MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

[TheBullsDynasty]

Giannis



Jokic

Harden
Lebron/AD
Luka

Jokic is absolutely dominating in the last 30 games or so. Denver is in 3rd place despite all the injuries all due to Jokic.

I think Lebron is still the second after Giannis. Jokic is great lately but it's a marathon not a sprint. It's about how great you were the whole season not part of it.

Having AD, who is arguably having just as good of a season as Lebron, kills Lebron’s MVP argument for me.

I agree about the marathon. If Jokic plays like this for the rest of the season, he’ll have a very good 65-70 game and mediocre 10-15 game season. We’ll see.

[GSP]

Id still have Lebron #2 but Jokic really does have a good case against anyone besides Giannis at this point

what a change. Dude was playing like a role player for the first month of the season. Since that game against us hes been playing like a top 3 to 5 player

[Infinite Llamas]

I’d advise anyone who thinks that “Giannis is the only choice” to watch the Denver-Jazz game last night. This race is far from over IF Denver can get that one seed.

[nomansland]

As much as I'd like to vote for Jokic, I think Giannis still gets it so far.

[scrabbarista]

as of the morning of February 6th

Since last week:

TOP 5 RISERS
1. Nikola Jokic +1.74 [team record 4-1]
2. Paul George +1.70 [3-1]
3. Pascal Siakam +1.55 [4-0]
4. James Harden +1.43 [3-0]
T-5. Jayson Tatum +1.32 [4-0]
T-5. Kyle Lowry +1.32 [4-0]

FALLERS
1. Donovan Mitchell -0.83 [team record 0-3]
2. Malcolm Brogdon -0.79 [0-3]
3. Devin Booker -0.75 [0-4]
4. Joel Embiid -0.71 [0-3]
5. Andrew Wiggins -0.68 [0-3]

James Harden goes from the FALLERS last week to this RISERS this week.
Devin Booker makes the opposite trek after two consecutive weeks as a RISER.
LeBron James misses the RISERS by a decimal.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOP TEN

1. 15.7 Antetokounmpo, MIL [since last week: even] [+0.46]
2. 15.1 James, LAL [+1] [+1.32]
3. 14.7 Gobert, UTA [-1] [+0.15]
4. 14.4 Harden, HOU [even] [+1.43]
5. 13.3 Lillard, POR [even] [+1.24]

6. 13.0 Leonard, LAC [even] [+1.13]
7. 12.7 Jokic, DEN [+2] [+1.74]
8. 11.9 Butler, MIA [even] [+0.46]
9. 11.6 Doncic, DAL [-2] [+0.01]
10. 11.1 Adebayo, MIA [+1] [+0.94]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The scores moved more than usual this week. I think this was partly because many teams played more games than usual. However, for various reasons, the rankings in the top ten moved less than usual.

What's set Giannis apart this season has been his consistency. From week to week and month to month, he doesn't always reach the highs of his nearest competitors - but he seems never to reach their lows, either.

[SeniorWalker]

Aside from the bucks having the best record in the league, isnt Giannis also a better player with better overall stats than everyone else today?

Not understanding the Jokic argument at all tbh.

[Infinite Llamas]

Aside from the bucks having the best record in the league, isnt Giannis also a better player with better overall stats than everyone else today?

Not understanding the Jokic argument at all tbh.

Better defender and dunker-yes. Better player? No.

[SeniorWalker]

Aside from the bucks having the best record in the league, isnt Giannis also a better player with better overall stats than everyone else today?

Not understanding the Jokic argument at all tbh.

Better defender and dunker-yes. Better player? No.

You in complete seriousness believe Jokic is better than Giannis?

[Infinite Llamas]

Aside from the bucks having the best record in the league, isnt Giannis also a better player with better overall stats than everyone else today?

Not understanding the Jokic argument at all tbh.

Better defender and dunker-yes. Better player? No.

You in complete seriousness believe Jokic is better than Giannis?

Jokic is the superior offensive player. Giannis is the better defensive player.
It’s just a matter of opinion of what each person values more.

[GiannisAnte34]

Better defender and dunker-yes. Better player? No.

You in complete seriousness believe Jokic is better than Giannis?

Jokic is the superior offensive player. Giannis is the better defensive player.
It’s just a matter of opinion of what each person values more.

hahahahahahaha

[mattg]

Better defender and dunker-yes. Better player? No.

You in complete seriousness believe Jokic is better than Giannis?

