Cavs trade for Drummond (why tho)

[jbk1234]

Bottom line is they added a paint presence with a skill set they were lacking. Henson was definitely the higher iq defender but Drummond is an elite athlete and pick and roll monster that can run with Sexton Cedi and KPJ and gives them an easy target when driving into the trees ...not to mention should open up Garlands game some.
As far as defense he can easily handle defending on switches out to the 3 and despite not having great stats with blocks impacts outcomes just by being there ...a lot.

Drummond is not an elite athlete. He's big and strong. They're not the same thing. Elite athletes don't let TT drop 31 on them. He's a PNR monster on one end (which again was an offense we were trying to move away from) and he's a PNR liability on the other end.

Also, if everything works just great, we're two thirds of the way through the season and have the second worst record in the league. Why are we beefing up the roster and trying to win now?

It seems like we're just lurching from one direction to the other without thinking through what comes next and that's a real serious problem in a rebuild.

The team is floundering badly on the verge of a full out veteran revolt. We have a chance to shake that up, maybe make Kevin happy, and check-out exactly the kind of player that might consider signing with us as a free-agent. So, why not?

I like Larry too, but he's not big enough to start at C on a regular basis either. Henson has terrific length, but gets pushed around. I mean ... he was measured at 6'9" 219lbs ... that's a 4lbs heavier than Cedi and 3lbs heavier than Porter Jr.

The veteran revolt already happened and was put down without mercy. I agree that Nance probably isn't an every night center. But unless Zizic is done, done, we could've made him a situational starter as we were two-thirds through the season. Maybe they don't like any of the other half dozen centers who will be on the market this summer but I really don't understand why TT and Drummond are both on the roster right now.

[gflem]

Perplexing move imo. Not the modern NBA/JB type of big. No moves to acquire any future assets. No idea if he will opt in/out, If a s&t would be available after the season, no TT trade means that they will be sharing minutes in a contract year for TT and maybe Drummond so that isn't optimal, and finally if Drummond does fit in well, helps right the ship and gets enough wins to get the 11th pick in the draft we lose our pick!
This seems like a Dan Gilbert type of move, in that he is in love with anything Michigan, and doesn't seem to have the future in mind with some of his ideas/rants. Why in the world would Altman make this type of move with everything mentioned above? So the team isn't so severely undersized now, so what? Not moving TT because someone wouldn't offer a first? Again, so what? I guess there is a possibility that we could s&t him as well but that doesn't seem likely at this point.
I have been disappointed with the effort and rotations of this team for a while with the understanding that we are tanking to keep the pick, but I can't find any reason to root for substantial improvement at this point of the season. If we lose the pick and Drummond opts out it is a total disaster. I spoke to a co-worker in our Detroit office today shortly after the trade, and he is happy as can be that they traded Drummond, he said " his stats are empty stats, he loafs frequently, his body language is terrible", and that he has been hoping they would trade him for the last two years. Then he said, "don't worry you will see". Not too promising, so hopefully this move won't translate into too many wins this season.

The bolded is the only part I'm not worried about. But we could be picking 6-10 instead of 1-5.

Right, and in this case 6-10 is much worse than 1-5. We missed Wendell Carter by one pick. We miss Deandre Hunter by one pick. It really matters where the pick ends up even if we don't lose it. And I totally agree that they better not even think about extending Drummond at some ridiculous number. On the trade board some people are talking 22 mil per, that is about 5 mil too much of you ask me. But so was Love's contract so who knows, maybe we can pay 70 mil per for two front court players, and then run out a bunch of 6'1" guys to fill out the roster.

