If Beilein is out who's in and what does it say about plan

[gflem]

Actually, making the same mistakes is what is happening. Turnovers are turnovers, regardless of what type of skillset the opponent has, dribbling into three defenders with your head down over and over again is correctable if there is a cost to repeatedly doing so.
Not getting back on defense regularly for over 50 games isn't a different mistake, it is bad habits not being corrected. Going under picks when defending a good shooter again and again in the same game, let alone game after game, is just players not listening to coaches and vets trying to teach good habits.
In Garland's case he definitely needs to get stronger in order to do so, but at least make the effort. By contrast, KLove loafing around on D isn't helping either. And, we have seen plenty of that this season as well. Again, we all know that winning 40 games was never on the agenda this season, but the idea was to install a different culture here in order to teach the young players to be professional in their approach to the game, and it doesn't look like that is the case very often.

[JonFromVA]

The bad habits you are talking about go away for a game or two and then come back against the better teams. The players involved have to be tuned in to become fully aware of their shortcomings, and have to believe in the coaching staff. The recent reports are that the team has tuned out Beilein, and the evidence is on the court on an almost nightly basis. We all know the team is tanking but as JBK says the players have to be held accountable, this is where ownership did the coaching staff no favors, in that the directive is to play the young guys regardless of performance. To me, this type of situation allows the players to tune out the coach and play YOLO ball without any reprecussions. Add in the fact that the coaching staff is staying with the mantra that they see good things, and improvement even in blowout losses and it likely becomes a joke in the locker room.

Yeah I understand the perception.
I don't agree .
They drafted a nice upside kid who was not ready for the NBA and threw him in the fire leaving bknight who despite his struggle since injury is a smart bb player that they could have used if the goal was to win it was never the goal at all.
They have never been trying to win games. As difficult as that may seem to believe I wouldn't put it past them to be so in bed with KLove that his antics were all staged as well esp given Beilein defended Sexton after he got national attn for being a bad pg when all he did was exactly what the t@nk commander Beilein told him to do.
Beilein is probably too use to having respect and yes the losing should lessen it, but the biggest issue here is this org doesn't care if its vets were unhappy because the priority is the future even if that means they are creating some bad habits or should maybe just be learning harder faster.
Making the same mistakes isn't usually what's going on either...it's different match ups and skill sets coming at them each night so it's never the same really.

I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.

It seems Dan and Koby were naive in thinking all it took to create a new culture was to replace the coaching staff. We've seen time and time again that trying to convince NBA millionaires to work hard, practice hard, and learn systems they don't want to learn is near impossible.

Nobody ruined Kyrie ... he never had much of a chance at becoming a great PG to begin with. He was simply too good at what he already knew how to do, and had no interest in believing anything else was important. I mean ... Scott didn't "ruin" Chris Paul. It was his experience with developing PGs that we extensibly brought him in.

In reality he was an "enabler" and that's what the players want. A guy who will have their back, help build their "brand", and not embarrass them.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Drummond trade was what pushed Beilein over the edge, because it meant we failed to move Love and Thompson for vets, they'd still be running the locker-room, and with Drummond on board the focus moves away from player development to doing things that might work. In other words, Beilein was given another vet to try to make happy rather than full reign over the young players with a clear mandate that anybody that doesn't fit in will be shipped out.

There's only a few ways to make NBA players eat their vegetables ... either invest fully in your coach, empower him, and dump players who won't go along ... or find a coach who can by power of their personality and/or previous success create buy-in.

It's looking like we came up short in both of those areas and Beilein is the kind of person that would realize that if he's unable to connect with the players and get them to follow him, that this isn't the job for him.

[jbk1234]

Yeah I understand the perception.
I don't agree .
They drafted a nice upside kid who was not ready for the NBA and threw him in the fire leaving bknight who despite his struggle since injury is a smart bb player that they could have used if the goal was to win it was never the goal at all.
They have never been trying to win games. As difficult as that may seem to believe I wouldn't put it past them to be so in bed with KLove that his antics were all staged as well esp given Beilein defended Sexton after he got national attn for being a bad pg when all he did was exactly what the t@nk commander Beilein told him to do.
Beilein is probably too use to having respect and yes the losing should lessen it, but the biggest issue here is this org doesn't care if its vets were unhappy because the priority is the future even if that means they are creating some bad habits or should maybe just be learning harder faster.
Making the same mistakes isn't usually what's going on either...it's different match ups and skill sets coming at them each night so it's never the same really.

I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.

It seems Dan and Koby were naive in thinking all it took to create a new culture was to replace the coaching staff. We've seen time and time again that trying to convince NBA millionaires to work hard, practice hard, and learn systems they don't want to learn is near impossible.

Nobody ruined Kyrie ... he never had much of a chance at becoming a great PG to begin with. He was simply too good at what he already knew how to do, and had no interest in believing anything else was important. I mean ... Scott didn't "ruin" Chris Paul. It was his experience with developing PGs that we extensibly brought him in.

In reality he was an "enabler" and that's what the players want. A guy who will have their back, help build their "brand", and not embarrass them.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Drummond trade was what pushed Beilein over the edge, because it meant we failed to move Love and Thompson for vets, they'd still be running the locker-room, and with Drummond on board the focus moves away from player development to doing things that might work. In other words, Beilein was given another vet to try to make happy rather than full reign over the young players with a clear mandate that anybody that doesn't fit in will be shipped out.

