Is Zach LaVine a Winner?

[bledredwine]

Zach is a decent player on an awful team, which gives him the green light to lead.

Realistically, he’s another Minnesota Timberwolves and I think that it’s understood what I mean by that.

Empty stats.

[Stratmaster]

I don't know how anybody could make the case that Zach deserves to be an All Star after last night's game. It was Zach's career, in a nutshell. His tough, hard-nosed teammate goes down early in the game, Zach is asked to step it up, to lead the team in this teammate's absence, and ... Zach disappears. Not entirely coincidentally, his team gets torched.

Zach is a great beta for a team that has a couple of alphas. In that situation, he absolutely would be a winner. But don't expect him to lead the way.

Oh FFS. Yeah. Why can't Zach lead the Bulls to victory playing with 4 bench players and 4 G leaguers, while an opponent goes off for a career game?

Lavine has been human lately. But how did he disappear? 22 and 8 while his teammates are bounce passing to Jose Feliciano in the post and Coby is showing again that he is nowhere near ready for NBA basketball.

What do you mean "this teammates absence". I assume you were referring to Dunn? Or Lauri? Or Otto? Or Carter? Or Gafford?

How in the world could Lavine not overcome a 57 point performance by Irving playing on the road alongside Coby, Arch, Hutch Feliciano, Shaq Harrison and wild man Thad?

[dice]

it means that he can thrive w/ giannis out of the lineup. without practice being "the man". it means that he's not just cashing in on being 2nd option to a superstar

The Wizards are the worst defensive team in the NBA.

how many players have put up 30 against the wizards, let alone 50?

i don't care who you're up against. you put up 50, you've got game

you JUST said that great individual games mean nothing. and no, i don't discredit lavine's great games. there's good reason he's been in the conversation for all-star this season. but this conversation is about whether our offense would be "much worse" w/ middleton. which is flatly false

Because Middleton can't create his own shot, while he doesn't need to in Milwaukee. He's never had to carry an offense and plays with an MVP.

did you miss the part of the conversation you just responded to 15 seconds prior? who was creating his 50 point effort for him? who was creating the 3 other 20+ point performances he has had w/ giannis out of the lineup? his performance has not suffered as #1 option. it has gotten BETTER

middleton was a rookie 2nd round draft pick before giannis got there. ridiculous argument. guess who was one of the worst players in the league his first couple of seasons? that's right, zach lavine

It's not hard to figure out that Middleton finally became an all-star in his 8th year when he got to play with an MVP. Although I'm sure that's just a coincidence and had nothing to do with Giannis.

errr...middleton is now a 2 time all-star. meanwhile lavine is in his 6th season...zero time all star. he's got some catching up to do

and do you know what middleton would be w/ no giannis? the BEST player on one of the best teams in the east. as opposed to the 2nd best player on far and away the best team in the east. sure-fire all star either way

giannis is not magically carrying a mediocre squad to greatness. he's carrying a fantastic squad to greatness. giannis more likely than not HURTS the level of respect that middleton gets around the league because he plays in giannis's shadow

the bucks have played 4 games with giannis out of the lineup this season. they are 4-0, outscoring their weak opponents by a total of 72 points. led by khris middleton

PER is a **** stat. and this conversation was about offense. trying to changing the subject doesn't bode well for your argument. particularly when you lose on the new argument as well. because middleton is a pretty good defender. lavine, while much improved, is certainly not

PER is a bad stat when it doesn't favor your argument. Middleton is not a "pretty good" defender either, no evidence to support.

PER is straight garbage. flaming garbage. i've been saying it for years. as will anyone with any knowledge at all about the stat. it's widely maligned. doesn't sufficiently account for scoring efficiency. and even its creator acknowledges that it doesn't do a good job of taking defense into account. score a lot of points, get a lot of rebounds, you're gonna have a great PER. the average fan, who the stat is geared toward, won't question those results. career PER:

24th yao ming
35th andre drummond
63rd al jefferson
67th nikola vucevic
74th greg monroe
90th terrell brandon
99th carlos boozer
106th david lee
133rd scottie pippen

downright embarrassing

if you find a single example of me using a high PER to advocate for a player or a low PER to denigrate a player, i'll mail you a thousand dollars

friendly advice: don't waste your time

as for "no evidence to support" middleton being a pretty good defender...career DRPM (the only mainstream stat that does a good job of measuring defense):

1.63 jimmy butler
0.10 middleton
(2.64) lavine

0 is basically league average for rotation players. define middleton however you like, but his defense is certainly not a knock on him

he's STARTING in the all-star game? EASILY? what kind of a fantasy world are you living in?

