Kobe Bryant Athleticism

LakerLegend · Post #61 » by **LakerLegend** » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:43 am

E-Balla · Post #62 » by **E-Balla** » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:53 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:Well allow me to get on my soapbox because I have long been begging people here to take a more holistic view on athleticism.

Strength is the most underrated aspect of athleticism Butler is all-time strong for a wing. This is the main reason his draw rate is so high and he’s so effective as a slasher. He’s also top-tier in body control and has an insane vertical so he can live off Kobe-style fade-aways.

Butler is a historically good offensive rebounder for a wing, maybe GOAT, which is one of the skills most dependent on athleticism. He’s also an excellent shot blocker for a wing despite having poor length and his lateral explosiveness along with his strength allowed him to be a top-tier wing defender for most of his early career. Dude also has ridiculous endurance and would play high-intensity two-way ball while often leading the league in minutes while being coached by Thibs.

He’s not close to Vince or T-Mac as a one foot leaper so he’s not getting a bunch of dunks off the dribble. But his two-foot explosion is elite; tested a 39 inch vertical at the combine, only Isaiah Thomas and Kemba were clearly better in his draft class. Because he’s a two-foot jumper most of his dunks would come off-ball. But if you look at the numbers, he’s not far off Vince at all- in their best seasons, were talking about the difference between 1.0 and 1.1 dunks per game.

You're conflating strength with mental toughness.

Vince Carter is arguably the strongest star SG ever. He was like 230 lbs, lean as all hell and then of course he had insane hops and straight line speed too.

T-Mac on the other hand was an incredibly smooth athlete and while he wasn't the strongest, he wasn't weak at all once he put muscle on later in his Orlando days.

I saw later you mentioned offensive rebounding and tied it to Jimmy's strength but failed to mention Vince twice averaging 2.3 ORBs a night and having a 6 ORB% his first 4 seasons. You also failed to mention T-Mac peaking at 2.5 ORBs a night and a 12 ORB%. If you wanna talk GOAT offensive rebounders at the wing positions the conversation T-Mac is easily in the top 5.

Also you mentioned Jimmy's ability to block shots and tied that to his athleticism... In Toronto T-Mac had over a 2 stl% and 4 blk%. Vince also averaged 1.5 bpg as a rookie and obliterated shots.

As far as the dunks go Vince (and T-Mac) played at a time where there were much less dunks because the game was much harder for perimeter players. LeBron peaked in dunks in 2017 not because he was more athletic than ever. In the modern day NBA Vince is dunking closer to 2 times a game than 1.

Overall as athletes Vince is lacking in one area (lateral quickness). Outside of that he's arguably the GOAT in every other way. He had a combine tested 43.0 inch vertical (top 5 all time iirc and the 2nd highest for a player his height in the NFL or NBA combine history), was just as big as Jimmy (Jimmy was 6-7.75 in sneakers, 222 at the combine while Vince was 6-7 in sneakers, 219 at the combine), was way faster than Jimmy, and was probably just as strong as Jimmy physically. Vince being soft and not using his natural strength was a stylistic choice. Jimmy has him beat when it comes to his ability to use his physical tools on the court on the defensive end, but Vince never even gave much effort towards defense. If he did there's no way he wouldn't be an impact defender.

T-Mac on the other hand is in that rare realm very few athletes have ever been in. This is a guy that was simultaneously athletic enough on raw run, jump, power ability to have a 10 ORB%, 2 STL%, and 4 BLK% between ages 18 and 20 and athletic enough to develop some of the best handles and wiggle ever seen in a player his size (if not the best), with arguably GOAT body control for a player his size. Looking at players from ages 18-21 over 2000 minutes to have a 8 ORB%, 2 STL%, and 3.5 BLK% gives us:

Kevin Garnett
Andrei Kirilenko
Anthony Davis
Nerlens Noel
Tyrus Thomas
Tracy McGrady

Screw Jimmy, if it wasn't for his durability issues I'd put T-Mac over Jordan athletically. No 2 guard was more athletic than T-Mac on the actual court. The things he was able to do with his first step, lateral quickness, straight line speed, length, hops (legend has it that his vert was 43 inches but I never saw his head over the rim nearly that much so 40 seems more likely), and body control was unparalleled.

