jamaalstar21 wrote:And Zion so far sucks on defense...
Based on what?
Moderators: ken6199, Dirk, bisme37, KingDavid, bwgood77, zimpy27, cupcakesnake, Domejandro, infinite11285, Harry Garris
jamaalstar21 wrote:And Zion so far sucks on defense...
Doctor MJ wrote:I don't understand why people jump in a thread and say basically, "This thing you're all talking about. I'm too ignorant to know anything about it. Lollerskates!"
syntax wrote:lordjeff05 wrote:Embiid is a beast on defense but he suffers from the same issue that Rudy Gobert has. Neither player is comfortable guarding out on the perimeter. That leaves them susceptible to stretch bigs and guards who can create their own perimeter shot off the dribble. If you force them to switch, they are in trouble.
Hangon, you're saying that because Gobert blocks 2 shots a game and have the Jazz 8th in defensive rating (Sixers are 4th in defensive rating) that these big men are somehow a liability to their team on defense?
jamaalstar21 wrote:fianchetto wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:Embiid has not improved at all in his 4 years in the league. He's a nimble, athletic giant with a decent defensive motor, which makes him automatically one one of the best defensive players in the NBA. On offense, despite the size/athleticism, mobility and feathery touch... he still has no idea how to attack a defense. He's a post player that shoots 46% from the floor (same number as his rookie season). He hasn't improved as a passer. He's a little more effective in the mid-post this year. He looks pretty clueless with the ball in his hands. When he's not athletically dominating people, or on fire, he looks like a giant baby deer... 4 years in! Show me something big man!
Zion has been a defensive disappointment throughout 9 games. He certainly isn't flying Draymond right now. On offense... I feel you could throw him into any game with any player and he'd still be able to just be a cannonball with the most ridiculous second jump ever. He's going to help a team just by being on the floor. His rim diving "gravity" looks terrifying, just sucks the entire defense in when he starts to cut.
I dunno. Zion has only played 9 games so I still believe he can improve. Embiid is starting to make me worry that he won't improve. Embiid's basement when healthy is still perennial DPOY candidate wich is pretty good. I'll go with the unknown and pick Zion though.
Was hoping you’d go with Embiid at the end, but agreed on pretty much all points. I like defense so I’m not impartial.
If the question was "who's better/more impactful right now", I would say Embiid without hesitation. Also, if Zion doesn't project as a high impact defensive player, I'd swing back Embiid regardless of Zion's offensive potential.
Since we haven't seen the limit for Zion yet, it's easier to be tantalized by his potential. We're free to imagine the best possible Zion, and the data doesn't exist yet to dampen that enthusiasm. Since we have almost 200 games of Embiid (+ two playoff runs), it becomes much easier for us to project his career and imagine realistic best and worst case.
Once Embiid got healthy, he immediately burst into the NBA as a force of nature on both ends. A DPOY candidate and a 20 point scorer through sheer talent. I find it highly concerning that, despite that ridiculous talent, we haven't seen him find new things to do with it. His passing, shooting, offensive arsenal etc. has been almost completely stagnant, and he hasn't yet been good enough to dominate in the playoffs against tough matchups. The first 2 years I felt: "damn he's going to be unstoppable once he learns how to read defenses". The last 2 years I've felt more like "is he ever going to learn defenses?". I listened to Steve Nash talk about Amar'e (another late-comer to the game with super charged physical gifts) on a Bill Simmons pod. He talked about how Amar'e only learned to read backline defenses in his final season with the Suns/first season with New York (unfortunately right before the injuries overtook him). Maybe that could be the case for Jojo...he'll be a bit ineffective as a #1 option against elite defenses until he's 28 or 29? Joel is 25 right now. He does kind of remind me of a giant Amare on offense. Unstoppably talented but easily flummoxed.
It's never fair to compare a successful rookie to a veteran. We're still perimitted to picture the perfect Zion career and be excited about that. These comparisons are always automatically biased towards the young phenom over the veteran whose figuring out how to build on weaknesses the league has learned to exploit. And Zion so far sucks on defense...
NO-KG-AI wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:And Zion so far sucks on defense...
Based on what?
