MJ VS LEBRON VS WHOEVER THREAD

[trueballer7]

One major strike against MJ that isn't brought up with the constant "Lebron played with superteam" argument is Jordan's team won 55 games without him. Lebron's supposed super team missed the playoffs without him in 2015. It is a myth those Heat teams were a better supporting cast than what MJ had.

Yeah yeah its a myth alright, Steve Kerr "So the second year, we sign Harper and he didnt fit in at all. He was struggling. We still had BJ and Pete Myers. We won fifty five-fifty seven games, or whatever it was. We played the triangle extremely well. Kukoc was great. We sort of all fit into our roles. I think there was a lot of leftover magic from Michaels' presence. Even though he wasnt playing for us, there was still an aura about the team. And Scottie had an amazing year. But the second year, that wore off. And the lack of talent started to come through".
Enter a 33 year old MJ. Three peat

The second year they lost Horace Grant. That was the major difference. Jordan came back that year but with no 3rd star, they lost to the Magic in 6.

Enter a 34 year old Rodman. Three peat.

LOVE IT! So ...Horace Grant was Bulls' third star and all it took for MJ to three peat with that team was the addition of a 34 year old sf turned pf, Rodman, who couldnt three peat in his absolute prime as the 5th, 6th best player of the Pistons. L O V E I T!

[Triples333]

That's cool. Pippen was a better passer.

I'm happy to know you know think Lebron is a comparable scorer to jordan since his 09 playoff scoring blows anything jordan's ever done out of the water.

LOL wait what? 'Bron put up an efficient 35 PPG for 14 games before being knocked out in 6 games to a Magic team that got beat down in the Finals. It was an impressive little run for him. MJ put up an efficient 35 PPG average for 4 straights SEASONS at one point (36 PPG in the playoffs during that span).

MJ had 11 full seasons for Chicago and led the NBA in scoring in 10 of them, including leading all scorers in the playoffs 10 times. His lowest playoff PPG was 29.3 in his first trip to the post-season, which is still higher than 'Bron's playoff career average.

Scoring inflation. Jordan’s early years were played at an even higher pace than the games today. You can’t compare how many points someone scores in 125-120 games to what they score in 100-98 games. Also, LeBron dominated in every other facet of the game that playoffs in 2009.

See my previous post. Per 100 possessions, Jordan is still the clearly better scorer. And are you insinuating MJ could not also do it all? He had a 8 year playoff run in the 80's and 90's where he averaged 35/7/7 + 2.5 steals and 1 block on 50/36/84 as a DPOY defender.

[trueballer7]

We don't have any relevant games from Wilt after he won, we simply don't have anything from him basically. Any footage would help his case tremendously. We could see his defense, post game, rebounding, unreal athleticism... if you think that wouldn't help him you're insane.

Russell wasn't best individually because he wasn't great scorer? Do you know there is more in basketball than scoring, right?

Sure, Magic and Bird were better than 35+years old Kareem. They never approached dominance of 1970s Jabbar though. They won a lot because they had great teams, Magic wasn't even better than Jabbar in some 1980s seasons.

Then why Kareem, Shaq, Russell and Wilt raised celling to GOAT-level in various occasions? Hakeem is there too and he's not different than them.

You seem to care only about scoring/offense while completely forgetting how important defense and rebounding are. Russell anchored many better defense than any of Jordan's offenses. Is this not a celling raiser?

Xcuse me, way I remember it, Bulls were primarily a defensive team and Jordan was a big, big, part of that, although a guard. But you see the sophism in this? Why do you make it binary? I talked about a team ceiling raiser, not an offense or a defense.
Everything matters, and Jordan excelled at everything anyway, being the most profound example of a player getting the best out his team whilst dominating individually, which none other player can boast, at least to that level. And if you are to cut it in even smaller pieces, considering whether a 6'6' two guard was supposed to lead championship teams, whether scoring champions were supposed to lead championship teams etc etc etc, all the little details, one by one, especially as where seen at the time when he was doing his thing. Not only did he do, what was not supposed to happen at all but he did it with a consistency, that far exceeds those who had the advantage over him physically
Jordan, and Bird, Magic and Hakeem to an extent, are handbooks of how to maximize your potential as a basketball player, part of a basketball team, regardless of your size or athletic attributes. That doesnt mean, that if you dont have Hakeem's size or Birds's size etc, you're gonna be as good, but watching them both inspires the correct way to compete, to improve, to lead and extends your knowledge of whats possible and of how to play the game.
I'd throw Russell in there, but he lacked the offensive arsenal which made him too depended on his teamates on that part.
Every other player thats considered great, you can marvel at this or that, but take away their natural attributes and they are no more than good players. Which is why, they had weaknesses that could be consistently targetted and exploited in big games and called for very specific supporting casts around them.