[Stillwater]

2 things
1 this draft is projected to be really really bad unless you need a ball dominant guard in the top 10, want to overpick a non shooting 3/4 like Achiuwa or have the #1 pick for Wiseman.
2. even sitting with the 6th worst record they can't lose the pick . I am not at all worried Dre makes us good enough to be better than that anyway and might just as well pick at 9 than 4 tbh
So the sum of all this imo is Dre gives us an option this summer of keeping TT if Dre leaves and at a cheaper more reasonable amount than TT expects right now.
He is an elite level athlete btw not sure why anyone would say he isn't given his mobility at 285lbs. Just as mobile as TT, more length and easily more capable above the rim protector despite lacking tts motor.

[JonFromVA]

Drummond is not an elite athlete. He's big and strong. They're not the same thing. Elite athletes don't let TT drop 31 on them. He's a PNR monster on one end (which again was an offense we were trying to move away from) and he's a PNR liability on the other end.

Also, if everything works just great, we're two thirds of the way through the season and have the second worst record in the league. Why are we beefing up the roster and trying to win now?

It seems like we're just lurching from one direction to the other without thinking through what comes next and that's a real serious problem in a rebuild.

The team is floundering badly on the verge of a full out veteran revolt. We have a chance to shake that up, maybe make Kevin happy, and check-out exactly the kind of player that might consider signing with us as a free-agent. So, why not?

I like Larry too, but he's not big enough to start at C on a regular basis either. Henson has terrific length, but gets pushed around. I mean ... he was measured at 6'9" 219lbs ... that's a 4lbs heavier than Cedi and 3lbs heavier than Porter Jr.

The veteran revolt already happened and was put down without mercy. I agree that Nance probably isn't an every night center. But unless Zizic is done, done, we could've made him a situational starter as we were two-thirds through the season. Maybe they don't like any of the other half dozen centers who will be on the market this summer but I really don't understand why TT and Drummond are both on the roster right now.

Oh, I'm not so sure about that. The revolt may have only been put on hold pending the trade deadline ... and now here we are ... and neither Kevin nor Tristan were moved. Nobody thought either of them was worth giving up anything substantial.

Now, Kevin and Andre share an agent. There's a chance this trade is a positive for Kevin? We'll have to see.

As for Tristan, his agent has made a point of letting us know that his clients have never accepted a buyout. If Tristan won't play the good soldier for a few more months, we may be forced to send him home. But hey, maybe his agent will encourage him not to sabotage his other client on the team.

Zizic hasn't played since he got punched in the head. I haven't heard if he'll be cleared to play, but it seems every time he starts looking like he might be good for something - he gets hurt. We can't exactly count on him.

IMO, if TT sticks around, he will be used like he was back when we had Timo, meaning he will come off the bench but his minutes will vary with Andre depending who's more effective on any given night. Kevin will split time at PF with Larry ... and Ante, Dean Wade, etc, will be lucky to get to play garbage time.

[jbk1234]

Perplexing move imo. Not the modern NBA/JB type of big. No moves to acquire any future assets. No idea if he will opt in/out, If a s&t would be available after the season, no TT trade means that they will be sharing minutes in a contract year for TT and maybe Drummond so that isn't optimal, and finally if Drummond does fit in well, helps right the ship and gets enough wins to get the 11th pick in the draft we lose our pick!
This seems like a Dan Gilbert type of move, in that he is in love with anything Michigan, and doesn't seem to have the future in mind with some of his ideas/rants. Why in the world would Altman make this type of move with everything mentioned above? So the team isn't so severely undersized now, so what? Not moving TT because someone wouldn't offer a first? Again, so what? I guess there is a possibility that we could s&t him as well but that doesn't seem likely at this point.
I have been disappointed with the effort and rotations of this team for a while with the understanding that we are tanking to keep the pick, but I can't find any reason to root for substantial improvement at this point of the season. If we lose the pick and Drummond opts out it is a total disaster. I spoke to a co-worker in our Detroit office today shortly after the trade, and he is happy as can be that they traded Drummond, he said " his stats are empty stats, he loafs frequently, his body language is terrible", and that he has been hoping they would trade him for the last two years. Then he said, "don't worry you will see". Not too promising, so hopefully this move won't translate into too many wins this season.

