MJ VS LEBRON VS WHOEVER THREAD

[Ice Trae]

Stop showing off that you know how to count

[mixerball]

when will people realize its not the number but the way he did it. once he figured it out he snatched the soul out of everybody in the league and never let go. two three peats. it was lamost like everybody knew there was no chance to get a chip while he was playing.

[Pennebaker]

If we weigh championships by strength of opponents, Jordan's 6 titles wouldn't rank very highly.

1991 Lakers
1992 Blazers
1993 Suns
1996 Sonics
1997 Jazz
1998 Jazz

There are no all-time great teams here. The only opponent with Finals experience was the Kareem-less, injured Lakers and the 1998 Jazz, because of 1997.

The Blazers, Suns and Sonics were all relatively mediocre historically and each only had 1 hall of famer on the roster with a head coach that has also never won anything.

Compare that to this team:

2013 San Antonio Spurs

Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili
Kawhi Leonard

4 hall of famers + Pop + 4-0 Finals record.

That title alone is worth the Blazers, Suns and Sonics titles combined.

[KrisKringle]

Lebron's 2011 finals are probably the weakest NBA finals performance of any top 10 player of all time. It's almost unfathomable that the unquestioned best player in the game at the time put up the following en route to losing to a much less talented team in 6:

17.8 Pts (3rd on his own team), 7.2 rebounds, 6.8 assists on 54% TS

Game 4 stats: 8 points and 0 in the fourth quarter in a tight loss

To me, the 2011 finals alone disqualifies Lebron for GOAT contention. He's unquestionably one of the greatest players ever but with margin for error at the top so razor thin, this type of legendary meltdown is disqualifying.

By this logic Kobe is disqualified for his 2000 finals performance. Imagine if Lebron only scored 15pts a game on 36% shooting and went 12-47 in the last two games not to mention have a teammate average 38 pts in the series and be that incredibly dominant? Would any Lebron critic ever let him live that down?

Kobe is not even in the conversation for GOAT so there's a lot more than a single finals performance at age 21 disqualifying him. Aside from that, Kobe was certainly not the best player in the league in 2000. Not even close. Lebron was easily the best player in the league in 2011. He was in the heart of his prime and on an outrageously loaded team. It's a failure of legendary proportions on his resume that other top all time-players simply don't have.

To add some context:

Kobe's 2000 season:
WS/48: #8
BPM: #9
VORP: #11

Lebron's 2011 season:
WS/48: #1
BPM: #1
VORP: #1

Lebron was also #1 in all 3 categories in the two preceding seasons. He was absolutely dominant - it's baffling that he disappeared in those finals against a lesser team. He was the player most responsible for that failure.

[Myth]

Why is this obvious troll thread still not locked?

Because it is a relevant topic. Lebron gets beat up on here all the time for not having as many rings as Michael Jordan and sometimes even as many as Kobe yet if that is the case why isn't Bill Russell considered the greatest of all time for having as many rings as Kobe and Jordan combined?

Relevant topic that is not really approached as a genuine discussion by the OP. Seems to be a covert LeBron is better than Jordan thread and any point relating to Jordan being better is immediately dismissed.

[Lalouie]

all the arguments have been stated.
there's only just a repackaging of the arguments.

but to your point,,,that's why neither mj nor lebron are the goats

I feel you, what I was tryna get outta this topic was a real one to one with a die hard jordan fan with no emotion/nostalgia and just facts/stats why they came to their conclusion. I Definitely could’ve scrolled through the board and what not but I felt for rebuttals and open conversation it would’ve been better for me to just create a post.

I'm not a die hard Jordan fan but I can try:
The reason MJ has a great argument for GOAT is because he scores consistently and efficiently.
I believe that this is the most important factor for playoff success and it's more valuable than being an all around player who can elevate bad teams to good but doesn't exactly make good teams great. Also, he has been a no show in the past and that takes away from his consistency IMO. He's also been great sometimes but I feel Jordan has been more reliable in his career.

It's not a huge gap between them either way but there is definitely a good argument for MJ that isn't based on "rangzzz" or nostalgia.

most of the arguments, particularly with lebron, comes down to his skills and physical dominance versus the the hardware and end results. I'd say mj scores with a balance of both. i think lebron lovers mainly love his physical gifts and his haters question how he got there

that being said, i tend to go with legacy and impact on THE GAME, because numbers are a product of rules and zeitgeist and eras. and strangely almost no one talks about dominance in his time. i believe theres a metric for that. say, if a player averages 37ppg, how does that compare in eras where the league average is 16ppg and the next hi scorer is 26ppg versus a league average of 20ppg with twelve players averaging over 30ppg

[The Laker Kid]

Adam Morrison has more rings than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and Giannis combined.

[Metallikid]

also if we add higschool and college, bill russell was ALWAYS winning..

Dude literally won the olympics by a record margin, won b2b with a school that had never even made the ncaa, and topped it off by taking an average offense to the greatest dynasty ever.


All while fighting racism and breaking barriers for people of color everywhere. Jordan got shoe deals tho.

He learned how to block shots by reading it out of a book.

[Lalouie]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the real GOAT.

I think he's the goat because of the breadth of his impact.

Lewis alcindor was basketball's first idol. oscar made a lot of noise in high school but lew made the SI cover. he brought the game to television.

he was acknowledged as great through his high school, college, and procareer AND DELIVERED at every level with records and hardware. he was part of the college program that defined college basketball.

he is THE GOAT of college basketball

he made his voice heard off the court while in college and after

he turned teams around

he had the defining go to move of all time. the ncaa tried to stop him.

he was an all time great scorer and a great basketball athlete

[Young gun 6]

If we weigh championships by strength of opponents, Jordan's 6 titles wouldn't rank very highly.