Wait, do you really think that Magic's or Bird's relative weakness on defensive side of the ball doesn't make them too depended on their teammates?

What exactly makes Hakeem better in what you said that Kareem? He's not more skilled in the post, he's far worse passer and he's just as athletic as Jabbar. You can make a case for someone like Duncan doing that but Hakeem? This guy used athleticism to his advantage as much as any other center.

If you want to call GOAT player, who is not dependable on his natural abilities, then pick Chris Paul or Steve Nash. Because Jordan without his athleticism wouldn't be close to GOAT.

Wrong, Hakeem was more skilled, more versatile in the post than Jabbar and a far better team player in the sense of doing exactly what his team needed, in every facet of the game.
Jordan, wasnt more athletic than Drexler or Dominique or Vince Carter or large number of players. It was what he did with that athleticism that set him appart. The craftiness, the imagination. You watch Jordan, you learn how post up bigger players, how to beat the double, tripple, quadraple team, how to play off the ball, how to shoot over taller guys, how to avoid multiple bodies on air by contorting your body, how to beat a screen defensively, how to defend a taller guy by trying to block him from the rear or by dislodging the ball from his hands as he rises, how to get to your spots and not let defense bully you etc etc etc. You play like him, you are immediately levels higher that you were supposed to be. We know that already, about 40 Jordan clones have entered the league since he appeared, one of them reached the very top of basketball world for some time, several others were franchise players. What can Lebron teach you? There's nothing that he does, thats in itself exceptional. He does several things acceptably, some very good -with others being better- but in a big big body. It will not do you any good, playing like Lebron if you dont enjoy that level of physical dominance over others and even that is debatable. The man cant be trusted to post up Curry for Gods' shake, with the game on the line.

[70sFan]

Wrong, Hakeem was more skilled, more versatile in the post than Jabbar and a far better team player in the sense of doing exactly what his team needed, in every facet of the game.

How was he more versatile in the post? Kareem was better passer, had more efficient moves and could beat fronting easier. He was better scorer and playmaker from the post, how was Hakeem better?

How was he far better team player when he was worse passer and more ball-dominant? Hakeem did two things and did then exceptionally well - defend and score. He was never asked to do anything else, so don't act like he could contribute in every other aspect of the game more than Jabbar.

Also - if you want to learn how to score from watching tapes, watch Adrian Dantley. You'll learn far more from guy beating any type of defense when this guy don't have freakish athleticism like Jordan. You can watch MJ all you want, but you won't replicate his moves on basketball court. Dantley was more fundamentally sound scorer who didn't rely on quickness, jumping ability or extraordinary pull-up shot.

It doesn't mean that Jordan wasn't skilled, he was one of the most skilled players ever but his skills won't translate to unathletic player.

[iggymcfrack]

Yeah yeah its a myth alright, Steve Kerr "So the second year, we sign Harper and he didnt fit in at all. He was struggling. We still had BJ and Pete Myers. We won fifty five-fifty seven games, or whatever it was. We played the triangle extremely well. Kukoc was great. We sort of all fit into our roles. I think there was a lot of leftover magic from Michaels' presence. Even though he wasnt playing for us, there was still an aura about the team. And Scottie had an amazing year. But the second year, that wore off. And the lack of talent started to come through".
Enter a 33 year old MJ. Three peat

The second year they lost Horace Grant. That was the major difference. Jordan came back that year but with no 3rd star, they lost to the Magic in 6.

Enter a 34 year old Rodman. Three peat.

