Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

[nate33]

Center is the most important position for defense, and both Wagner and Bryant are bad, so what's the point of keeping either. Are all-offense centers worth anything? Or will we be stuck as a bottom 5 defense forever?

It's true that both Wagner and Bryant are bad defensively, but it's also true that most young centers are bad defensively. NBA defense is hard, particularly for centers, who have a lot of responsibility. Let's give them a little time to figure things out. I'm not yet convinced that they can never be good defenders. One thing I love about both guys is that they really seem to care. That's not always common among 7-footers - many of who play basketball because they're tall, not because they love the sport.

Ultimately, I do think Wagner and Bryant are somewhat redundant. I think eventually one of them will have to be moved and we will want to acquire a better rim-protector to pair with the other one. I'm just not sure who to move yet. Fortunately, we don't have to decide that right now. Let's let them both develop a bit more and then figure it out.

[Meliorus]

Center is the most important position for defense, and both Wagner and Bryant are bad, so what's the point of keeping either. Are all-offense centers worth anything? Or will we be stuck as a bottom 5 defense forever?

It's true that both Wagner and Bryant are bad defensively, but it's also true that most young centers are bad defensively. NBA defense is hard, particularly for centers, who have a lot of responsibility. Let's give them a little time to figure things out. I'm not yet convinced that they can never be good defenders. One thing I love about both guys is that they really seem to care. That's not always common among 7-footers - many of who play basketball because they're tall, not because they love the sport.

Ultimately, I do think Wagner and Bryant are somewhat redundant. I think eventually one of them will have to be moved and we will want to acquire a better rim-protector to pair with the other one. I'm just not sure who to move yet. Fortunately, we don't have to decide that right now. Let's let them both develop a bit more and then figure it out.

Do we have examples of young centers who figure it out after a couple years? I always feel like at that position a lot of the qualities (lateral quickness, defensive instincts for contesting and not fouling) come innately. I also feel like the young centers who were bad on defense stay bad on defense after many years.

[nate33]

Do we have examples of young centers who figure it out after a couple years? I always feel like at that position a lot of the qualities (lateral quickness, defensive instincts for contesting and not fouling) come innately. I also feel like the young centers who were bad on defense stay bad on defense after many years.

Brook Lopez, Domantas Sabonis, and Ayon Baynes come to mind. Were Bogut or Marc Gasol that good defensively when they first came into the league?

[gambitx777]

IT is definitely a. Option for teams like the Lakers. Portland , Boston and 76ers all could use another ball handler off the bench and there aren't going to be enough buy outs to go around.

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[nate33]

Do we have examples of young centers who figure it out after a couple years? I always feel like at that position a lot of the qualities (lateral quickness, defensive instincts for contesting and not fouling) come innately. I also feel like the young centers who were bad on defense stay bad on defense after many years.

I also wonder if either Rui or Bonga ultimately fill out enough to give us crunch time minutes at center. A lot of teams use a strong guy with PF size (Draymond, Adebayo, Harrell) as their crunch time center and then switch everything. Could Rui be that guy?

[gambitx777]

Birch , theis, both guys who are solid bigs that we had in our hands at one point or another. McGee who once looked like he was bound for China ended up a champ. I think bigs more than any other positions in the NBA are late bloomers a lot.

Do we have examples of young centers who figure it out after a couple years? I always feel like at that position a lot of the qualities (lateral quickness, defensive instincts for contesting and not fouling) come innately. I also feel like the young centers who were bad on defense stay bad on defense after many years.

I also wonder if either Rui or Bonga ultimately fill out enough to give us crunch time minutes at center. A lot of teams use a strong guy with PF size (Draymond, Adebayo, Harrell) as their crunch time center and then switch everything. Could Rui be that guy?

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[payitforward]

Rough week for IT. We traded hiim 2 days before his bobblehead night apparently. Then he goes to the Clippers thinking he might have a chance for a ring. Then he gets waived a day before his birthday.

I am glad we traded him and was definitely tired of watching him but cant help but feel a little sympathy for him. He must be pretty bummed right now. Just think about how much that injury in Boston cost him.

I wonder how prepared IT was for all this.

It wouldn't surprise me if management pulled him aside a few weeks ago and told him that they're shopping him and plan to move him at the Trade Deadline (or cut him if he can't be moved), but in the meantime they would continue to start him to give him a chance to showcase himself.

Almost certainly!