Zach has never had close to the level of help that Middleton has, yet he's viewed as some kind of empty stats guy despite averaging 25 PPG which VERY FEW players do.

you kinda just gave the definition of empty stats

someone said that potato chips are empty calories and french fries have some limited nutritional value. using that analogy, i'd say that in their careers wiggins is a potato chip and lavine is a french fry. both have upped their nutritional value this season though

[TheGOATRises007]

People criticizing Lavine for his performance last night must be joking.

Kyrie had a career game.

I mean look at our team right now. Lavine is human. He can't put up 30 every night.

[Mech Engineer]

I was listening to Dallas Sports radio and they were talking about the snubbed players for the all-star game. They didn't even mention Lavine once. They talked about Bradley Beal and Booker being deserving but never about Lavine. I don't think they are biased against the Bulls and it just tells you what an NBA insider from outside the Bulls environment thinks of Lavine.

And, Beal and Booker are on losing teams too. But, the drumbeat of the hosting organuzation not having a representative on the all-star team will only increase in the next few days. This organization needs change in the worst way and it is not happening even with so many failures in almost every part of basketball operations.

Whether Lavine deserves or not, it is an embarrassment to a franchise which was the cream of the league for more than a decade. There is no one big thing which would bring a change on the Bulls. It has to be a death by thousand wounds which will make Jerry or Micheal take action.

[RedBulls23]

This answer by Zach shows a lot of maturity. I think his head is in the right spot.

Read on Twitter

[dice]

I was listening to Dallas Sports radio and they were talking about the snubbed players for the all-star game. They didn't even mention Lavine once. They talked about Bradley Beal and Booker being deserving but never about Lavine. I don't think they are biased against the Bulls and it just tells you what an NBA insider from outside the Bulls environment thinks of Lavine.

And, Beal and Booker are on losing teams too. But, the drumbeat of the hosting team not having a representative on the all-star will only increase in the next few days. This organization needs change in the worst way and it is not happening even with so many failures in almost every part of basketball operations.

Whether Lavine deserves or not, it is an embarrassment to a franchise which was the cream of the league for more than a decade. There is no one big thing which would bring a change on the Bulls. It has to be a death by thousand wounds which will make Jerry or Micheal take action.

29/5/6 beal
27/4/6 booker
25/5/4 lavine

most people focus on raw numbers and big names. beal has both going for him. and booker is probably a bigger name than lavine because he's been putting up those numbers longer

[bullsnewdynasty]

Middleton plays on a stacked team with no pressure. Players don't turn into "winners" and all-stars in their 8th year out of nowhere. The problem is the Skip Bayless/SAS type narrative which is infesting everyone's mindset about players. It's the same reason players join together to create superteams and don't want to compete. Players get judged relentlessly on team results even though it's no fault of their own and no indication about whether they are a "winner" or not.

LaVine has never had help in his career, so why is that his fault?

[PaKii94]

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/zach-lavines-run-20-point-games-ends-he-tries-play-right-way

Thank you Zach. It's a step forward. Hopefully he continues to play the right way when we get a full roster

[drosereturn]

Middleton plays on a stacked team with no pressure. Players don't turn into "winners" and all-stars in their 8th year out of nowhere. The problem is the Skip Bayless/SAS type narrative which is infesting everyone's mindset about players. It's the same reason players join together to create superteams and don't want to compete. Players get judged relentlessly on team results even though it's no fault of their own and no indication about whether they are a "winner" or not.

LaVine has never had help in his career, so why is that his fault?

Because scouts dont have to waste time figuring Lavine out whether he will do well in contending teams.
Middleton, Green have a skillset that translates to playoff teams and win whereas Lavine is nothing but a glorified microwave scorer.
If Giannis lets Lavine be the 1st option, Mil will have more losses than wins so Lavine is more of a freeloader.
You dont use the word help when describing Lavine. That word is more appropriate for 2011 Drose when he had Bogans.