The bolded is the only part I'm not worried about. But we could be picking 6-10 instead of 1-5.

Right, and in this case 6-10 is much worse than 1-5. We missed Wendell Carter by one pick. We miss Deandre Hunter by one pick. It really matters where the pick ends up even if we don't lose it. And I totally agree that they better not even think about extending Drummond at some ridiculous number. On the trade board some people are talking 22 mil per, that is about 5 mil too much of you ask me. But so was Love's contract so who knows, maybe we can pay 70 mil per for two front court players, and then run out a bunch of 6'1" guys to fill out the roster.

I don't think you can pay even a good, but flawed, center more than $14M per in the modern NBA. JV signed a three year deal at $15M per and I think he has, at best, neutral trade value on it. Like, I didn't change the way the game was officiated in the post, I didn't change how the rules favor offensive guards/wings, and I didn't change the shot clock after an offensive rebound. But all of those things happened. It matters.

When Drummond and TT were drafted, Pekovic, Kofus, Asik, and Mozgov were considered good centers. How much better are/were any of those guys than Zizic? Perkins still had enough trade value to land Jeff Green. Dwight Howard was considered a superstar. The Cavs signed a guy whose knees were so shot he couldn't jump in Bynum and people were excited about it. That's not the league anymore. You've got young centers who protect the rim better than either TT or Drummond playing for half of the MLE or less. I mean McGee and Howard sonned us when played the Lakers and they don't even make $10M combined. WCS makes even less and just got traded for a second. There are a lot a bunch of serviceable and inexpensive centers in the NBA and the position has been devalued.

[JonFromVA]

Perplexing move imo. Not the modern NBA/JB type of big. No moves to acquire any future assets. No idea if he will opt in/out, If a s&t would be available after the season, no TT trade means that they will be sharing minutes in a contract year for TT and maybe Drummond so that isn't optimal, and finally if Drummond does fit in well, helps right the ship and gets enough wins to get the 11th pick in the draft we lose our pick!
This seems like a Dan Gilbert type of move, in that he is in love with anything Michigan, and doesn't seem to have the future in mind with some of his ideas/rants. Why in the world would Altman make this type of move with everything mentioned above? So the team isn't so severely undersized now, so what? Not moving TT because someone wouldn't offer a first? Again, so what? I guess there is a possibility that we could s&t him as well but that doesn't seem likely at this point.
I have been disappointed with the effort and rotations of this team for a while with the understanding that we are tanking to keep the pick, but I can't find any reason to root for substantial improvement at this point of the season. If we lose the pick and Drummond opts out it is a total disaster. I spoke to a co-worker in our Detroit office today shortly after the trade, and he is happy as can be that they traded Drummond, he said " his stats are empty stats, he loafs frequently, his body language is terrible", and that he has been hoping they would trade him for the last two years. Then he said, "don't worry you will see". Not too promising, so hopefully this move won't translate into too many wins this season.

It's hard to evaluate players when the pieces you've got don't fit together. Drummond is hardly ideal, but for instance check this out:

http://www.82games.com/1920/1920DET2.HTM

Look at the top 5-man unit with Drummond and Griffin. They outscored their opponents 88.8% of the time, and had a net pp100 of 19.

That's pretty darn good ... that is when the Piston's were able to play the starting lineup they actually wanted to play.

You know Andre Drummond isn't the only player in the league who's energy and attention span nosedives when things aren't going well. We seem to have a few of them on our team.

Whether this is the right fit to perk them all up is TBD ... but I think they will respond well to the idea that the FO is providing help rather then trading away what little fire power they have left after dealing Clarkson.