No other player has ever been athletic enough to have had the opportunity to be a KG type defensive anchor, or a Kobe/MJ type scorer if they put their minds to it (Tracy decided to be Kobe/MJ and not KG though).

Watch on YouTube

This is one of my favorite channels to go back and watch. It's full of videos of young T-Mac and you can really see how insane his raw athleticism was. He's one of those D. Rose type athletes in that he was too athletic for his own good. Those back issues came from biomechanical issues so he was never going to last forever but man was he special.

IG2 · Post #63 » by **IG2** » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:22 pm

LakerLegend wrote:

Watch on YouTube

@ only posting MJ videos in 720 60fps that tends to make everyone look relatively slow.

Mogspan · Post #64 » by **Mogspan** » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:18 pm

Ben Simmons is arguably the best athlete to ever live. He's elite at every facet of athleticism, which has allowed him to be an All-NBA-caliber perimeter player in the modern NBA despite being the worst shooter in the league and a world-class ****boy. LeBron himself has said that Simmons could be the GOAT, as he recognizes that he's a taller, more fluid version of himself.

OdomFan · Post #65 » by **OdomFan** » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:14 pm

I'd say his Athleticism is atleast in the top 10 of all NBA players, and top 5 of all Wings of that category. Coming into the league out of High School will sort of do a bit of damage as far as this category goes up against older guys he played earlier in his career, but he definitely got stronger and stronger as his progressed towards his prime years. The guy was a workhouse and I'm glad he played for my Lakers.

LakerLegend · Post #66 » by **LakerLegend** » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:36 am

IG2 wrote:
LakerLegend wrote:

Watch on YouTube

@ only posting MJ videos in 720 60fps that tends to make everyone look relatively slow.

Watch on YouTube

LakerLegend · Post #67 » by **LakerLegend** » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:04 am

Watch on YouTube

gorz · Post #68 » by **gorz** » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:08 am

Zeitgeister wrote:I mean, Kobe was definitely exceptionally athletic but when you compare him to his peers like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Dwayne Wade, I think it's difficult for me to put him above any of them.

He was definitely a better athlete than wade.

DirtyDez · Post #69 » by **DirtyDez** » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:16 am

LakerLegend wrote:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Other than Vince, Kobe and Gerald Green I don’t remember many in-game full windmills off two feet. Emphasis on *full.

Optms · Post #70 » by **Optms** » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:25 am

I don't agree with Wade being a better athlete than Kobe. He was certainly much quicker in the open floor and generally faster but that isn't all that athleticism is. Kobe's ability to contort and maneuver his body against the clogged lanes of the old NBA were second to none. IMO, only Michael and Carter could do it as well if not better.

LakerLegend · Post #71 » by **LakerLegend** » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:03 pm

Watch on YouTube

LakerLegend · Post #72 » by **LakerLegend** » Thu Mar 5, 2020 3:48 am

Watch on YouTube

LakerLegend · Post #73 » by **LakerLegend** » Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:51 am

Watch on YouTube

Post #74 » by **fanofthegreats** » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:45 am

Saw him his whole career. Criminally underrated in terms of basketball body. I’d really only take James and Jordan from an athletic standpoint (amongst perimeter guys)

LakerLegend · Post #75 » by **LakerLegend** » Sat May 30, 2020 6:46 pm

Watch on YouTube

Post #76 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Sat May 30, 2020 11:14 pm

Optms wrote:I don't agree with Wade being a better athlete than Kobe. He was certainly much quicker in the open floor and generally faster but that isn't all that athleticism is. Kobe's ability to contort and maneuver his body against the clogged lanes of the old NBA were second to none. IMO, only Michael and Carter could do it as well if not better.