LOVE IT! So ...Horace Grant was Bulls' third star and all it took for MJ to three peat with that team was the addition of a 34 year old sf turned pf, Rodman, who couldnt three peat in his absolute prime as the 5th, 6th best player of the Pistons. L O V E I T!

LOL @ Rodman being the 5th or 6th best player on the Pistons. WTF! He was the best or second best. And those Pistons won back-to-back titles over prime Jordan because Pippen and Grant hadn’t fully matured into 2nd and 3rd stars yet.

[trueballer7]

The second year they lost Horace Grant. That was the major difference. Jordan came back that year but with no 3rd star, they lost to the Magic in 6.

Enter a 34 year old Rodman. Three peat.

LOVE IT! So ...Horace Grant was Bulls' third star and all it took for MJ to three peat with that team was the addition of a 34 year old sf turned pf, Rodman, who couldnt three peat in his absolute prime as the 5th, 6th best player of the Pistons. L O V E I T!

LOL @ Rodman being the 5th or 6th best player on the Pistons. WTF! He was the best or second best. And those Pistons won back-to-back titles over prime Jordan because Pippen and Grant hadn’t fully matured into 2nd and 3rd stars yet.

Yeah WTF! Perhaps he was the best, better than Isiah.

[iggymcfrack]

LOL wait what? 'Bron put up an efficient 35 PPG for 14 games before being knocked out in 6 games to a Magic team that got beat down in the Finals. It was an impressive little run for him. MJ put up an efficient 35 PPG average for 4 straights SEASONS at one point (36 PPG in the playoffs during that span).

MJ had 11 full seasons for Chicago and led the NBA in scoring in 10 of them, including leading all scorers in the playoffs 10 times. His lowest playoff PPG was 29.3 in his first trip to the post-season, which is still higher than 'Bron's playoff career average.

Scoring inflation. Jordan’s early years were played at an even higher pace than the games today. You can’t compare how many points someone scores in 125-120 games to what they score in 100-98 games. Also, LeBron dominated in every other facet of the game that playoffs in 2009.

See my previous post. Per 100 possessions, Jordan is still the clearly better scorer. And are you insinuating MJ could not also do it all? He had a 8 year playoff run in the 80's and 90's where he averaged 35/7/7 + 2.5 steals and 1 block on 50/36/84 as a DPOY defender.

The post before you was specifically referring to the 2009 LeBron run and saying it was better from a scoring standpoint that any MJ run which is factual. The only time Jordan scored that much per 100 possessions was in a 3-game sweep.

And MJ was certainly a fantastic all-around player. That’s why he’s my #2 all-time. But if you break him down compared to LeBron, he’s not quite as elite as a passer and rebounder, no. And he certainly never had an all-around run like LeBron in 2009.

[trueballer7]

Wrong, Hakeem was more skilled, more versatile in the post than Jabbar and a far better team player in the sense of doing exactly what his team needed, in every facet of the game.

How was he more versatile in the post? Kareem was better passer, had more efficient moves and could beat fronting easier. He was better scorer and playmaker from the post, how was Hakeem better?

How was he far better team player when he was worse passer and more ball-dominant? Hakeem did two things and did then exceptionally well - defend and score. He was never asked to do anything else, so don't act like he could contribute in every other aspect of the game more than Jabbar.

Also - if you want to learn how to score from watching tapes, watch Adrian Dantley. You'll learn far more from guy beating any type of defense when this guy don't have freakish athleticism like Jordan. You can watch MJ all you want, but you won't replicate his moves on basketball court. Dantley was more fundamentally sound scorer who didn't rely on quickness, jumping ability or extraordinary pull-up shot.

It doesn't mean that Jordan wasn't skilled, he was one of the most skilled players ever but his skills won't translate to unathletic player.

Dantley was a monster. Always loved his effortless excellence. Not being able to be Jordan, doesnt mean that you will not benefit from emulating his game as much as you can.
Hakeem was a complete player and went further than that even, both offensively and defensively. He could fill holes, that big players dont normally fill, in order to get the best out of the collective

[70sFan]

Wrong, Hakeem was more skilled, more versatile in the post than Jabbar and a far better team player in the sense of doing exactly what his team needed, in every facet of the game.