[jbk1234]

2 things
1 this draft is projected to be really really bad unless you need a ball dominant guard in the top 10, want to overpick a non shooting 3/4 like Achiuwa or have the #1 pick for Wiseman.
2. even sitting with the 6th worst record they can't lose the pick . I am not at all worried Dre makes us good enough to be better than that anyway and might just as well pick at 9 than 4 tbh
So the sum of all this imo is Dre gives us an option this summer of keeping TT if Dre leaves and at a cheaper more reasonable amount than TT expects right now.
He is an elite level athlete btw not sure why anyone would say he isn't given his mobility at 285lbs. Just as mobile as TT, more length and easily more capable above the rim protector despite lacking tts motor.

Here's your elite level athlete:

Watch on YouTube

[tmorgan]

Just stopping by to give some info:

(for context, i was a Drummond guy for a few years that has soured on him for the last couple seasons)

1) He is, at the very least, a near elite athlete. His speed for his size is very good, he moves his feet pretty well, and has the absolute best hands on a center in the NBA. Check his steals, his lob-catching, and his rebounding in traffic — all elite.
2) He is an immature person. Not a bad locker room guy or anything, and certainly not a troublemaker off the court, but just a guy that hasn’t, and likely will never, grow up. He pouts on the court, gets in his own head, and his effort level fluctuates wildly.
3) His basketball IQ is poor. His shot selection isn’t great, and he wants to dribble way more than he should. He’d like to become a perimeter threat and passing hub, but the results have been poor enough that we kept going away from it for various reasons.
4) His touch at the rim comes and goes. He obviously has no range, and to shoot only 53% or so that close to the bucket is maddening.
5) He did work really hard to improve from a 35% to about 60% free throw shooter. That was impressive. Maybe embarrassment is his best motivator — that fits his personality. Since it’s embarrassing to get traded for next to nothing, maybe this will fire him up.

Honestly, Beilein might be a good coach for him. He’s a kid, and JB was at his best coaching kids at Michigan. He’s a good fit with Love. I won’t be the least bit mad if you decide to keep him and make something more out of him. He’s a likable guy. But we were obviously ready to move on.

[tmorgan]

Oh, one more thing. People who call him a good defender OR a bad defender, they’re both wrong. It’s completely game-to-game with him. Some nights he’ll give up a career high to TT, and others he’ll deter (younger) LeBron from even trying to get into the paint. His awareness and effort on that end is all over the place.

[KuruptedCav]

I really better not end up hearing that a team like Dallas offered that GS 2nd for TT and we passed. The idea that there's a first waiting out there for TT in a S&T scenario, on the contract he wants, is delusional. Also, if you ask me which of Drummond, TT or Henson (on a bargain contract) were the best options going forward at center, I think I'm taking the latter. Both TT and Drummond are vastly overrated on the defensive end.

Drummond at least is a legitimate offensive threat but I hope that Sexton and Garland have their medical insurance paid up because if they start freezing him out, there's going to be some furniture moving in the locker room. Drummond isn't exactly a Beilein center. Like does our F.O. think through these issues or are we just evaluating value in a vacuum?

The idea of leveraging Drummond and TT against each other this summer strikes me as LOL dumb. Pitting those two together in that situation seems like a recipe for great locker room chemistry for the rest of the year. The only leverage you should need is we think you're worth around the MLE, we think that's where the center market is going for non-superstar centers, and if we're wrong, let some poorly managed team prove us wrong.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

I had a lot of trouble finding trades for TT that put him in a place that would want him, weren’t convoluted value/complexity, and didn’t make the Cavs situation materially worse (long contracts for ill fitting players).


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[Stillwater]

[

Here's your elite level athlete:

Watch on YouTube

[/quote]

1 game dude?
Drummond has always been hot and cold on motor and clearly wasn't into it at all. That has nothing to do with ability. The funny thing is you must not ever watch Detroit other than Cavs games to believe he isn't an elite athlete.
He ain't Harrison Barnes or Westbrook level but for a big he's athletic as hell
Why compare to TT anyway we already know he's a lunchpale high motor guy who can have a good game when players like Dre don't bring it

[jbk1234]

I really better not end up hearing that a team like Dallas offered that GS 2nd for TT and we passed. The idea that there's a first waiting out there for TT in a S&T scenario, on the contract he wants, is delusional. Also, if you ask me which of Drummond, TT or Henson (on a bargain contract) were the best options going forward at center, I think I'm taking the latter. Both TT and Drummond are vastly overrated on the defensive end.