There's only a few ways to make NBA players eat their vegetables ... either invest fully in your coach, empower him, and dump players who won't go along ... or find a coach who can by power of their personality and/or previous success create buy-in.

It's looking like we came up short in both of those areas and Beilein is the kind of person that would realize that if he's unable to connect with the players and get them to follow him, that this isn't the job for him.

Go back and watch Kyrie's first 20 or so games in the NBA before Scott told him that if the team was going to win, he need to pick up more of the scoring load. Seriously. It was the best point guard play of his career. After Scott pushed him to be a more aggressive scorer, he became Mr. Fourth Quarter, made the all star team, and thought he had arrived his rookie season.

As far as Beilein, who knows. He sounded done and/or defeated after the GS game. It seemed to me that to the extent he went in on players, it was the younger guys during that presser. Then we had two competitive games in close losses when TT sat before trading for Drummond. It's been reported out now that he abandoned his offense early on in the season which was the primary reason for bringing him aboard. It's was also reported out that Beilein felt as though the 82-game schedule and lack of practice time was really hampering his ability to develop young players. FWIW, I don't think Bickerstaff is a particularly good or loyal assistant.

Drummond isn't exactly a Beilein system guy but TT isn't returning, or shouldn't, and they'll find a trade for Love this summer or the next. I'm skeptical the problem was primarily with the vets. The truth is that nobody here knows what the front office was telling the coaching staff regarding the younger players and/or what the coaching staff was telling the young players and/or the vets. The only thing I know for sure is that what I watched for two-thirds of this season and all of last was not player development. It was a bunch of young guys who think they're better than they are playing selfish basketball. At least at this point, none of them appear to have a ceiling that's high enough to start on a winning team playing that way. Unlimited minutes isn't going to change that.

If you can't contend due to a lack of talent, you at least want your system to be strong enough that you're getting the best version of the players you have. There's a reason that some teams over perform their base talent level and it's because they've got five guys on the court who are all doing the little things, not trying to do too much, playing smart, and giving maximum effort on both sides of the ball.

[Stillwater]

The bad habits you are talking about go away for a game or two and then come back against the better teams. The players involved have to be tuned in to become fully aware of their shortcomings, and have to believe in the coaching staff. The recent reports are that the team has tuned out Beilein, and the evidence is on the court on an almost nightly basis. We all know the team is tanking but as JBK says the players have to be held accountable, this is where ownership did the coaching staff no favors, in that the directive is to play the young guys regardless of performance. To me, this type of situation allows the players to tune out the coach and play YOLO ball without any reprecussions. Add in the fact that the coaching staff is staying with the mantra that they see good things, and improvement even in blowout losses and it likely becomes a joke in the locker room.

Yeah I understand the perception.
I don't agree .
They drafted a nice upside kid who was not ready for the NBA and threw him in the fire leaving bknight who despite his struggle since injury is a smart bb player that they could have used if the goal was to win it was never the goal at all.
They have never been trying to win games. As difficult as that may seem to believe I wouldn't put it past them to be so in bed with KLove that his antics were all staged as well esp given Beilein defended Sexton after he got national attn for being a bad pg when all he did was exactly what the t@nk commander Beilein told him to do.
Beilein is probably too use to having respect and yes the losing should lessen it, but the biggest issue here is this org doesn't care if its vets were unhappy because the priority is the future even if that means they are creating some bad habits or should maybe just be learning harder faster.
Making the same mistakes isn't usually what's going on either...it's different match ups and skill sets coming at them each night so it's never the same really.

I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.

Im not reaching https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/01/07/kevin-love-says-viral-reaction-was-about-coaching-call-not-collin-sexton/
People love to harp on Sexton since he is a combo scoring guard being told to score instead of a passing do it all playmaker but in reality he is in fact improving in that regard significantly and Garland despite the obvious iq severely lacks the ability physically to play in the NBA to the po>by I'm not sure getting stronger makes up for the lack of athleticism.
I'm leaning towards this org turning away from the rebuild tanking and trying to see what they got trying to win with a Love Drummond front court to close the season expecting to still be in the top 10 without bad rotations. However if bickerstaffs calling the shots the lineups won't tell the org what they got with Garland because he will easily fall out of the rotation based on jbb historical vet use punting on DG value hoping he just needs more strength. When playing him and KPJ is exactly what they need to do with Sexton off the bench and see if The rookies can find a rhythm and show something worth keeping.
Right now I'm drafting a pg if Wiseman is gone

[Stillwater]

Appears he's gone already.https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nba/cavaliers/report-john-beilein-stepping-down-as-cavs-head-coach/95-a8dd12f2-151b-404e-9c84-8f02fd7a5825
Jbb better change his old ways . I guess I'm just going to join Beilein and walk if I see Delly in the starting line up in the next few games lol.

[jbk1234]

Yeah I understand the perception.
I don't agree .
They drafted a nice upside kid who was not ready for the NBA and threw him in the fire leaving bknight who despite his struggle since injury is a smart bb player that they could have used if the goal was to win it was never the goal at all.
They have never been trying to win games. As difficult as that may seem to believe I wouldn't put it past them to be so in bed with KLove that his antics were all staged as well esp given Beilein defended Sexton after he got national attn for being a bad pg when all he did was exactly what the t@nk commander Beilein told him to do.
Beilein is probably too use to having respect and yes the losing should lessen it, but the biggest issue here is this org doesn't care if its vets were unhappy because the priority is the future even if that means they are creating some bad habits or should maybe just be learning harder faster.
Making the same mistakes isn't usually what's going on either...it's different match ups and skill sets coming at them each night so it's never the same really.