[dice]

Middleton plays on a stacked team with no pressure. Players don't turn into "winners" and all-stars in their 8th year out of nowhere

this is inaccurate. i've pointed it out already. please stop repeating it

middleton has been a very good player for several years now. he was an all-star last season. he's taken it up a notch this season. giannis did not just join the team. and just because you weren't paying attention to the bucks when they were mediocre doesn't mean that middleton has suddenly broken out. did giannis just turn into a winner last season too? or has the roster just gotten a lot better?

[dougthonus]

Because scouts dont have to waste time figuring Lavine out whether he will do well in contending teams.
Middleton, Green have a skillset that translates to playoff teams and win whereas Lavine is nothing but a glorified microwave scorer.
If Giannis lets Lavine be the 1st option, Mil will have more losses than wins so Lavine is more of a freeloader.
You dont use the word help when describing Lavine. That word is more appropriate for 2011 Drose when he had Bogans.

Why would LaVine have to be the 1st option if he played with Giannis? If he was the second option and was a floor spacer who could attack off the dribble which is more or less exactly Middleton's role, I think LaVine would be pretty dominant offensively. His efficiency numbers would be way up IMO.

He wouldn't suddenly turn into an amazing defender with Giannis, but the amount of defense he'd have to play would probably be way down with perhaps the best most versatile defender in the league playing along side him to cover all of the really good wings when necessary.

I don't know if LaVine is a better player than Middleton, but I think if you swapped the two that you wouldn't see a huge difference between either clubs record.

[Tetlak]

Because scouts dont have to waste time figuring Lavine out whether he will do well in contending teams.
Middleton, Green have a skillset that translates to playoff teams and win whereas Lavine is nothing but a glorified microwave scorer.
If Giannis lets Lavine be the 1st option, Mil will have more losses than wins so Lavine is more of a freeloader.
You dont use the word help when describing Lavine. That word is more appropriate for 2011 Drose when he had Bogans.

Why would LaVine have to be the 1st option if he played with Giannis? If he was the second option and was a floor spacer who could attack off the dribble which is more or less exactly Middleton's role, I think LaVine would be pretty dominant offensively. His efficiency numbers would be way up IMO.

He wouldn't suddenly turn into an amazing defender with Giannis out, but the amount of defense he'd have to play would probably be way down with perhaps the best most versatile defender in the league playing along side him to cover all of the really good wings when necessary.

I don't know if LaVine is a better player than Middleton, but I think if you swapped the two that you wouldn't see a huge difference between either clubs record.

I don't know if that's true. The Bucks would be exactly the same, but the Bulls would be noticeably worse because Middleton does not have the same skillset as Zach, and would not be able to put the same pressure on the defense as the clear cut number 1. Regardless of your opinion on Zach and the way he plays, he undoubtedly has the ability to create any shot he wants, while Middleton does not.

[Mech Engineer]

Lavine can create his own shot but he is not there yet where he is able to read the defense a second early and create for others. Imagine having Lavine instead of Bogans in 2011, maybe the Bulls would have been lethal whenever Rose was double teamed. Static shooters don't help much.

That said, I am not sure how Lavine will fare against elite all stars at his position. He can get exposed on defense and might not be as impactful on offense because creating as a secondary creator is completely different. You don't have much time on the shot clock and need to make good decisions fast.

That is why it is crucial for guys to be on winning teams atleast by now. He is already trying to do too much and those bad habits will not go away easily even when he has a better cast around him.

In other words, Lavine needs to learn how to adjust to the top options and the cast.

[Red Larrivee]

Because Middleton can't create his own shot, while he doesn't need to in Milwaukee. He's never had to carry an offense and plays with an MVP.

You should watch more Middleton when you get a chance. He can get his own shot:

Isolation Plays:

LaVine: 0.88 PPP (2.8 poss/gm)
Middleton: 0.91 PPP (2.3 poss/gm)

Middleton doesn't have the athletic advantages Zach has, but he's improved significantly at getting to his spots quicker than his defender. Plus, he rises up quickly with a fast release and has become an elite shooter. Middleton has legitimately become a Top 20-25 player this season. PER36, he's averaging 25.1p, 7.3r, 5.2a on a .508/.441/.902 shooting line. He's Top 12 in the league in RPM as well. He's earned his all-star spot.

I agree that playing with Giannis offers more favorable defensive matchups, especially in a better offense, but right now Middleton is a noticeably better player than LaVine.