How was he more versatile in the post? Kareem was better passer, had more efficient moves and could beat fronting easier. He was better scorer and playmaker from the post, how was Hakeem better?

How was he far better team player when he was worse passer and more ball-dominant? Hakeem did two things and did then exceptionally well - defend and score. He was never asked to do anything else, so don't act like he could contribute in every other aspect of the game more than Jabbar.

Also - if you want to learn how to score from watching tapes, watch Adrian Dantley. You'll learn far more from guy beating any type of defense when this guy don't have freakish athleticism like Jordan. You can watch MJ all you want, but you won't replicate his moves on basketball court. Dantley was more fundamentally sound scorer who didn't rely on quickness, jumping ability or extraordinary pull-up shot.

It doesn't mean that Jordan wasn't skilled, he was one of the most skilled players ever but his skills won't translate to unathletic player.

Dantley was a monster. Always loved his effortless excellence. Not being able to be Jordan, doesnt mean that you will not benefit from emulating his game as much as you can.
Hakeem was a complete player and went further than that even, both offensively and defensively. He could fill holes, that big players dont normally fill, in order to get the best out of the collective

For the first time we agree - Dantley was amazing to watch

I don't even understand what you mean in Kareem-Hakeem comparison to be honest... Maybe it's because English is not my native language, but I don't think that's the problem. What holes could Hakeem fill that Kareem couldn't? Again - what makes Hakeem better post player than Kareem? Jabbar was just as skilled and he was more effective with his skillset. Maybe you are talking about your personal aesthetic feelings, but this is not an argument for someone being better.

[Galloisdaman]

News flash, Jordan didn’t play 6 years in the nba. People gotta stop using this 6/6 in their arguments. Just because you didn’t make the finals doesn’t mean you DIDNT lose. 6/15 is his actual record and even that being said can you have worse finals competition ? We leaving 6/6 in the last decade. This is the 1 argument people have for Jordan over bron and it’s expired. Lemme know when Jordan carries a team to the finals that has no business being there. I’m open to someone changing my mind about Lebron >jordan with a real argument. Until then lebron the goat and it’s not even close.


Edit: I see a lot of people saying lebron made 2 superteams. That’s probably what he was going for but that ain’t what he got. The heat were probably a super team for their first year after that wade was shot, missing 30-40% of regular season games and year 3/4 of that era averaging 16-17ppg in the playoffs. If that’s the second best player on your superteam that team ain’t so super lol. And we’ve seen the cavs recently whenever lebron would take a seat on the bench what the result of that team was. As for 2011, lebrons first year on “wades” team he let wade and bosh try and go get it they both shot more than him that series. Only after that summer when he said I got this is when they won, and people gotta stop downplaying the mavs that year, swept a back2back champ, beat the spurs, then okc in 5. Give them credit too.

You say Jordan only won 6 finals? Lemme know when Lebron wins 6 finals.

Lemme me know the next season Lebron even shoots 70% from the FT line.

Lemme know when Lebron wins DPOY.

Lemme know when Lebron is the guy you want to be taking the key shot down by 2 in a finals.

Lemme know when Jordan left his team to go ring chasing.

[freethedevil]

Now adjust for pace. And look at the comment i repsonded to. If jordan is a comprable passer to lebron, than consistent logic dictates lebron is a better scorer than jordan.

It was an impressive 47.5 per 100 possession average from LBJ in that little run (just shy of what Jordan averaged in the playoffs against the 86 Celtics, one of the GOAT Defenses/Teams,

Just shy on hilariously better effiency.

Scoreval(bpm's scoring components for) puts jordan's best scoring run in the playoffs at +5, it puts lebron's scoring in 09 at +9.

It really is simple, if jordan's assist totals at the end of the 1989 season mean he wasn't a far worse passer than lebron, then the 09 season means lebron's a much better scorer. Either use small samples or don't.

[Triples333]

Scoring inflation. Jordan’s early years were played at an even higher pace than the games today. You can’t compare how many points someone scores in 125-120 games to what they score in 100-98 games. Also, LeBron dominated in every other facet of the game that playoffs in 2009.