I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.

Im not reaching https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/01/07/kevin-love-says-viral-reaction-was-about-coaching-call-not-collin-sexton/
People love to harp on Sexton since he is a combo scoring guard being told to score instead of a passing do it all playmaker but in reality he is in fact improving in that regard significantly and Garland despite the obvious iq severely lacks the ability physically to play in the NBA to the po>by I'm not sure getting stronger makes up for the lack of athleticism.
I'm leaning towards this org turning away from the rebuild tanking and trying to see what they got trying to win with a Love Drummond front court to close the season expecting to still be in the top 10 without bad rotations. However if bickerstaffs calling the shots the lineups won't tell the org what they got with Garland because he will easily fall out of the rotation based on jbb historical vet use punting on DG value hoping he just needs more strength. When playing him and KPJ is exactly what they need to do with Sexton off the bench and see if The rookies can find a rhythm and show something worth keeping.
Right now I'm drafting a pg if Wiseman is gone

If the sum total of your evidence that Sexton is being asked to play like that is the single play at the end of the quarter, you're really reaching.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

[JonFromVA]

I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.

It seems Dan and Koby were naive in thinking all it took to create a new culture was to replace the coaching staff. We've seen time and time again that trying to convince NBA millionaires to work hard, practice hard, and learn systems they don't want to learn is near impossible.

Nobody ruined Kyrie ... he never had much of a chance at becoming a great PG to begin with. He was simply too good at what he already knew how to do, and had no interest in believing anything else was important. I mean ... Scott didn't "ruin" Chris Paul. It was his experience with developing PGs that we extensibly brought him in.

In reality he was an "enabler" and that's what the players want. A guy who will have their back, help build their "brand", and not embarrass them.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Drummond trade was what pushed Beilein over the edge, because it meant we failed to move Love and Thompson for vets, they'd still be running the locker-room, and with Drummond on board the focus moves away from player development to doing things that might work. In other words, Beilein was given another vet to try to make happy rather than full reign over the young players with a clear mandate that anybody that doesn't fit in will be shipped out.

There's only a few ways to make NBA players eat their vegetables ... either invest fully in your coach, empower him, and dump players who won't go along ... or find a coach who can by power of their personality and/or previous success create buy-in.

It's looking like we came up short in both of those areas and Beilein is the kind of person that would realize that if he's unable to connect with the players and get them to follow him, that this isn't the job for him.

Go back and watch Kyrie's first 20 or so games in the NBA before Scott told him that if the team was going to win, he need to pick up more of the scoring load. Seriously. It was the best point guard play of his career. After Scott pushed him to be a more aggressive scorer, he became Mr. Fourth Quarter, made the all star team, and thought he had arrived his rookie season.

As far as Beilein, who knows. He sounded done and/or defeated after the GS game. It seemed to me that to the extent he went in on players, it was the younger guys during that presser. Then we had two competitive games in close losses when TT sat before trading for Drummond. It's been reported out now that he abandoned his offense early on in the season which was the primary reason for bringing him aboard. It's was also reported out that Beilein felt as though the 82-game schedule and lack of practice time was really hampering his ability to develop young players. FWIW, I don't think Bickerstaff is a particularly good or loyal assistant.

Drummond isn't exactly a Beilein system guy but TT isn't returning, or shouldn't, and they'll find a trade for Love this summer or the next. I'm skeptical the problem was primarily with the vets. The truth is that nobody here knows what the front office was telling the coaching staff regarding the younger players and/or what the coaching staff was telling the young players and/or the vets. The only thing I know for sure is that what I watched for two-thirds of this season and all of last was not player development. It was a bunch of young guys who think they're better than they are playing selfish basketball. At least at this point, none of them appear to have a ceiling that's high enough to start on a winning team playing that way. Unlimited minutes isn't going to change that.

If you can't contend due to a lack of talent, you at least want your system to be strong enough that you're getting the best version of the players you have. There's a reason that some teams over perform their base talent level and it's because they've got five guys on the court who are all doing the little things, not trying to do too much, playing smart, and giving maximum effort on both sides of the ball.

The vets didn't like how Sexton was playing, but that dates back to last year. Garland has been a very willing passer for a PG we thought might just dance and launch 3's.

So let's say all the dynamics are unclear.

Now what I clearly do remember about Kyries start in the NBA was that he was shooting well but struggling to score around the rim. If he was any more of a willing passer it was probably due to fear of getting his shot blocked. Once he adjusted, he no longer had any use for teammates beyond setting an initial screen.

[ConstableChaos]

as just about the sole survivor on Exum island I have watched a almost all the Cavs games since his trade and here are some takeways I have-

The young guys - Sexton,Garland and Porter - are all very talented, but appear to have free reign to do whatever they want with no repercussions. Early shots in the shot clock, terrible bball decisions and huge defensive lapses. Exum at Utah would have been benched for the whole season if he played that way. I'm not sure what the best way to develop talent is, but the way the Cavs do it (blame the coaching, front office?) is not the way

of these guys i love Porter the most, but he does love a long range contested 2, looks to just need more experience. Sexton looks a 6th man on a conference finalist imo, and to early to tell on Garland - but he is definitely talented but will get hunted defensively in the more important games

If developing these young guys is the way forward, why is Delly (I love him to death #tokyo2020) getting on the court? Buy him out send him to LAL with LeBron!