1991 Lakers
1992 Blazers
1993 Suns
1996 Sonics
1997 Jazz
1998 Jazz

There are no all-time great teams here. The only opponent with Finals experience was the Kareem-less, injured Lakers and the 1998 Jazz, because of 1997.

The Blazers, Suns and Sonics were all relatively mediocre historically and each only had 1 hall of famer on the roster with a head coach that has also never won anything.

Compare that to this team:

2013 San Antonio Spurs

Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili
Kawhi Leonard

4 hall of famers + Pop + 4-0 Finals record.

That title alone is worth the Blazers, Suns and Sonics titles combined.

Shhh!!! You can’t use facts!

You know what that does to the Jordan stans..

[DoItALL9]

In the 1998 Finals, MJ avg. 4 boards and 2 assists and shot 42% in the 6 game series. How many of the top 10 superstars could lead their team to a title with such small numbers and low FG%?

Who was the teammate that brought it home for him?

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[DoItALL9]

This dude Jordan was getting guarded by Craig Ehlo who was 180 soak and wet. All this Jordan garbage is marketing even on YouTube they describe it as if he actually guarded Barkley,Bird, and Magic. Isiah was pushing his crap in for years and no one talks about it, it’s like Wilt said “They changed the rules to make it harder for me”, “They changed the rules to make it easier for you”. Like Bill Walton conversation over.

They created "illegal offense" rules in response to Jordan

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[KungFuJoe]

Jordan is the GOAT. And he's arguably the GOAT of all goats, when you consider the impact he had off the court in terms of universal appeal. I mean, he was so influential, he created a fashion trend that still exists to this day (baggy shorts). And every kid...I mean EVERY kid...wanted to be "like Mike". There hasn't been anyone like that since.

[Lowtech801]

News flash, Jordan didn’t play 6 years in the nba. People gotta stop using this 6/6 in their arguments. Just because you didn’t make the finals doesn’t mean you DIDNT lose. 6/15 is his actual record and even that being said can you have worse finals competition ? We leaving 6/6 in the last decade. This is the 1 argument people have for Jordan over bron and it’s expired. Lemme know when Jordan carries a team to the finals that has no business being there. I’m open to someone changing my mind about Lebron >jordan with a real argument. Until then lebron the goat and it’s not even close.


Edit: I see a lot of people saying lebron made 2 superteams. That’s probably what he was going for but that ain’t what he got. The heat were probably a super team for their first year after that wade was shot, missing 30-40% of regular season games and year 3/4 of that era averaging 16-17ppg in the playoffs. If that’s the second best player on your superteam that team ain’t so super lol. And we’ve seen the cavs recently whenever lebron would take a seat on the bench what the result of that team was. As for 2011, lebrons first year on “wades” team he let wade and bosh try and go get it they both shot more than him that series. Only after that summer when he said I got this is when they won, and people gotta stop downplaying the mavs that year, swept a back2back champ, beat the spurs, then okc in 5. Give them credit too.

You do realize that this makes Lebron look worse right? Jordan won the finals in 40% of his seasons while Lebron only 17%.

[Picasso]

Surprisingly, basketball didn't begin in the 90's. This feels relevant, considering that outside of his team's achievements, he's just Lebron without the sustained excellence.

Duncan and Kobe have 5. You can slot them in above Lebron also.

And Rober hurry has more than both of them while hitting clutch shots and multiple game winners to win those championships. Hurry was so great he won a championship for Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and Hakeem. Robert Horry, the G.O.AT.

[Repeat 3-peat]

If we weigh championships by strength of opponents, Jordan's 6 titles wouldn't rank very highly.

1991 Lakers
1992 Blazers
1993 Suns
1996 Sonics
1997 Jazz
1998 Jazz

There are no all-time great teams here. The only opponent with Finals experience was the Kareem-less, injured Lakers and the 1998 Jazz, because of 1997.

The Blazers, Suns and Sonics were all relatively mediocre historically and each only had 1 hall of famer on the roster with a head coach that has also never won anything.

Compare that to this team:

2013 San Antonio Spurs

Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili
Kawhi Leonard

4 hall of famers + Pop + 4-0 Finals record.

That title alone is worth the Blazers, Suns and Sonics titles combined.

Shhh!!! You can’t use facts!

You know what that does to the Jordan stans..

Facts?? He/she just said one title is better than 3 titles combined. So what facts? Do you struggle with math also?

Jordan won 3 in a row, twice. Now that is a worthy and legitimate fact.

[KungFuJoe]

Lebron would be 1 for 7 if not for Ray Allen hitting arguably the greatest clutch shot in Finals history. That game, Lebron went FULL ON choke mode in the 4th and was handing the game to the Spurs.

And the timely Draymond suspension and Curry getting injured in 2016. Bogut went down in Game 5 and Iggy's back was troubling him the entire series.

Lebron is one of the all time greats, but he always chose the path of least resistance. If he played out in the West, his overall playoff record would have looked a LOT different.

[lobosloboslobos]

Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not, not 6, not 7...

oh wait...

[Lalouie]

also if we add higschool and college, bill russell was ALWAYS winning..

well so did lew alcindor, and HE had to live up to expectations all the way through all three levels

[old skool]

Is there a non-legendary story about Michael? I've never heard one, everything about him is unbelievable.

His favorite meal was mac 'n cheese.

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