PhilBlackson wrote:If we're assuming health then this has to be Embiid imo.
bwgood77 wrote:PhilBlackson wrote:If we're assuming health then this has to be Embiid imo.
Never thought I'd see that as an argument on Embiid's behalf.
lordjeff05 wrote:syntax wrote:lordjeff05 wrote:Embiid is a beast on defense but he suffers from the same issue that Rudy Gobert has. Neither player is comfortable guarding out on the perimeter. That leaves them susceptible to stretch bigs and guards who can create their own perimeter shot off the dribble. If you force them to switch, they are in trouble.
Hangon, you're saying that because Gobert blocks 2 shots a game and have the Jazz 8th in defensive rating (Sixers are 4th in defensive rating) that these big men are somehow a liability to their team on defense?
Yes, in the playoffs they can be. During the regular season ICE coverage with a decent rim protector is going to provide decent defense. When you combine long wings with excellent rim protectors, like the Jazz and Sixers have, it provides excellent defense.
The problem gets to be in the playoffs when you have guards and wings that can attack bigs from the perimeter, especially if they are paired with bigs that can shoot 3’s. Utah’s problems with Golden State and Houston over the last several years are a good example of this. Gobert is an excellent defender but if he has to guard Steph or Harden on the perimeter he becomes a meme.
Toronto has two bigs that can space the floor for pick and pops and several players that can hit threes off the dribble. You don’t want Embiid guarding Lowry above the break.
Not every team has players that can exploit this weakness but there are always at least one or two teams that can do this in each playoff race.
Where Embiid has an advantage that Gobert doesn’t have is that he can better exploit mismatches in the post which can discourage opposing teams from player smaller floor spacers from 3.
Even as a rookie, Zion is destroying teams on switches and he provides the additional benefit of being more comfortable away from the paint on defense.
jamaalstar21 wrote:NO-KG-AI wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:And Zion so far sucks on defense...
Based on what?
Mostly that's my opinion on what I see on the court. He looks not up to speed with the Pelicans rotations and doesn't look great guarding the perimeter. His lack of height also seems more noticeable on the defensive end.
But if you don't like my opinion, I guess just use... literally ANY defensive metric? I just looked up the 5 defensive numbers I have the easiest access to:
DBPM: -1.8 (165th in the NBA)
Defensive rating: 113 (340th in the NBA)
Def EPM: -1.1 (16th percentile)
Def PIPM: -0.23
DRPM: 0.34 (187th in the NBA)
Don't get me wrong, I still think he projects as an impact defender in the NBA down the line, but any of us who were expecting Flying Draymond from day 1... we were a little optimistic.
Doctor MJ wrote:I don't understand why people jump in a thread and say basically, "This thing you're all talking about. I'm too ignorant to know anything about it. Lollerskates!"
PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
NO-KG-AI wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:NO-KG-AI wrote:
Based on what?
Mostly that's my opinion on what I see on the court. He looks not up to speed with the Pelicans rotations and doesn't look great guarding the perimeter. His lack of height also seems more noticeable on the defensive end.
But if you don't like my opinion, I guess just use... literally ANY defensive metric? I just looked up the 5 defensive numbers I have the easiest access to:
DBPM: -1.8 (165th in the NBA)
Defensive rating: 113 (340th in the NBA)
Def EPM: -1.1 (16th percentile)
Def PIPM: -0.23
DRPM: 0.34 (187th in the NBA)
Don't get me wrong, I still think he projects as an impact defender in the NBA down the line, but any of us who were expecting Flying Draymond from day 1... we were a little optimistic.
And despite all that, the Pelicans are massively better defensively with him on the floor. He looks like the game is going too fast for him on defense right now, but he's still not been sucking, we're way better with him out there.
Doctor MJ wrote:I don't understand why people jump in a thread and say basically, "This thing you're all talking about. I'm too ignorant to know anything about it. Lollerskates!"
NO-KG-AI wrote:jamaalstar21 wrote:And Zion so far sucks on defense...
Based on what?
gh123 wrote:Zion lucky if he gets 18 ppg on decent efficiency. Midget big man is a no-career in NBA. Chuck being the only wonder. Zion is the next Tractor Trailer at best.