This is definitely trickling down to the vets. They seem dis interested (particularly KLove) and this shows on the defensive end. Drummond comes in the first game and is taking off the dribble 3's??

Exum already looks like the best wing defender on the team, but then he is not guarding the best wing/PG on the opponents gets him lost in games. He has been pretty average since coming over- but the story of his career is he's coming off a major injury. Fingers crossed he gets through the rest of the season and the off season healthy. He showed enough at Utah to get that contract which was looking a steal for Utah till he rolled his ankle then busted his knee (again)

What is the Cavs identity? I couldn't say - but i guess they want to own teams on the glass? I think they need a coach who's going to fire a rocket up them and make these guys more accountable.

Thanks, just my 2c

[Stillwater]

I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.

Im not reaching https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/01/07/kevin-love-says-viral-reaction-was-about-coaching-call-not-collin-sexton/
People love to harp on Sexton since he is a combo scoring guard being told to score instead of a passing do it all playmaker but in reality he is in fact improving in that regard significantly and Garland despite the obvious iq severely lacks the ability physically to play in the NBA to the po>by I'm not sure getting stronger makes up for the lack of athleticism.
I'm leaning towards this org turning away from the rebuild tanking and trying to see what they got trying to win with a Love Drummond front court to close the season expecting to still be in the top 10 without bad rotations. However if bickerstaffs calling the shots the lineups won't tell the org what they got with Garland because he will easily fall out of the rotation based on jbb historical vet use punting on DG value hoping he just needs more strength. When playing him and KPJ is exactly what they need to do with Sexton off the bench and see if The rookies can find a rhythm and show something worth keeping.
Right now I'm drafting a pg if Wiseman is gone

If the sum total of your evidence that Sexton is being asked to play like that is the single play at the end of the quarter, you're really reaching.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

So let's get this straight...you think they kept telling him to do otherwise yet played him as a high usage starter all season praising his efforts
But didn't mean too? You can't be that ignorant man. They love the kid and his dedication to work far exceeds the average pampered ass kids like DG that come into the league on hype instead of effort.
Your real motivation for not accepting this is your beliefs that somehow KLove as a high usage first option was going to get good value returns as would he had if they had any intention to not tank. benching undeserving rookies could be coming with jbb leading the tank on top of they won't be worried about losing a top 10 pick at this stage doing it, but it isn't going to make Sexton any less effective or Garland any more efficient.
And the replacements are Exum and Delly so...

[Revenged25]

as just about the sole survivor on Exum island I have watched a almost all the Cavs games since his trade and here are some takeways I have-

The young guys - Sexton,Garland and Porter - are all very talented, but appear to have free reign to do whatever they want with no repercussions. Early shots in the shot clock, terrible bball decisions and huge defensive lapses. Exum at Utah would have been benched for the whole season if he played that way. I'm not sure what the best way to develop talent is, but the way the Cavs do it (blame the coaching, front office?) is not the way

of these guys i love Porter the most, but he does love a long range contested 2, looks to just need more experience. Sexton looks a 6th man on a conference finalist imo, and to early to tell on Garland - but he is definitely talented but will get hunted defensively in the more important games

If developing these young guys is the way forward, why is Delly (I love him to death #tokyo2020) getting on the court? Buy him out send him to LAL with LeBron!

This is definitely trickling down to the vets. They seem dis interested (particularly KLove) and this shows on the defensive end. Drummond comes in the first game and is taking off the dribble 3's??

Exum already looks like the best wing defender on the team, but then he is not guarding the best wing/PG on the opponents gets him lost in games. He has been pretty average since coming over- but the story of his career is he's coming off a major injury. Fingers crossed he gets through the rest of the season and the off season healthy. He showed enough at Utah to get that contract which was looking a steal for Utah till he rolled his ankle then busted his knee (again)

What is the Cavs identity? I couldn't say - but i guess they want to own teams on the glass? I think they need a coach who's going to fire a rocket up them and make these guys more accountable.

Thanks, just my 2c

I'm pretty much with you on your views of Porter and Sexton. Sexton would be a phenomenal 6th man even on a championship caliber team as he's constantly improving, including his defense, he just needs to also develop some better court vision.

Porter is who I'm the highest on simply because you can see his raw potential on display. There was that great battle scoring vs Harden, he's had moments where he's been able to be dominant defensively though that also goes with him getting lost and giving up points as well, and I think he is the person currently on the roster with the highest chance of becoming a star.

I think Drummond is actually a good fit for this roster as it's currently constructed being able to affect the shots of driving players better after our guards get beat as well letting the young guys start getting to the races with the expectation that Drummond will get the rebound and can push it forward. Offensively he gives the young guys a good lob target as well as a more reliable drop off if they get caught in the trees than Tristan who has a habit of bobbling those passes therefore removing the opportunity to put it in for an easy basket.

KLove still has a role as a floor spacer that's needed, but I could see another scenario where the Cavs lose some spacing by trading away Love and it still working out due to them going for more of an uptempo just run the other team out of the building offense which might also help defensively if the other team is too tired to really move and get good shots due to running so much.