[Mirotek]

https://www.theringer.com/2020/2/6/21126126/all-star-weekends-trade-deadlines-and-zach-lavine

Haven't listened to it yet but Zach was on JJ Redick's podcast. Might be some interesting bits in there.

[LateNight]

https://www.theringer.com/2020/2/6/21126126/all-star-weekends-trade-deadlines-and-zach-lavine

Haven't listened to it yet but Zach was on JJ Redick's podcast. Might be some interesting bits in there.

Actually a fun interview - i was surprised to hear Zach talk about the team in a way that sounded like he expects to be here still when we start winning. I want him here, but I was starting to think he would leave the moment he could. Nice to hear a play that’s not talking about “if” we become a winning team, but “when” we become one

[drosereturn]

Zach is a decent player on an awful team, which gives him the green light to lead.

Realistically, he’s another Minnesota Timberwolves and I think that it’s understood what I mean by that.

Empty stats.

Even if he was not empty stats and miraculously became a better version of Booker, still dont want him with a supermax contract coming up occupying cap space. The infamous Wiggins, Towns, and Lavine were why T wolves were terrible for so long.
The guy has never been a winner in his entire career starting from college so he never knows what it means to win.
A good ex is his athleticism yet rarely uses it effectively like RW does. Its like whats the point owning a Ferrari when you never going over 100mph?

Just one of the worst players to build around, even arguably worse than Dre who was tossed around like trash.
Yes, he far exceeded my expectations shockingly but its almost like I want him to play a reduced role for the team.
Derozan who was infinitely better but didnt impact winning was dealt like dmged goods as soon as Masai had a chance to get an all time great. Hopefully, someone takes note and trade him for Simmons, Embiid in a package and complete the rebuild.

[bledredwine]

Zach is a decent player on an awful team, which gives him the green light to lead.

Realistically, he’s another Minnesota Timberwolves and I think that it’s understood what I mean by that.

Empty stats.

Even if he was not empty stats and miraculously became a better version of Booker, still dont want him with a supermax contract coming up occupying cap space. The infamous Wiggins, Towns, and Lavine were why T wolves were terrible for so long.
The guy has never been a winner in his entire career starting from college so he never knows what it means to win.
A good ex is his athleticism yet rarely uses it effectively like RW does. Its like whats the point owning a Ferrari when you never going over 100mph?

Just one of the worst players to build around, even arguably worse than Dre who was tossed around like trash.
Yes, he far exceeded my expectations shockingly but its almost like I want him to play a reduced role for the team.
Derozan who was infinitely better but didnt impact winning was dealt like dmged goods as soon as Masai had a chance to get an all time great. Hopefully, someone takes note and trade him for Simmons, Embiid in a package and complete the rebuild.

Harsh as it sounds,
I agree with you and couldn’t have said it better.

I love Zach’s personality, and he has a desire to win. He just doesn’t have the game and IQ to support it as a 1st or even 2nd option.

[MeloRoseNoah]

Zach is a decent player on an awful team, which gives him the green light to lead.

Realistically, he’s another Minnesota Timberwolves and I think that it’s understood what I mean by that.

Empty stats.

Even if he was not empty stats and miraculously became a better version of Booker, still dont want him with a supermax contract coming up occupying cap space. The infamous Wiggins, Towns, and Lavine were why T wolves were terrible for so long.
The guy has never been a winner in his entire career starting from college so he never knows what it means to win.
A good ex is his athleticism yet rarely uses it effectively like RW does. Its like whats the point owning a Ferrari when you never going over 100mph?

Just one of the worst players to build around, even arguably worse than Dre who was tossed around like trash.
Yes, he far exceeded my expectations shockingly but its almost like I want him to play a reduced role for the team.
Derozan who was infinitely better but didnt impact winning was dealt like dmged goods as soon as Masai had a chance to get an all time great. Hopefully, someone takes note and trade him for Simmons, Embiid in a package and complete the rebuild.

Harsh as it sounds,
I agree with you and couldn’t have said it better.

I love Zach’s personality, and he has a desire to win. He just doesn’t have the game and IQ to support it as a 1st or even 2nd option.

I love Zach's desire to win. But, it wouldn't surprise me that Lavine will be traded at some point next year by the trading deadline for draft picks.