milwaukee. He's never had to carry an offense and plays with an MVP.

middleton was a rookie 2nd round draft pick before giannis got there. ridiculous argument. guess who was one of the worst players in the league his first couple of seasons? that's right, zach lavine

It's not hard to figure out that Middleton finally became an all-star in his 8th year when he got to play with an MVP. Although I'm sure that's just a coincidence and had nothing to do with Giannis.

PER is a **** stat. and this conversation was about offense. trying to changing the subject doesn't bode well for your argument. particularly when you lose on the new argument as well. because middleton is a pretty good defender. lavine, while much improved, is certainly not

PER is a bad stat when it doesn't favor your argument. Middleton is not a "pretty good" defender either, no evidence to support.

he's STARTING in the all-star game? EASILY? what kind of a fantasy world are you living in?

Zach has never had close to the level of help that Middleton has, yet he's viewed as some kind of empty stats guy despite averaging 25 PPG which VERY FEW players do.

[E-DC]

Zach has never had close to the level of help that Middleton has, yet he's viewed as some kind of empty stats guy despite averaging 25 PPG which VERY FEW players do.

The empty stats narrative largely comes from Lavine's poor advance stats. For the year Lavine has an ORTG to DRTG of 107 to 109. That is typically a red flag for empty stats.

During the 17 game stretch from the start of December to Carter getting injured in the Dallas game, Markkanen's ORTG to DRTG was 120 to 108, Carter's was 109 to 104, and Satoransky's was 113 to 108. The players around Lavine were playing very good basketball, but still Lavine's rating was 105 to 107.

Zach Lavine is averaging 25 ppg and has a usage rate of over 30%, yet in 45% of his games played he has had an ORTG of under 100. In 25% of his games played he has had an ORTG of under 90.

As for Middleton's advance stats, his ORTG to DRTG for the year is 121 to 104 and his WS/48 is .225. Those are excellent numbers, no matter what way you cut it.