[JonFromVA]

as just about the sole survivor on Exum island I have watched a almost all the Cavs games since his trade and here are some takeways I have-

The young guys - Sexton,Garland and Porter - are all very talented, but appear to have free reign to do whatever they want with no repercussions. Early shots in the shot clock, terrible bball decisions and huge defensive lapses. Exum at Utah would have been benched for the whole season if he played that way. I'm not sure what the best way to develop talent is, but the way the Cavs do it (blame the coaching, front office?) is not the way

of these guys i love Porter the most, but he does love a long range contested 2, looks to just need more experience. Sexton looks a 6th man on a conference finalist imo, and to early to tell on Garland - but he is definitely talented but will get hunted defensively in the more important games

If developing these young guys is the way forward, why is Delly (I love him to death #tokyo2020) getting on the court? Buy him out send him to LAL with LeBron!

This is definitely trickling down to the vets. They seem dis interested (particularly KLove) and this shows on the defensive end. Drummond comes in the first game and is taking off the dribble 3's??

Exum already looks like the best wing defender on the team, but then he is not guarding the best wing/PG on the opponents gets him lost in games. He has been pretty average since coming over- but the story of his career is he's coming off a major injury. Fingers crossed he gets through the rest of the season and the off season healthy. He showed enough at Utah to get that contract which was looking a steal for Utah till he rolled his ankle then busted his knee (again)

What is the Cavs identity? I couldn't say - but i guess they want to own teams on the glass? I think they need a coach who's going to fire a rocket up them and make these guys more accountable.

Thanks, just my 2c

Thanks for your contribution.

What I see is a team that stops trying to run stuff when up against a team that knows how to defend their plays.

The team needed practice time and buy in to advance further with the offense and lacked both.

I doubt JBB will be allowed to bench the young players, but he does have some leverage right now if that's a deal killer for him.

[jbk1234]

Im not reaching https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/01/07/kevin-love-says-viral-reaction-was-about-coaching-call-not-collin-sexton/
People love to harp on Sexton since he is a combo scoring guard being told to score instead of a passing do it all playmaker but in reality he is in fact improving in that regard significantly and Garland despite the obvious iq severely lacks the ability physically to play in the NBA to the po>by I'm not sure getting stronger makes up for the lack of athleticism.
I'm leaning towards this org turning away from the rebuild tanking and trying to see what they got trying to win with a Love Drummond front court to close the season expecting to still be in the top 10 without bad rotations. However if bickerstaffs calling the shots the lineups won't tell the org what they got with Garland because he will easily fall out of the rotation based on jbb historical vet use punting on DG value hoping he just needs more strength. When playing him and KPJ is exactly what they need to do with Sexton off the bench and see if The rookies can find a rhythm and show something worth keeping.
Right now I'm drafting a pg if Wiseman is gone

If the sum total of your evidence that Sexton is being asked to play like that is the single play at the end of the quarter, you're really reaching.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using RealGM mobile app

So let's get this straight...you think they kept telling him to do otherwise yet played him as a high usage starter all season praising his efforts
But didn't mean too? You can't be that ignorant man. They love the kid and his dedication to work far exceeds the average pampered ass kids like DG that come into the league on hype instead of effort.
Your real motivation for not accepting this is your beliefs that somehow KLove as a high usage first option was going to get good value returns as would he had if they had any intention to not tank. benching undeserving rookies could be coming with jbb leading the tank on top of they won't be worried about losing a top 10 pick at this stage doing it, but it isn't going to make Sexton any less effective or Garland any more efficient.
And the replacements are Exum and Delly so...

I don't think they've been praising his efforts. I think that's you extrapolating from, at best, a couple of data points. In terms of my real motivation, it's for the Cavs to one day have a winning team again, to establish a winning culture with all that entails, and that necessarily entails players playing a role that is best for the team.

If K. Love at 13.0 FGA per game on a TS% of .600 is a high usage first option, then what exactly is Sexton at 16.6 FGA on a TS% of .544? I mean K. Love is a PF and is averaging more assists than Sexton this year. That's ridiculous.

[JonFromVA]

Yeah I understand the perception.
I don't agree .
They drafted a nice upside kid who was not ready for the NBA and threw him in the fire leaving bknight who despite his struggle since injury is a smart bb player that they could have used if the goal was to win it was never the goal at all.
They have never been trying to win games. As difficult as that may seem to believe I wouldn't put it past them to be so in bed with KLove that his antics were all staged as well esp given Beilein defended Sexton after he got national attn for being a bad pg when all he did was exactly what the t@nk commander Beilein told him to do.
Beilein is probably too use to having respect and yes the losing should lessen it, but the biggest issue here is this org doesn't care if its vets were unhappy because the priority is the future even if that means they are creating some bad habits or should maybe just be learning harder faster.
Making the same mistakes isn't usually what's going on either...it's different match ups and skill sets coming at them each night so it's never the same really.

I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.

It seems Dan and Koby were naive in thinking all it took to create a new culture was to replace the coaching staff. We've seen time and time again that trying to convince NBA millionaires to work hard, practice hard, and learn systems they don't want to learn is near impossible.

Nobody ruined Kyrie ... he never had much of a chance at becoming a great PG to begin with. He was simply too good at what he already knew how to do, and had no interest in believing anything else was important. I mean ... Scott didn't "ruin" Chris Paul. It was his experience with developing PGs that we extensibly brought him in.