Jokic is the superior offensive player. Giannis is the better defensive player.
It’s just a matter of opinion of what each person values more.

Even if jokic is better on offense the gap between him and Giannis on that end is minuscule at best and Giannis is a top tier defensive player while jokic just isn’t even near there on that end. Great player but there’s levels to this and jokic is clearly a level below.

[NirvanaFC]

as of the morning of February 6th

Since last week:

TOP 5 RISERS
1. Nikola Jokic +1.74 [team record 4-1]
2. Paul George +1.70 [3-1]
3. Pascal Siakam +1.55 [4-0]
4. James Harden +1.43 [3-0]
T-5. Jayson Tatum +1.32 [4-0]
T-5. Kyle Lowry +1.32 [4-0]

FALLERS
1. Donovan Mitchell -0.83 [team record 0-3]
2. Malcolm Brogdon -0.79 [0-3]
3. Devin Booker -0.75 [0-4]
4. Joel Embiid -0.71 [0-3]
5. Andrew Wiggins -0.68 [0-3]

James Harden goes from the FALLERS last week to this RISERS this week.
Devin Booker makes the opposite trek after two consecutive weeks as a RISER.
LeBron James misses the RISERS by a decimal.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOP TEN

1. 15.7 Antetokounmpo, MIL [since last week: even] [+0.46]
2. 15.1 James, LAL [+1] [+1.32]
3. 14.7 Gobert, UTA [-1] [+0.15]
4. 14.4 Harden, HOU [even] [+1.43]
5. 13.3 Lillard, POR [even] [+1.24]

6. 13.0 Leonard, LAC [even] [+1.13]
7. 12.7 Jokic, DEN [+2] [+1.74]
8. 11.9 Butler, MIA [even] [+0.46]
9. 11.6 Doncic, DAL [-2] [+0.01]
10. 11.1 Adebayo, MIA [+1] [+0.94]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The scores moved more than usual this week. I think this was partly because many teams played more games than usual. However, for various reasons, the rankings in the top ten moved less than usual.

What's set Giannis apart this season has been his consistency. From week to week and month to month, he doesn't always reach the highs of his nearest competitors - but he seems never to reach their lows, either.

Why is AD not even top 10 in your formula? Is it because of his subpar on-off impact stats?

[scrabbarista]

as of the morning of February 6th

Since last week:

TOP 5 RISERS
1. Nikola Jokic +1.74 [team record 4-1]
2. Paul George +1.70 [3-1]
3. Pascal Siakam +1.55 [4-0]
4. James Harden +1.43 [3-0]
T-5. Jayson Tatum +1.32 [4-0]
T-5. Kyle Lowry +1.32 [4-0]

FALLERS
1. Donovan Mitchell -0.83 [team record 0-3]
2. Malcolm Brogdon -0.79 [0-3]
3. Devin Booker -0.75 [0-4]
4. Joel Embiid -0.71 [0-3]
5. Andrew Wiggins -0.68 [0-3]

James Harden goes from the FALLERS last week to this RISERS this week.
Devin Booker makes the opposite trek after two consecutive weeks as a RISER.
LeBron James misses the RISERS by a decimal.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TOP TEN

1. 15.7 Antetokounmpo, MIL [since last week: even] [+0.46]
2. 15.1 James, LAL [+1] [+1.32]
3. 14.7 Gobert, UTA [-1] [+0.15]
4. 14.4 Harden, HOU [even] [+1.43]
5. 13.3 Lillard, POR [even] [+1.24]

6. 13.0 Leonard, LAC [even] [+1.13]
7. 12.7 Jokic, DEN [+2] [+1.74]
8. 11.9 Butler, MIA [even] [+0.46]
9. 11.6 Doncic, DAL [-2] [+0.01]
10. 11.1 Adebayo, MIA [+1] [+0.94]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The scores moved more than usual this week. I think this was partly because many teams played more games than usual. However, for various reasons, the rankings in the top ten moved less than usual.

What's set Giannis apart this season has been his consistency. From week to week and month to month, he doesn't always reach the highs of his nearest competitors - but he seems never to reach their lows, either.

Why is AD not even top 10 in your formula? Is it because of his subpar on-off impact stats?

Yes, basically. He's currently at 14th overall, behind Chris Paul, Jayson Tatum, and Khris Middleton, respectively. Among the top nineteen overall, his on-off impact stuff is a massive outlier. Keep in mind this can be very fluid, though. By next week he could be top ten overall. Also, the nature of the formula means that on-off impact means relatively less and less as the season goes on. The formula is calibrated for 82 games, not 50 or whatever we're at right now.