For the obvious reasons, but also because everybody sees everybody again, if you know what I mean. Above all, we're going to be dealing w/ IT's agent many times. Everybody knows it's a business, & that's the basis for decisions, but it's still always good to keep things friendly.

[payitforward]

...Ultimately, I do think Wagner and Bryant are somewhat redundant. I think eventually one of them will have to be moved and ....

You know my response, right...? Just get the largest number of plus players (guys who are more productive overall than would be expected for how much they make). The market will send buyers to your door. Trade the one that leaves you with the most value post-deal.

In the nature of things, just looking for the plus players will give you guys at all 5 spots. This isn't football; there aren't 26 positions to fill!

Basically, the only other mantra is "sell high." Failure to do that is the most common mistake we all make no matter what we are investing in. For that reason alone, we should have traded Bertans.

Of course, I don't mean "sell when high." You're liable to get taken.

[gambitx777]

I think it's very likely we move Bryant and maybe admiral to a team like Boston in the off-season. Once the picks are settled they toss us an extra first for him. And we move on with mo AP and our draft picks.

...Ultimately, I do think Wagner and Bryant are somewhat redundant. I think eventually one of them will have to be moved and ....

You know my response, right...? Just get the largest number of plus players (guys who are more productive overall than would be expected for how much they make). The market will send buyers to your door. Trade the one that leaves you with the most value post-deal.

In the nature of things, just looking for the plus players will give you guys at all 5 spots. This isn't football; there aren't 26 positions to fill!

Basically, the only other mantra is "sell high." Failure to do that is the most common mistake we all make no matter what we are investing in. For that reason alone, we should have traded Bertans.

Of course, I don't mean "sell when high." You're liable to get taken.

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[doclinkin]

Rough week for IT. We traded hiim 2 days before his bobblehead night apparently. Then he goes to the Clippers thinking he might have a chance for a ring. Then he gets waived a day before his birthday.

I am glad we traded him and was definitely tired of watching him but cant help but feel a little sympathy for him. He must be pretty bummed right now. Just think about how much that injury in Boston cost him.

I wonder how prepared IT was for all this.

It wouldn't surprise me if management pulled him aside a few weeks ago and told him that they're shopping him and plan to move him at the Trade Deadline (or cut him if he can't be moved), but in the meantime they would continue to start him to give him a chance to showcase himself.

I would not be surprised if they asked him which teams are on the short list where would like to be traded. Whether or not they chose to cut him. I bet former scout Tommy has a guy on every roster that he is keeping an eye on. Here he makes a highly respected veteran happy, makes friends with an agent, and gets a tryout for a prospect who has a reduced value. Wins all around.

[doclinkin]

Center is the most important position for defense, and both Wagner and Bryant are bad, so what's the point of keeping either. Are all-offense centers worth anything? Or will we be stuck as a bottom 5 defense forever?

It's true that both Wagner and Bryant are bad defensively, but it's also true that most young centers are bad defensively. NBA defense is hard, particularly for centers, who have a lot of responsibility. Let's give them a little time to figure things out. I'm not yet convinced that they can never be good defenders. One thing I love about both guys is that they really seem to care. That's not always common among 7-footers - many of who play basketball because they're tall, not because they love the sport.

Ultimately, I do think Wagner and Bryant are somewhat redundant. I think eventually one of them will have to be moved and we will want to acquire a better rim-protector to pair with the other one. I'm just not sure who to move yet. Fortunately, we don't have to decide that right now. Let's let them both develop a bit more and then figure it out.

Do we have examples of young centers who figure it out after a couple years? I always feel like at that position a lot of the qualities (lateral quickness, defensive instincts for contesting and not fouling) come innately. I also feel like the young centers who were bad on defense stay bad on defense after many years.

More importantly, how many truly skilled defensive centers are there who fit any scheme in the NBA nowadays?: Many teams have gone to lmg minutes of small ball since the skill set is so rare. Its been true that traditional big man play takes a while to learn. Now the position is even more complex. Players who came up learning to play with size suddenly have to adjust to chasing whippet quick guys out at the perimeter. When a guy like Rudy Gobert is unplayable for large chunks of the post season, and a team like the Rockets dump their only true Big and stay relevant, well, suffice to say things have changed.