In reality he was an "enabler" and that's what the players want. A guy who will have their back, help build their "brand", and not embarrass them.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Drummond trade was what pushed Beilein over the edge, because it meant we failed to move Love and Thompson for vets, they'd still be running the locker-room, and with Drummond on board the focus moves away from player development to doing things that might work. In other words, Beilein was given another vet to try to make happy rather than full reign over the young players with a clear mandate that anybody that doesn't fit in will be shipped out.

There's only a few ways to make NBA players eat their vegetables ... either invest fully in your coach, empower him, and dump players who won't go along ... or find a coach who can by power of their personality and/or previous success create buy-in.

It's looking like we came up short in both of those areas and Beilein is the kind of person that would realize that if he's unable to connect with the players and get them to follow him, that this isn't the job for him.

Well, it didn't take long for a rumor to come out that supported my guess:

@ByJasonLloyd on @923TheFan just now says Andre Drummond, in two short weeks with #Cavs, had already made it clear that if Beilein was back, he was gone after this season and that this was a worse situation than in Detroit. Side note, he shares an agent with Kevin Love.

[Revenged25]

I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.

It seems Dan and Koby were naive in thinking all it took to create a new culture was to replace the coaching staff. We've seen time and time again that trying to convince NBA millionaires to work hard, practice hard, and learn systems they don't want to learn is near impossible.

Nobody ruined Kyrie ... he never had much of a chance at becoming a great PG to begin with. He was simply too good at what he already knew how to do, and had no interest in believing anything else was important. I mean ... Scott didn't "ruin" Chris Paul. It was his experience with developing PGs that we extensibly brought him in.

In reality he was an "enabler" and that's what the players want. A guy who will have their back, help build their "brand", and not embarrass them.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Drummond trade was what pushed Beilein over the edge, because it meant we failed to move Love and Thompson for vets, they'd still be running the locker-room, and with Drummond on board the focus moves away from player development to doing things that might work. In other words, Beilein was given another vet to try to make happy rather than full reign over the young players with a clear mandate that anybody that doesn't fit in will be shipped out.

There's only a few ways to make NBA players eat their vegetables ... either invest fully in your coach, empower him, and dump players who won't go along ... or find a coach who can by power of their personality and/or previous success create buy-in.

It's looking like we came up short in both of those areas and Beilein is the kind of person that would realize that if he's unable to connect with the players and get them to follow him, that this isn't the job for him.

Well, it didn't take long for a rumor to come out that supported my guess:

@ByJasonLloyd on @923TheFan just now says Andre Drummond, in two short weeks with #Cavs, had already made it clear that if Beilein was back, he was gone after this season and that this was a worse situation than in Detroit. Side note, he shares an agent with Kevin Love.

I'm not saying the Drummond trade might not have been the last straw for Beilein to realize the NBA just isn't where he's meant to be, but to think Drummond forced to the FO to make a change is a little is a little much. There is no way Beilein leaves all that money on the table if stepping down wasn't his idea and decision. Now I wouldn't be surprised if Love and Drummond's feelings didn't affect how much the Cavs FO might've tried to keep Beilein under contract and just taking some personal time to get his personal life in order and reset his batteries to come back to try and help develop over the off-season.

[Stillwater]

Andre agreeing with TT or Love or whatever that yep Beilein sure doesn't play us like we want or expect him too... did not factor into him leaving the org. He left , he approached them not the opposite.
Look, there are plenty of false impressions going on here as we continue to deal with the aftermath of being only good when Lebron was a member of the team and left for dead not once but twice.
The media loves to kick you when you are down and all of these speculative reports are half truths.
My impression is it was easy for Gilbert to say ok when Beilein said I want out, because for 1 he doesn't have to pay him anymore, 2 he has a nepotized assistant coach to pay to be the tank commander ( already has immediately given him the job ) and the last one is he had no **** choice because Beilein was done with trying to juggle emotional vets crying the blues about being stuck in a rebuild and a GM that had his hands tied moving them so he instead traded for a good center with no moral code a PO and a roster full of young players that respect the greedy vets in their ears more than the coach trying to coach them

[jbk1234]

I really hope the bolded isn't true. I hope it's just you reaching for an excuse. Because after how Byron Scott effectively ruined Kyrie as a legitimate PG, that would mean the organization has learned nothing.

It seems Dan and Koby were naive in thinking all it took to create a new culture was to replace the coaching staff. We've seen time and time again that trying to convince NBA millionaires to work hard, practice hard, and learn systems they don't want to learn is near impossible.

Nobody ruined Kyrie ... he never had much of a chance at becoming a great PG to begin with. He was simply too good at what he already knew how to do, and had no interest in believing anything else was important. I mean ... Scott didn't "ruin" Chris Paul. It was his experience with developing PGs that we extensibly brought him in.

In reality he was an "enabler" and that's what the players want. A guy who will have their back, help build their "brand", and not embarrass them.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Drummond trade was what pushed Beilein over the edge, because it meant we failed to move Love and Thompson for vets, they'd still be running the locker-room, and with Drummond on board the focus moves away from player development to doing things that might work. In other words, Beilein was given another vet to try to make happy rather than full reign over the young players with a clear mandate that anybody that doesn't fit in will be shipped out.

There's only a few ways to make NBA players eat their vegetables ... either invest fully in your coach, empower him, and dump players who won't go along ... or find a coach who can by power of their personality and/or previous success create buy-in.