Drummond at least is a legitimate offensive threat but I hope that Sexton and Garland have their medical insurance paid up because if they start freezing him out, there's going to be some furniture moving in the locker room. Drummond isn't exactly a Beilein center. Like does our F.O. think through these issues or are we just evaluating value in a vacuum?

The idea of leveraging Drummond and TT against each other this summer strikes me as LOL dumb. Pitting those two together in that situation seems like a recipe for great locker room chemistry for the rest of the year. The only leverage you should need is we think you're worth around the MLE, we think that's where the center market is going for non-superstar centers, and if we're wrong, let some poorly managed team prove us wrong.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

I had a lot of trouble finding trades for TT that put him in a place that would want him, weren’t convoluted value/complexity, and didn’t make the Cavs situation materially worse (long contracts for ill fitting players).


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Which is why if a team offered a decent second and expiring contracts, I would've taken it a month ago. I just don't see a scenario where a team is surrendering an asset for the privilege of paying TT more than the MLE. It was a bad sign when the Rockets tapped out because *they couldn't make the numbers work.* They have no center, no way of getting one outside of the buyout market, and that they preferred that option.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[SamFlow]

Just stopping by to give some info:

(for context, i was a Drummond guy for a few years that has soured on him for the last couple seasons)

1) He is, at the very least, a near elite athlete. His speed for his size is very good, he moves his feet pretty well, and has the absolute best hands on a center in the NBA. Check his steals, his lob-catching, and his rebounding in traffic — all elite.
2) He is an immature person. Not a bad locker room guy or anything, and certainly not a troublemaker off the court, but just a guy that hasn’t, and likely will never, grow up. He pouts on the court, gets in his own head, and his effort level fluctuates wildly.
3) His basketball IQ is poor. His shot selection isn’t great, and he wants to dribble way more than he should. He’d like to become a perimeter threat and passing hub, but the results have been poor enough that we kept going away from it for various reasons.
4) His touch at the rim comes and goes. He obviously has no range, and to shoot only 53% or so that close to the bucket is maddening.
5) He did work really hard to improve from a 35% to about 60% free throw shooter. That was impressive. Maybe embarrassment is his best motivator — that fits his personality. Since it’s embarrassing to get traded for next to nothing, maybe this will fire him up.

Honestly, Beilein might be a good coach for him. He’s a kid, and JB was at his best coaching kids at Michigan. He’s a good fit with Love. I won’t be the least bit mad if you decide to keep him and make something more out of him. He’s a likable guy. But we were obviously ready to move on.

As a life long piston, SPOT ON.

My thoughts were he had to man up. Needed to be humbled that NOBODY want's him and NOBODY will pay him what he wants. Great thought on Beilein being good to help a manchild grow up. I knew it wasn't going to be with the pistons, so time to move on. But spot on analysis.

[JonFromVA]

Just stopping by to give some info:

(for context, i was a Drummond guy for a few years that has soured on him for the last couple seasons)

1) He is, at the very least, a near elite athlete. His speed for his size is very good, he moves his feet pretty well, and has the absolute best hands on a center in the NBA. Check his steals, his lob-catching, and his rebounding in traffic — all elite.
2) He is an immature person. Not a bad locker room guy or anything, and certainly not a troublemaker off the court, but just a guy that hasn’t, and likely will never, grow up. He pouts on the court, gets in his own head, and his effort level fluctuates wildly.
3) His basketball IQ is poor. His shot selection isn’t great, and he wants to dribble way more than he should. He’d like to become a perimeter threat and passing hub, but the results have been poor enough that we kept going away from it for various reasons.
4) His touch at the rim comes and goes. He obviously has no range, and to shoot only 53% or so that close to the bucket is maddening.
5) He did work really hard to improve from a 35% to about 60% free throw shooter. That was impressive. Maybe embarrassment is his best motivator — that fits his personality. Since it’s embarrassing to get traded for next to nothing, maybe this will fire him up.