See my previous post. Per 100 possessions, Jordan is still the clearly better scorer. And are you insinuating MJ could not also do it all? He had a 8 year playoff run in the 80's and 90's where he averaged 35/7/7 + 2.5 steals and 1 block on 50/36/84 as a DPOY defender.

The post before you was specifically referring to the 2009 LeBron run and saying it was better from a scoring standpoint that any MJ run which is factual. The only time Jordan scored that much per 100 possessions was in a 3-game sweep.

And MJ was certainly a fantastic all-around player. That’s why he’s my #2 all-time. But if you break him down compared to LeBron, he’s not quite as elite as a passer and rebounder, no. And he certainly never had an all-around run like LeBron in 2009.

No, what was said was "Lebron's scoring in 2009 blows anything Jordan has done out of the water". It's an absurd comment seeing as MJ had scoring near that level for YEARS on end, including one upping it in the series against the Celtics (so no, it is factually untrue).

And lol Jordan has multiple runs better than Lebron in 09. The guy was leading a 66 win team with HCA in the East, and got outplayed by D Howard and his Magic squad (most notably in the closeout game) that would go on to get steamrolled by the Lakers in the next series. There's much more than just stats that go into being a champion, and Lebron did not have that yet in Cleveland. There was no excuse for getting so vastly outplayed by Dwight and the Magic in that game 6. He gave up, as he did against Boston and Dallas. Needed to go join a champion in Miami to learn what it took.

[subbed sub]

Michael Olowokandi

[bakafool]

Lebron is the GOAT at asking for help. Can't beat that.

[Triples333]

Now adjust for pace. And look at the comment i repsonded to. If jordan is a comprable passer to lebron, than consistent logic dictates lebron is a better scorer than jordan.

It was an impressive 47.5 per 100 possession average from LBJ in that little run (just shy of what Jordan averaged in the playoffs against the 86 Celtics, one of the GOAT Defenses/Teams,

Just shy on hilariously better effiency.

Scoreval(bpm's scoring components for) puts jordan's best scoring run in the playoffs at +5, it puts lebron's scoring in 09 at +9.

It really is simple, if jordan's assist totals at the end of the 1989 season mean he wasn't a far worse passer than lebron, then the 09 season means lebron's a much better scorer. Either use small samples or don't.

"Hilariously better efficiency" lmao. 58.4% TS to 61.8% TS. That's nothing, especially at a time before 3pt shooting was a thing and the league average was 28% from range.

Lebron is a better passer than MJ and I never said otherwise. You are using a strawman from an argument I did not even make. But I can tell you for sure that Lebron is not on MJ's level as a scorer. Never was, never will be. And Jordan's stats only got bigger and more efficient the closer he got to the Finals. Same can't always be said for Ol' Bronnie.

[daswunderboy]

Looking more, i think MVP voting should be a good basis for this. Jordan won 5, was clearly robbed a few other times (92/93 when Barkley won, 96/97 when Malone won). 5 wins, 3 2nd place, 2 3rds. 6 finals MVP's.

Lebron, 4 MVP. 3 2nd place. 3 finals MVPs.

Kobe won once. He came in 2nd 1 time. I'm cutting it off there because looking at the 3rd or 4th place finishes for Kobe you see he got like 1 first place vote, whereas Jordan was splitting first place votes. 2004/05 Kobe wasn't even in the top 14 of MVP voting. (hell, in one of Kobe's 2nd place years he only got 2 1st place votes!). Kobe also won finals MVP 2 times.

Let's be real, Kobe isn't in the conversation with Lebron and Michael. Magic has more case. Bird has more case. Kareem has much more of a case (6 MPV, 1 2nd place. 2 finals MVP's.) Hell, Shaq has more of a case, winning 1 MVP, finishing 2nd twice, and 3 finals MVPs, all when Kobe was on his team (Shaq averaged an ungodly 35.7 pts and 14.9 rebounds over those 3 finals he won the MVP. Oh, and 3 blocks.)

Kobe was a fine player, but can we stop putting him in conversations he really doesn't belong in? GOAT is out of his league.