It's looking like we came up short in both of those areas and Beilein is the kind of person that would realize that if he's unable to connect with the players and get them to follow him, that this isn't the job for him.

Well, it didn't take long for a rumor to come out that supported my guess:

@ByJasonLloyd on @923TheFan just now says Andre Drummond, in two short weeks with #Cavs, had already made it clear that if Beilein was back, he was gone after this season and that this was a worse situation than in Detroit. Side note, he shares an agent with Kevin Love.

It might have been worth it to keep Beilein just to get Drummond to opt out. On the flip side, if we can increase whatever trade value Drummond, TT, and Love might have, Beilein seemed almost lost coaching at this level and he was 67. It would be one thing if he was Brad Steven's age and you could suffer through a couple of awful years for a franchise coach. But that just wasn't in the cards. I was ready to cut the cord when he abandoned his offense. That was the primary reason he was hired. At the risk of repeating myself, there hasn't been much by the way of development going on anyway.

[JonFromVA]

It seems Dan and Koby were naive in thinking all it took to create a new culture was to replace the coaching staff. We've seen time and time again that trying to convince NBA millionaires to work hard, practice hard, and learn systems they don't want to learn is near impossible.

Nobody ruined Kyrie ... he never had much of a chance at becoming a great PG to begin with. He was simply too good at what he already knew how to do, and had no interest in believing anything else was important. I mean ... Scott didn't "ruin" Chris Paul. It was his experience with developing PGs that we extensibly brought him in.

In reality he was an "enabler" and that's what the players want. A guy who will have their back, help build their "brand", and not embarrass them.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the Drummond trade was what pushed Beilein over the edge, because it meant we failed to move Love and Thompson for vets, they'd still be running the locker-room, and with Drummond on board the focus moves away from player development to doing things that might work. In other words, Beilein was given another vet to try to make happy rather than full reign over the young players with a clear mandate that anybody that doesn't fit in will be shipped out.

There's only a few ways to make NBA players eat their vegetables ... either invest fully in your coach, empower him, and dump players who won't go along ... or find a coach who can by power of their personality and/or previous success create buy-in.

It's looking like we came up short in both of those areas and Beilein is the kind of person that would realize that if he's unable to connect with the players and get them to follow him, that this isn't the job for him.

Well, it didn't take long for a rumor to come out that supported my guess:

@ByJasonLloyd on @923TheFan just now says Andre Drummond, in two short weeks with #Cavs, had already made it clear that if Beilein was back, he was gone after this season and that this was a worse situation than in Detroit. Side note, he shares an agent with Kevin Love.

I'm not saying the Drummond trade might not have been the last straw for Beilein to realize the NBA just isn't where he's meant to be, but to think Drummond forced to the FO to make a change is a little is a little much. There is no way Beilein leaves all that money on the table if stepping down wasn't his idea and decision. Now I wouldn't be surprised if Love and Drummond's feelings didn't affect how much the Cavs FO might've tried to keep Beilein under contract and just taking some personal time to get his personal life in order and reset his batteries to come back to try and help develop over the off-season.

I can easily see some of both going on ... to what extent? Yes, that's still conjecture unless we get further rumors or better yet confirmation.

If players who weren't buying in were traded for players who had either played for Beilein would be receptive to him - well - that would had sent a completely different signal. Trading for Drummond (like I said at the time) seemed to be a play to save Kevin Love. Not only because they share the same agent and have a connection, but because of how he could compliment Kevin and give us some veteran stability if Tristan signs elsewhere. It also gives Sexton and Garland some rim protection and a P&R target.

Andre improves our chances of winning games which would have made life less miserable for ... well, everybody; but I don't think that was enough for Beilein. He didn't want to just go through the motions. It seems he lost the locker-room and knew it.

What Andre's stance does is just encourage everybody to accelerate everything.

Beilein I'm sure would have been professional and finished out the season so the Cavs could make a clean transition this off-season and he'd collect his fully salary, but he made it clear things weren't working and he was done or at least likely was done.

With Andre making it clear (no doubt through his agent) that Beilein was a problem (after just days!!!) that just makes the decision to act now rather than wait very clear. The trick then became reaching an agreement with Beilein and Bickerstaff so they could have a sensible and affordable transition.

I mean, it's not like we invested much in to Drummond. We could just try to recoup some assets by agreeing to S&T him this Summer and just be done with him. But then we'd probably be looking to trade Kevin, and we'd have to strongly considering trading Sexton or Garland too to break up that back-court.

And while it can be argued that would still be the best course for the team, presumably that's not what the Cavs were hoping to accomplish or at least they weren't interested in having that decision forced on them.

[jbk1234]

Well, it didn't take long for a rumor to come out that supported my guess:

I'm not saying the Drummond trade might not have been the last straw for Beilein to realize the NBA just isn't where he's meant to be, but to think Drummond forced to the FO to make a change is a little is a little much. There is no way Beilein leaves all that money on the table if stepping down wasn't his idea and decision. Now I wouldn't be surprised if Love and Drummond's feelings didn't affect how much the Cavs FO might've tried to keep Beilein under contract and just taking some personal time to get his personal life in order and reset his batteries to come back to try and help develop over the off-season.

I can easily see some of both going on ... to what extent? Yes, that's still conjecture unless we get further rumors or better yet confirmation.