Essentially what it means is that if we are going to play a traditional center like Bryant, we have to have rebounding, length, and switchability in all other positions. Let the Big Man play polka with the 3 second rule underneath, let everyone else try to blanket the perimeter. If the opposing big man wants to catapult from outside, let them. Don't chase. Stay at home and practice verticality and prowl the territory one or two quick steps from the cylinder. Then everyone else can box out or gang crash the rebound. We just don't have our Siakam or Kawhi to choke the perimeter atack and give our big time to recover. UNless Bonga stops fouling and speeds up a little.

[doclinkin]

Do we have examples of young centers who figure it out after a couple years? I always feel like at that position a lot of the qualities (lateral quickness, defensive instincts for contesting and not fouling) come innately. I also feel like the young centers who were bad on defense stay bad on defense after many years.

Brook Lopez, Domantas Sabonis, and Ayon Baynes come to mind. Were Bogut or Marc Gasol that good defensively when they first came into the league?

Marc was. But he had Euro play and international success before he came here. And grew up the son of pro players with an older brother who as already in the NBA. He understood positional defense inside and out. He has gotten better at the 'out' part as the league has forced him to. Most bigs step into the league and get crushed with fouls and goaltending calls though. Few defensive giants are immediately effective. Shaq and Timmy and the instant all stars who come in with a cache and reputation that brings respect and swallowed whistles.

[jangles86]

Joel Embiid for Bradley Beal and two 1sts

Who says no

[pcbothwel]

Joel Embiid for Bradley Beal and two 1sts

Who says no

Wizards...easy. Beal is a rock, physically and mentally. He's healthy, focused, and in shape. Those 3 things cant be said about Embiid. That plus the positional value makes it hard to say yes straight up... adding 2 first (One in the top 10 for sure) on top just makes it terrible.

[Ruzious]

Joel Embiid for Bradley Beal and two 1sts

Who says no

Wizards...easy. Beal is a rock, physically and mentally. He's healthy, focused, and in shape. Those 3 things cant be said about Embiid. That plus the positional value makes it hard to say yes straight up... adding 2 first (One in the top 10 for sure) on top just makes it terrible.

Embiid's health is so problematic... I'd probably pass, but I'd consider it.

[nate33]

I'd consider the trade straight up Beal for Embiid. But I absolutely would not include picks.

[gambitx777]

I've been really tossing around the idea of some kind of Bryant for turner swap . Bryant admiral and maybe Robinson if you really want the cap to be a bit closer. He replaces Ian as the big D guy on the team is 23 and yes a bit over paid. But he fits. We have the cap room to make up the difference either way, and we will resign bertains with bird rights. Then we just convert Mathews, resign shabazz (bi exception I imagine ) and our first and second round picks can replace Robinson and admiral. ? I know a lot of us wanna stick to hope that Bryant is going to wake up and be a terrific defender some day and I like him but idk. And that's all before we look at MLE guys. And we are comfortably under the tax still I think.

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[payitforward]

I'd consider the trade straight up Beal for Embiid. But I absolutely would not include picks.

Embiid is a wonderful player. I'd rather watch him then acquire him.

[nate33]

I've been really tossing around the idea of some kind of Bryant for turner swap . Bryant admiral and maybe Robinson if you really want the cap to be a bit closer. He replaces Ian as the big D guy on the team is 23 and yes a bit over paid. But he fits. We have the cap room to make up the difference either way, and we will resign bertains with bird rights. Then we just convert Mathews, resign shabazz (bi exception I imagine ) and our first and second round picks can replace Robinson and admiral. ? I know a lot of us wanna stick to hope that Bryant is going to wake up and be a terrific defender some day and I like him but idk. And that's all before we look at MLE guys. And we are comfortably under the tax still I think.

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Indiana has no reason to do this. They have Sabonis and Bitadze at center.

[gambitx777]

Exactly you trade down in price. But I get it they would be better off to trade him for awing

I've been really tossing around the idea of some kind of Bryant for turner swap . Bryant admiral and maybe Robinson if you really want the cap to be a bit closer. He replaces Ian as the big D guy on the team is 23 and yes a bit over paid. But he fits. We have the cap room to make up the difference either way, and we will resign bertains with bird rights. Then we just convert Mathews, resign shabazz (bi exception I imagine ) and our first and second round picks can replace Robinson and admiral. ? I know a lot of us wanna stick to hope that Bryant is going to wake up and be a terrific defender some day and I like him but idk. And that's all before we look at MLE guys. And we are comfortably under the tax still I think.

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Indiana has no reason to do this. They have Sabonis and Bitadze at center.

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