[yesh]

News flash, Jordan didn’t play 6 years in the nba. People gotta stop using this 6/6 in their arguments. Just because you didn’t make the finals doesn’t mean you DIDNT lose. 6/15 is his actual record and even that being said can you have worse finals competition ? We leaving 6/6 in the last decade. This is the 1 argument people have for Jordan over bron and it’s expired. Lemme know when Jordan carries a team to the finals that has no business being there. I’m open to someone changing my mind about Lebron >jordan with a real argument. Until then lebron the goat and it’s not even close.


Edit: I see a lot of people saying lebron made 2 superteams. That’s probably what he was going for but that ain’t what he got. The heat were probably a super team for their first year after that wade was shot, missing 30-40% of regular season games and year 3/4 of that era averaging 16-17ppg in the playoffs. If that’s the second best player on your superteam that team ain’t so super lol. And we’ve seen the cavs recently whenever lebron would take a seat on the bench what the result of that team was. As for 2011, lebrons first year on “wades” team he let wade and bosh try and go get it they both shot more than him that series. Only after that summer when he said I got this is when they won, and people gotta stop downplaying the mavs that year, swept a back2back champ, beat the spurs, then okc in 5. Give them credit too.

You say Jordan only won 6 finals? Lemme know when Lebron wins 6 finals.

Lemme me know the next season Lebron even shoots 70% from the FT line.

Lemme know when Lebron wins DPOY.

Lemme know when Lebron is the guy you want to be taking the key shot down by 2 in a finals.

Lemme know when Jordan left his team to go ring chasing.

*Teams

[OdomFan]

It amazes me how underrated Michael Jordan's passing ability still is. The guy had fantastic court vision. Could pull off passes just as creative as both Magic and Bird, and they very rarely didn't get to the teammate he was aiming to get the ball to.

[rzzzzz]

Russell competed for 2 NCAA titles and won both. he competed for an Olympic title as an "amateur", which he won. he competed for 13 NBA titles. lost one because of injury, and knocked out once by a fantastic Sixers squad. won the other 11. at worst he's 11 for 13. at best 14 for 16. do you think his team mates carried him the whole way? a 12 time all star, 5 time mvp? he is the GOAT for all team sports because of attributes that don't readily show up as stats, or even video highlights. smarts, toughness. he was just the best competitor out on the court every time he played. look, i'm an old Philly fan. Russell was the enemy. I hated the Celtics. but to appreciate what a complete warrior the guy was is to see the game beyond stats or a few flashy highlights. now i really love the show ponies. Wilt, Doc, Iverson. thoroughly enjoyed their exhibition of superhuman athleticism. but i know a winner when i see one. (MJ and LeBron are winners.)

[daswunderboy]

Yeah yeah its a myth alright, Steve Kerr "So the second year, we sign Harper and he didnt fit in at all. He was struggling. We still had BJ and Pete Myers. We won fifty five-fifty seven games, or whatever it was. We played the triangle extremely well. Kukoc was great. We sort of all fit into our roles. I think there was a lot of leftover magic from Michaels' presence. Even though he wasnt playing for us, there was still an aura about the team. And Scottie had an amazing year. But the second year, that wore off. And the lack of talent started to come through".
Enter a 33 year old MJ. Three peat

The second year they lost Horace Grant. That was the major difference. Jordan came back that year but with no 3rd star, they lost to the Magic in 6.

Enter a 34 year old Rodman. Three peat.

LOVE IT! So ...Horace Grant was Bulls' third star and all it took for MJ to three peat with that team was the addition of a 34 year old sf turned pf, Rodman, who couldnt three peat in his absolute prime as the 5th, 6th best player of the Pistons. L O V E I T!

And Jordan came back with 17 games to go in the season, hardly game shape, so it's strange to say that the difference was Horace Grant.

94/95 Jordan who only played 17 games in the regular season shot .431 EFG%. 95/96 he was back at .525. his 94/95 numbers were easily the worst of his career (ignoring his Wizards years). His Bulls EFG% for his career was .518. His FT% was also 3% points below his average, 80% compared to 83%. He just wasn't "Jordan" in that short season joining the team late in the year.