[greekbuck34]

Better defender and dunker-yes. Better player? No.

You in complete seriousness believe Jokic is better than Giannis?

Jokic is the superior offensive player. Giannis is the better defensive player.
It’s just a matter of opinion of what each person values more.

[limbo]

The race been over...

Giannis:

1st in W/L record (43-7, 86% win rate)
2nd in WS
1st in WS/48
1st in DRtg
1st in PER
1st in USG
1st in BPM
1st in VORP
1st in PIPM
2nd in RPM

...

what else is there to say?

[SeniorWalker]

Better defender and dunker-yes. Better player? No.

You in complete seriousness believe Jokic is better than Giannis?

Jokic is the superior offensive player. Giannis is the better defensive player.
It’s just a matter of opinion of what each person values more.

I need some convincing that Jokic is the better offensive player. He may very well be more skilled in some areas but that alone does not mean he is more effective offensively. Giannis commands 5 players everytime he steps in the paint and still scores anyway at a very high clip. PER isnt a great modern stat but it is indicative of overall raw offensive contributions and Giannis right now has the highest of all time.

[Infinite Llamas]

You in complete seriousness believe Jokic is better than Giannis?

Jokic is the superior offensive player. Giannis is the better defensive player.
It’s just a matter of opinion of what each person values more.

I need some convincing that Jokic is the better offensive player. He may very well be more skilled in some areas but that alone does not mean he is more effective offensively. Giannis commands 5 players everytime he steps in the paint and still scores anyway at a very high clip. PER isnt a great modern stat but it is indicative of overall raw offensive contributions and Giannis right now has the highest of all time.

Just my opinion. Giannis may become the better offensive player but I see some flaws when I watch him. No I’m between game. Poor free throw shooter. Bad shot mechanics. Good but not great court vision. I still sense some hesitation in him at times too.

I’m not saying that he isn’t a fantastic player because he is, but these are just my observations. Jokic has no real weaknesses on offense. He can beat you in so many ways and not just with his shot but his vision.

What was that Sean Bean line from the first show of Game of Thrones? “A mad man sees what he sees”. Maybe I’m mad, but this is just what I see.

[The Lazy Potato]

I’d advise anyone who thinks that “Giannis is the only choice” to watch the Denver-Jazz game last night. This race is far from over IF Denver can get that one seed.

It's a marathon, not a sprint.. Doesn't matter how great jokic will be the rest of the season, it's about how great he was the whole season and Giannis have the advance on this..

[greekbuck34]

Jokic is the superior offensive player. Giannis is the better defensive player.
It’s just a matter of opinion of what each person values more.

I need some convincing that Jokic is the better offensive player. He may very well be more skilled in some areas but that alone does not mean he is more effective offensively. Giannis commands 5 players everytime he steps in the paint and still scores anyway at a very high clip. PER isnt a great modern stat but it is indicative of overall raw offensive contributions and Giannis right now has the highest of all time.

Just my opinion. Giannis may become the better offensive player but I see some flaws when I watch him. No I’m between game. Poor free throw shooter. Bad shot mechanics. Good but not great court vision. I still sense some hesitation in him at times too.

I’m not saying that he isn’t a fantastic player because he is, but these are just my observations. Jokic has no real weaknesses on offense. He can beat you in so many ways and not just with his shot but his vision.

What was that Sean Bean line from the first show of Game of Thrones? “A mad man sees what he sees”. Maybe I’m mad, but this is just what I see.

If Jokic has no real weaknesses and is unstoppable why then he doesn't average 30 points per 30 minutes on better efficiency and/or lead a top 2 offense in the NBA with his passing, presence and gravity?

He is 20ppg player for the second season in a row and the Nuggets have the 10th best offense and he doesn't even give 1/4 of the effort of Giannis on defense on top of that.

[NyKnicks1714]

Better defender and dunker-yes. Better player? No.

You in complete seriousness believe Jokic is better than Giannis?

Jokic is the superior offensive player. Giannis is the better defensive player.
It’s just a matter of opinion of what each person values more.

This is like when people used to claim Melo was a better scorer/offensive player than LeBron. You can point to how Jokic can do more things offensively, how much more "skilled" he is scoring the ball, and it's true. In the end though, Giannis is by far and away the better offensive player. If you score 10 ppg more than another player and do so more efficiently, you're the better scorer. Advanced stats will tell you the same thing.