If LeBron James & KD never became ring chasers, where would they be in all-time list?

Drygon · Post #1 » by **Drygon** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 2:49 am

Obviously, they're both exceptional players in their own rights.

In term of legacy... LeBron is a top 5 player of all-time while KD is top 15 due to how they stacked the deck in their favor by joining Miami Heat & Golden State Warriors respectively to win Finals MVPs & Championships.

Now do you think their place in all-time raking would've looked different if they never ring chased?

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Here's my own thoughts.

LeBron James: Would be arguably in conversation as a top 10 player (alongside with Kobe) even if he only won just 1 Championship with Cleveland Cavaliers. His career resume & accomplishments is ridiculously impressive. But LeBron wouldn't be anywhere close in GOAT debate without those 2 rings he got in Miami Heat.

Kevin Durant: He would be rated significantly much lower if KD never got his rings at GSW as the 1st option. They are many all-time greats (Chris Paul, Nash, Karl Malone, Barkley etc.) who are better players than KD. But since they're ringless, people are causally putting KD's name higher than them.

Many people are saying KD is the best "pure scorer" in his era. Which makes absolutely no sense. Over the past 2 seasons, James Harden has been objectively a far superior better scorer than any version of KD. Never mind that Harden is a better overall offensive player due to being elite as a playmaker & shooter. But since KD won rings + Finals MVPs, people are unwilling to accept Harden as the better scorer.

If KD never got Finals MVPs + rings, he would never be even be considered as a top 3 player of 2010s when you've guys like LeBron, Curry, Harden and even Kawhi Leonard. All of these guys are much better all-around players than KD.

Clay Davis · Post #2 » by **Clay Davis** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 2:52 am

About where they are since rings are largely an accomplishment of management

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Drygon · Post #3 » by **Drygon** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 2:54 am

Clay Davis wrote:About where they are since rings are largely an accomplishment of management

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Winning rings as the 1st option absolutely matters for someone's legacy, let's not pretend otherwise. Every player who're top 10 players in NBA history have won multiple rings as 'The Man' for their team.

lakerz12 · Post #4 » by **lakerz12** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 2:54 am

Clay Davis wrote:About where they are since rings are largely an accomplishment of management

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So was it management that got LeBron to the Finals' 9 times so far?

Or just management's fault that he lost 6 of them?

BigDocta898 · Post #5 » by **BigDocta898** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 2:55 am

I think the same as they are now

Lebron would still be seen as top 3 ever.

Kd however would of got much more acclaim if he just won 1 with OKC no one even cares that he won with the warriors he thought he was getting passed the crown when he won but everyone knows those chips are cheap

iggymcfrack · Post #6 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 2:58 am

No one in NBA history has ever spent their whole career with a front office as poor as what LeBron had in Cleveland. Oscar, KG, T-Mac, every one of them got out eventually. Hell Kobe started requesting a trade after 3 years with those kind of teammates. It’s ridiculous to describe LeBron leaving that sinkhole as “ring chasing”. It’s nothing like KD leaving a team that was up 3-1 on the conference finals to join a team that won 73 games.

As for where they’d be ranked, I feel like LeBron would still be the GOAT but I had him #2 before he even went to Miami based largely on his all-time dominant playoffs in 2009, so i judge a little differently than most. KD I have top-30 right now. If he won a ring in OKC, he’d probably be in the 20-25 range. If he didn’t win one there I feel like he’d be the same.

picko · Post #7 » by **picko** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:02 am

LeBron never became a ring chaser. He desired to control his own destiny. And left a poorly run franchise.

A ring chaser is inevitably a role player on a team of more capable players. LeBron was the league's best player before and after his Miami tenure.

Raps in 4 · Post #8 » by **Raps in 4** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:02 am

Basketball fans put too much emphasis on team accolades, leading to guys ring chasing.

thebigbird · Post #9 » by **thebigbird** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:04 am

Lebron wasn't a ring chaser. He left Cleveland for a team that lost in the first round the year before. When you spend 7 years in Cleveland and the best your front office does for you is Mo Williams you'd leave too.

VanWest82 · Post #10 » by **VanWest82** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:04 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Clay Davis wrote:About where they are since rings are largely an accomplishment of management

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So was it management that got LeBron to the Finals' 9 times so far?