I think Wade’s ability to explode from a standstill is second only to MJ. I think Kobe is probably better At everything else, but it’s the great equalizer and the most important athletic trait for a perimeter player IMO(assuming they have adequate size/length)

Wade at his peak was pretty close to LeBron as a player despite being smaller, less range, a worse passer, not as fast in the open court, and not the leaper LeBron was, and it pretty much all came down to his ability to beat guys off the dribble in the half court, beat help defense to the rim, and cause havoc inside.

I wouldn’t say he’s for sure a better athlete or more useful athlete than Kobe, but I think first step speed can make up for a ton more faults than it is given credit for.

Jiminy Glick · Post #77 » by **Jiminy Glick** » Sat May 30, 2020 11:16 pm

After watching a lot of videos on him recently I actually think he is not an elite upper tier athlete. Not close to LeBron, Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Garnett, and others. With that being said I think he was an underrated passer and if running the offense and not being in the Triangle offense he could of averaged 7 or more assists for many seasons if he wanted to.

He was really athletic during his championship runs with Shaq of 2000-2002 then I think he lost some athleticism after that. Amazing athlete though just not on the level of those players I mentioned.

Pelly24 · Post #78 » by **Pelly24** » Sun May 31, 2020 7:30 pm

NO-KG-AI wrote:
Optms wrote:I don't agree with Wade being a better athlete than Kobe. He was certainly much quicker in the open floor and generally faster but that isn't all that athleticism is. Kobe's ability to contort and maneuver his body against the clogged lanes of the old NBA were second to none. IMO, only Michael and Carter could do it as well if not better.

I think Wade’s ability to explode from a standstill is second only to MJ. I think Kobe is probably better At everything else, but it’s the great equalizer and the most important athletic trait for a perimeter player IMO(assuming they have adequate size/length)

Wade at his peak was pretty close to LeBron as a player despite being smaller, less range, a worse passer, not as fast in the open court, and not the leaper LeBron was, and it pretty much all came down to his ability to beat guys off the dribble in the half court, beat help defense to the rim, and cause havoc inside.

I wouldn’t say he’s for sure a better athlete or more useful athlete than Kobe, but I think first step speed can make up for a ton more faults than it is given credit for.

I used to think Kobe was more athletic, but I change my mind. I think Kobe had more bounce but Wade was faster and more powerful than Kobe for sure. Wade was maybe the fastest player in the league. He had the speed and acceleration of Peak D. Rose and he had as good of body control as Kobe and he was built like a tank at 6'4" 220 with a thick upper body like running back. He was never as good a shooter as Kobe, he was only about 6'4" without shoes, but he was able to be the best shot-blocking guard ever and be a dominant scorer and collapse entire defenses. Kobe I think is

Sign5 · Post #79 » by **Sign5** » Sun May 31, 2020 7:50 pm

Wade may not have been as athletic as Rose or Westbrook but he used his athleticism to the max. A guy that was 6'4 but was routinely top 5 in total dunks each year of his prime (behind only top centers and Bron)

He was quicker, stronger and more explosive than Kobe. I'd say he had more body control too but that's arguable. Kobe definitely had more bounce (which to me was his only clear advantage athletically).

Again neither were athletic FREAKS, just very elite athletes.

Post #80 » by **NO-KG-AI** » Sun May 31, 2020 8:09 pm

Sign5 wrote:Wade may not have been as athletic as Rose or Westbrook but he used his athleticism to the max. A guy that was 6'4 but was routinely top 5 in total dunks each year of his prime (behind only top centers and Bron)

He was quicker, stronger and more explosive than Kobe. I'd say he had more body control too but that's arguable. Kobe definitely had more bounce (which to me was his only clear advantage athletically).

Again neither were athletic FREAKS, just very elite athletes.

Wade’s body strength made him way better at getting inside and finishing there than Rose or Westbrook. Their speed didn’t give them any advantages over Wade that were actually tangible.