MJ VS LEBRON VS WHOEVER THREAD

[Danny1616]

FACTS
MJ is the GOAT

LeBron is right there in the discussions on who's the #2

Not really and a lot of smart people are in disagreement either way .If you want to understand the argument against MJ
Read this : https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/michael-jordan-lebron-james-nba-finals-playoffs-perfect-record-greatest-all-time-052617

Article was awful.

He's not the GOAT because he took 18 months off? That makes him look much better that he had a shorter career, took time off and still 3 peated again.

Then they said he also had Scottie Pippen. Well Lebron didn't win until he teamed up with Wade and Bosh and then Irving and Love.

Never faced a great adversary? Stockton and Malone were one of the greatest duo's in NBA history. Barkley, Johnson and Marjerle was a really good trio. Payton and Kemp were one of the best duo's of the 1990s. Magic, Divac, Worthy was still a great Lakers team in 1991.

Really weak arguments.

[Greyhound]

Let’s be honest, if Lebron played in the West, he’d max out at 5 finals appearances and that’s being generous

According to many, 3/5 (with a few first round exits) would have him looking better right now.

[freethedevil]

You made your point OP. Russell > KAJ > Jordan >>> Lebron.

Surprisingly, basketball didn't begin in the 90's. This feels relevant, considering that outside of his team's achievements, he's just Lebron without the sustained excellence.

Reading is good buddy.

[CS707]

This forum should just just make a few catch all threads and sticky them for housekeeping purposes.

[Capn'O]

Did it factor in "je ne sais quoi?"

[marcush]

Surprisingly, basketball didn't begin in the 90's. This feels relevant, considering that outside of his team's achievements, he's just Lebron without the sustained excellence.

Duncan and Kobe have 5. You can slot them in above Lebron also.

And Rober hurry has more than both of them while hitting clutch shots and multiple game winners to win those championships. Hurry was so great he won a championship for Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, and Hakeem. Robert Horry, the G.O.AT.

You rate Horry as GOAT. Good for you going against the usual nominations.

I personally wouldn’t rate a low usage role player like Horry in the same level as Duncan, Kobe etc but these ratings are obviously subjective. Each to their own.

[Johnny Fontane]

lol @ the OP

Seems like the occasional Lebron>MJ crowd is poking its head out of its hole to gauge how shot down they get yet again

3 for 9 & Dallas 2011 will always be the check mate in these arguments

[HMFFL]

FACTS
MJ is the GOAT

LeBron is right there in the discussions on who's the #2

Not really and a lot of smart people are in disagreement either way .If you want to understand the argument against MJ
Read this : https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/michael-jordan-lebron-james-nba-finals-playoffs-perfect-record-greatest-all-time-052617

Very bad article but everyone has their opinion.

"He took 18 months off between threepeats

I understand that riding on buses with the Birmingham Barons isn't exactly a resort vacation, especially when you're processing the tragic death of your father, but it is a lot easier on the body than having guys like Charles Oakley sending you crashing to the hardwood a half-dozen times per game, 82 times a year."

The writer mentions the defense Jordan faced was overrated yet paragraphs later in the article says the above. Superstars rarely get hard contact in today's game.



Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

[mediocrityrules]

Read the OP again and try thinking this time.

Just trying to point out the idiocy of the OP using such simple measures,

What simple measures? You realize there was a post under the op?

The argument wasn't "rings=great", it was there's two greater winners(who also have comparable or MUUCH better indubidual accolades).


Whether you agree or not, "Jordan is Lebron without the sustained excellence" isn't some tirade about winning.

Your argument, to begin with, is that Jordan is not the greatest because ringzzzz. Pretty simple. The counter to that being that it would put guys who were just in fortunate situations like Horry being better than someone like Jordan. Personally I don't have Jordan or LBJ as the greatest, but through this thread you seem to waver between the greatest = championships, versus the greatest = championships + individual awards + intangibles (e.g., social impact etc).

Like it or not, Jordan played in an era where promotion of basketball worldwide skyrocketed, and his impact goes far beyond the basketball court because of it. Whether the conversation stays confined to the court, or extends to include social impact, you're likely to get different outcomes when comparing lists.

[mediocrityrules]

Just trying to point out the idiocy of the OP using such simple measures,

What simple measures? You realize there was a post under the op?

The argument wasn't "rings=great", it was there's two greater winners(who also have comparable or MUUCH better indubidual accolades).


Whether you agree or not, "Jordan is Lebron without the sustained excellence" isn't some tirade about winning.

Your argument, to begin with, is that Jordan is not the greatest because ringzzzz. Pretty simple. The counter to that being that it would put guys who were just in fortunate situations like Horry being better than someone like Jordan. Personally I don't have Jordan or LBJ as the greatest, but through this thread you seem to waver between the greatest = championships, versus the greatest = championships + individual awards + intangibles (e.g., social impact etc).

Like it or not, Jordan played in an era where promotion of basketball worldwide skyrocketed, and his impact goes far beyond the basketball court because of it. Whether the conversation stays confined to the court, or extends to include social impact, you're likely to get different outcomes when comparing lists, and unless you define the parameters, these threads will always skew in different directions than where you intend them to go.