Or just management's fault that he lost 6 of them?

I think it's pretty clear at this point that for better and worse Lebron needs to be considered part of his teams' management.

Drygon · Post #11 » by **Drygon** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:06 am

picko wrote:LeBron never became a ring chaser. He desired to control his own destiny. And left a poorly run franchise.

A ring chaser is inevitably a role player on a team of more capable players. LeBron was the league's best player before and after his Miami tenure.

thebigbird wrote:Lebron wasn't a ring chaser. He left Cleveland for a team that lost in the first round the year before. When you spend 7 years in Cleveland and the best your front office does for you is Mo Williams you'd leave too.

LeBron James: Not 1, not 2, not 3....

I mean, KD took it on a new level. But let’s not get revisionist with the Heatles.

LeBron set a precedent for guys like KD to join a team with 2+ All-Stars to get "easy" rings.

Watch on YouTube

Dupp · Post #12 » by **Dupp** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:08 am

Lebron maybe slightly lower and KD about the same, possibly higher.

Statlanta · Post #13 » by **Statlanta** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:11 am

LeBron would be around 5-15, instead of a GOAT candidate.

Durant would be unchanged, around 20-25.

Johnny Bball · Post #14 » by **Johnny Bball** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:16 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Clay Davis wrote:About where they are since rings are largely an accomplishment of management

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So was it management that got LeBron to the Finals' 9 times so far?

Or just management's fault that he lost 6 of them?

When you burn through a franchise picks and youth and leave in 4 years and they are all used up and spent, and do it a few times, I don't know how that's not attributable to management in some kind of significant part.

Clay Davis · Post #15 » by **Clay Davis** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:17 am

lakerz12 wrote:
Clay Davis wrote:About where they are since rings are largely an accomplishment of management

Sent from my SM-A520W using RealGM mobile app

So was it management that got LeBron to the Finals' 9 times so far?

Or just management's fault that he lost 6 of them?

Yup, takes a whole roster to beat a team. One player can only have so much impact. Lebron has basically maximized his output for each series he has played apart from the 2011 debacle.

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MrBigShot · Post #16 » by **MrBigShot** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:20 am

I don't think LeBron and KD's "ring chasing" is even remotely comparable.

LeBron was the sole superstar on the Heat when they won their championships and did the heavy lifting; D Wade was no longer the same player after the 2010-2011 season. KD joined a team that just broke the record for most wins in a regular season, that steamrolled through the league and realistically would've had a very great chance to win a championship without him. The heat weren't gonna win jack without LeBron, and honestly neither were the Cavs with that supporting cast had LeBron stayed.

And it shows in the way people perceive them. LeBron went from a beloved superstar to perhaps the most hated player in the league and then back to a guy people love and perceive as a winner and champion. KD's championships in contrast didn't really do much to change perception of him around the league...if anything joining GS hurt his image, particularly with all of the burner stuff and general salty/questionable things he's said throughout the years. Hell KD himself came out and said that winning didn't quite bring him the sense of achievement/filling a void that he thought it would.

TMac Culloch · Post #17 » by **TMac Culloch** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:22 am

KD would be higher lol Lebron probably no difference

Woody Allen · Post #18 » by **Woody Allen** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:23 am

picko wrote:LeBron never became a ring chaser. He desired to control his own destiny. And left a poorly run franchise.

That's some hypocritical fanboy bullsh*t.

BarneyGumble · Post #19 » by **BarneyGumble** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:28 am

Behind Karl Malone and John Stockton.

KrAzY3 · Post #20 » by **KrAzY3** » Sun Feb 2, 2020 3:31 am

iggymcfrack wrote:No one in NBA history has ever spent their whole career with a front office as poor as what LeBron had in Cleveland.

That's simply inaccurate. Cleveland had issues, but even when he was on a really good Cleveland team people just pretend it wasn't.

The 66 win Cleveland team is tied for the most wins of any team Lebron every played on! Those 66 wins puts them right up there with the best of the Celtics Larry Bird teams, the Magic Johnson Lakers, the Duncan Spurs, etc..

And... before someone says, yeah well that Cavs team wasn't that great because they didn't win a championship, well neither did the 73 win Warriors team and I had to hear people complain for years about how great they were.