Honestly, Beilein might be a good coach for him. He’s a kid, and JB was at his best coaching kids at Michigan. He’s a good fit with Love. I won’t be the least bit mad if you decide to keep him and make something more out of him. He’s a likable guy. But we were obviously ready to move on.

As a life long piston, SPOT ON.

My thoughts were he had to man up. Needed to be humbled that NOBODY want's him and NOBODY will pay him what he wants. Great thought on Beilein being good to help a manchild grow up. I knew it wasn't going to be with the pistons, so time to move on. But spot on analysis.

The Pistons have been pretty good when everyone is healthy ... but some key player in the starting 5 is always getting hurt.

I would presume Andre's energy and attention are higher when things are going well ... is this true? Or is the team just more capable of surviving Andre's swings?

[tmorgan]

The Pistons have been pretty good when everyone is healthy ... but some key player in the starting 5 is always getting hurt.

I would presume Andre's energy and attention are higher when things are going well ... is this true? Or is the team just more capable of surviving Andre's swings?

His good starts roll into good games, certainly. If he dunks on someone he feels invincible and good things happen.

As for game-to-game and team success, not really as far as I can tell. He is just inconsistent. Not sure why, but my guess is that it doesn’t take much to throw him off for a bit because he’s mentally shaky.

[Phreak50]

I wonder how many of the fans here with positive thoughts on this move have actually watched Drummond play vs reading his box scores.

He has less skill on offense than TT and is one of the biggest bonehead decision makers in the game.

I don't get the move at all.

[Stillwater]

I wonder how many of the fans here with positive thoughts on this move have actually watched Drummond play vs reading his box scores.

He has less skill on offense than TT and is one of the biggest bonehead decision makers in the game.

I don't get the move at all.

All he has to do is come to work rebound get put backs and catch lobs.
Nobody is expecting LeBron bb iq from a center.
He is bigger than TT and tbh having Drummond available is at the least a apples to apples option if they buyout TT.
Personally think knight who wasn't playing and rarely used until past month Henson along with a few 2023 2nd likely to be late 2nd for a rental is more than reasonable. Heck even him opting in as opposed to bailing is fine because he will be in a contract year and motivation is his biggest issue thus far in his career.
He's prone to fouling and having dumb clueless looks on his face to try to act as if the refs wrong but he really is not a low iq player at all... Just gets caught a lot

[JonFromVA]

I wonder how many of the fans here with positive thoughts on this move have actually watched Drummond play vs reading his box scores.

He has less skill on offense than TT and is one of the biggest bonehead decision makers in the game.

I don't get the move at all.

Cavs play the Pistons quite a bit, so, we've seen plenty of the good and bad from Andre.

[DrCoach]

Sounds like you got a bigger and younger TT

[JonFromVA]

Here's your elite level athlete:

Watch on YouTube

1 game dude?
Drummond has always been hot and cold on motor and clearly wasn't into it at all. That has nothing to do with ability. The funny thing is you must not ever watch Detroit other than Cavs games to believe he isn't an elite athlete.
He ain't Harrison Barnes or Westbrook level but for a big he's athletic as hell
Why compare to TT anyway we already know he's a lunchpale high motor guy who can have a good game when players like Dre don't bring it

I'd add that Drummond was 28 & 23 in that game and played an insane 49 minutes (TT almost matched him at 45 minutes). Drummond was clearly worn down by the end and was barely moving. Which is not to take anything away from TT who had an amazing game and still had something left in the tank, but 49 minutes for a man that large is crazy.