[Lockdown504090]

News flash, Jordan didn’t play 6 years in the nba. People gotta stop using this 6/6 in their arguments. Just because you didn’t make the finals doesn’t mean you DIDNT lose. 6/15 is his actual record and even that being said can you have worse finals competition ? We leaving 6/6 in the last decade. This is the 1 argument people have for Jordan over bron and it’s expired. Lemme know when Jordan carries a team to the finals that has no business being there. I’m open to someone changing my mind about Lebron >jordan with a real argument. Until then lebron the goat and it’s not even close.


Edit: I see a lot of people saying lebron made 2 superteams. That’s probably what he was going for but that ain’t what he got. The heat were probably a super team for their first year after that wade was shot, missing 30-40% of regular season games and year 3/4 of that era averaging 16-17ppg in the playoffs. If that’s the second best player on your superteam that team ain’t so super lol. And we’ve seen the cavs recently whenever lebron would take a seat on the bench what the result of that team was. As for 2011, lebrons first year on “wades” team he let wade and bosh try and go get it they both shot more than him that series. Only after that summer when he said I got this is when they won, and people gotta stop downplaying the mavs that year, swept a back2back champ, beat the spurs, then okc in 5. Give them credit too.

would your opinion be different on this is the east was stronger and lebron lost in earlier rounds in 2007, 2017 and 2015? making him 3/3? isnt that still not as good as 6/6? then why does it matter than jordan lost in earlier rounds sometimes, he still has six. The better argument is that the bulls were supposed to win almost every finals they were in...... but thats also due to being in the tougher conference.

[so_bored]

I feel bad for freethedevil.

Jordan must have caused him nightmares in the 90's.

Nah, you can tell he is just a kid at a puberty stage and have never witnessed Jordan play. He is just a star worshiping kid. Only kids during puberty uses names like "devil" because they think it's cool to be evil at that age. Another clue is his use of emoticons especially eye rolling one. No sane adult would use that over and over.

[mixerball]

ofcourse there is a mandatory "and its not even close" included lol

[Fencer reregistered]

Im sure MJ and Lebron would both have more rings if they played in an 8 team league where most of the talent was concentrated onto 1 team.

So would Russell, had he played in that fictional universe.

Well, 1 or 2 more championships.

[Alatan]

While I disagree with that posts valuations, your retort is nonsense. Of course overall playoff success matters.

There is no trophy for 2nd place in the NBA so it is not nonsense.
Playoff success matters but the more removed you are from 1st place the more your success is tainted by favorable matchups, weak opponents, luck etc.

The NBA championship is a team award. Individual success and effectiveness is inferred from it, but Jordan isn't winning a single championship without a solid team around him. We're not talking about team accolades here though. We're talking about Jordan's legacy as it relates to playoff success, and the legacy of other greats as it relates to playoff success. There seems to be some confusion on these points.

Let's just say that one GOAT level player has a 4/10 finals record and made the playoffs 10 times. Let's say another GOAT level player has a 4/4 finals record and made the playoffs 10 times. Let's just say that there regular season accomplishments and level of play, and their level of competition was thought of as mostly equivalent, and that both runs were back to backs separated by a year of losing in the playoffs, so that we can eliminate some variables. It is COMPLETELY INARGUABLE that the first players success was more impressive, and/or better. There is NO ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER that gives player number 2 the upper hand here.

That is the entirety of my point. I'm Jordan over Lebron. But I also don't like to see the 6/6 finals record as a sort of bludgeon used against anybody who questions Jordan. If some great player in the future is 6/7 in the finals, We'll see the same ****. We'll see people use that against him as some sort of ridiculous implied statement that if you want to be the GOAT, make sure to exit the playoffs earlier than the finals if you're not the best team in the NBA.

Im not arguing that 4/10 is worse that 4/4 im arguing that 3 championships is better than 6 finals appearances. And i dont know if we can ever quantify how many 2nd places are worth a championship.

[TheGOATRises007]

I feel bad for freethedevil.

Jordan must have caused him nightmares in the 90's.

I feel bad for eddy jukes. Freethedevil still causes nightmares for him in the 2020's

What kind of comeback is that?

You got to spell the name right and some random poster on the internet isn't causing anyone nightmares.

[SecondTake]

6-0 is the only fact you need. It ends any debate and will for the rest of time.

In the world where jordan fans concede he can only ever be the third greatest? Yes. If not, the stats are the only thing saving him against russell or kareem.

I didn't realize internally consistent logic was so triggering to mj--truthers

Wrong, what matters is your finals to FMVP ratio. If ratio is equal player with more FMVP wins. That's why MJ is the greatest. You can't counter that argument because its air tight.

[stormi]

Spoiler:

Is there a non-legendary story about Michael? I've never heard one, everything about him is unbelievable.

let's see, scored 5 total points at the 3 point contest at the all star game

1-9 in round 1 without Pippen

complained to the league and got the 3 point line moved closer for a year

sonned hard by Bird, Magic, Hakeem

his superteam still won 50 games post his retirement

[Goudelock]

If y'all make another thread about who the GOAT is, I'm just throwing it in here. We don't need four threads about LeBron vs MJ vs whoever.

[Prokorov]

Im sure MJ and Lebron would both have more rings if they played in an 8 team league where most of the talent was concentrated onto 1 team.

So would Russell, had he played in that fictional universe.

Well, 1 or 2 more championships.

he did. in '57 there were 8 teams. 5 of them with losing records. only one team over .550