If players who weren't buying in were traded for players who had either played for Beilein would be receptive to him - well - that would had sent a completely different signal. Trading for Drummond (like I said at the time) seemed to be a play to save Kevin Love. Not only because they share the same agent and have a connection, but because of how he could compliment Kevin and give us some veteran stability if Tristan signs elsewhere. It also gives Sexton and Garland some rim protection and a P&R target.

Andre improves our chances of winning games which would have made life less miserable for ... well, everybody; but I don't think that was enough for Beilein. He didn't want to just go through the motions. It seems he lost the locker-room and knew it.

What Andre's stance does is just encourage everybody to accelerate everything.

Beilein I'm sure would have been professional and finished out the season so the Cavs could make a clean transition this off-season and he'd collect his fully salary, but he made it clear things weren't working and he was done or at least likely was done.

With Andre making it clear (no doubt through his agent) that Beilein was a problem (after just days!!!) that just makes the decision to act now rather than wait very clear. The trick then became reaching an agreement with Beilein and Bickerstaff so they could have a sensible and affordable transition.

I mean, it's not like we invested much in to Drummond. We could just try to recoup some assets by agreeing to S&T him this Summer and just be done with him. But then we'd probably be looking to trade Kevin, and we'd have to strongly considering trading Sexton or Garland too to break up that back-court.

And while it can be argued that would still be the best course for the team, presumably that's not what the Cavs were hoping to accomplish or at least they weren't interested in having that decision forced on them.

I get that they share the same agent, but I really lose the thread when people argue that Drummond was brought in to help Love. I don't see them as a great pairing. Love doesn't strike me as having a low bbiq so hopefully he sees the same thing. Neither big man is a good PNR defender and they both have poor lateral quickness. Drummond's rim protection is vastly overrated. His block per minute rate is decidedly meh.

Offensively, Drummond's at his best when he tries to do less and sticks with what he's good at. He should not be trying to stretch the floor. He should not be screwing around with behind-the-back passes or excessive dribbling. Drummond should be setting picks, rolling to the hoop, crashing the boards, and posting up. That's it. Love is at his best when the floor is opened up and he's playing alongside more athletic big men like Nance who can offer some spacing but still presents enough of a threat to cut to the basket to keep the defense honest. Love's ideal pairing is a version of Nance who is several inches taller.

In order to have a Drummond/Love front court translate to wins, you'd have to fundamentally alter the team's approach. I'm talking about slowing the pace of the game down to a crawl and just starving the opponent of shots by killing them on the boards. That's not really conducive to developing young guards to play in the modern NBA, and if that's the plan, they'll need to start different guards than one currently on the roster (with the possible exception of Exum). I can't imagine that's the plan, but then again, nothing about this season has made sense thus far.

[Stillwater]

I'm not saying the Drummond trade might not have been the last straw for Beilein to realize the NBA just isn't where he's meant to be, but to think Drummond forced to the FO to make a change is a little is a little much. There is no way Beilein leaves all that money on the table if stepping down wasn't his idea and decision. Now I wouldn't be surprised if Love and Drummond's feelings didn't affect how much the Cavs FO might've tried to keep Beilein under contract and just taking some personal time to get his personal life in order and reset his batteries to come back to try and help develop over the off-season.

I can easily see some of both going on ... to what extent? Yes, that's still conjecture unless we get further rumors or better yet confirmation.

If players who weren't buying in were traded for players who had either played for Beilein would be receptive to him - well - that would had sent a completely different signal. Trading for Drummond (like I said at the time) seemed to be a play to save Kevin Love. Not only because they share the same agent and have a connection, but because of how he could compliment Kevin and give us some veteran stability if Tristan signs elsewhere. It also gives Sexton and Garland some rim protection and a P&R target.

Andre improves our chances of winning games which would have made life less miserable for ... well, everybody; but I don't think that was enough for Beilein. He didn't want to just go through the motions. It seems he lost the locker-room and knew it.

What Andre's stance does is just encourage everybody to accelerate everything.

Beilein I'm sure would have been professional and finished out the season so the Cavs could make a clean transition this off-season and he'd collect his fully salary, but he made it clear things weren't working and he was done or at least likely was done.

With Andre making it clear (no doubt through his agent) that Beilein was a problem (after just days!!!) that just makes the decision to act now rather than wait very clear. The trick then became reaching an agreement with Beilein and Bickerstaff so they could have a sensible and affordable transition.

I mean, it's not like we invested much in to Drummond. We could just try to recoup some assets by agreeing to S&T him this Summer and just be done with him. But then we'd probably be looking to trade Kevin, and we'd have to strongly considering trading Sexton or Garland too to break up that back-court.

And while it can be argued that would still be the best course for the team, presumably that's not what the Cavs were hoping to accomplish or at least they weren't interested in having that decision forced on them.

I get that they share the same agent, but I really lose the thread when people argue that Drummond was brought in to help Love. I don't see them as a great pairing. Love doesn't strike me as having a low bbiq so hopefully he sees the same thing. Neither big man is a good PNR defender and they both have poor lateral quickness. Drummond's rim protection is vastly overrated. His block per minute rate is decidedly meh.

Offensively, Drummond's at his best when he tries to do less and sticks with what he's good at. He should not be trying to stretch the floor. He should not be screwing around with behind-the-back passes or excessive dribbling. Drummond should be setting picks, rolling to the hoop, crashing the boards, and posting up. That's it. Love is at his best when the floor is opened up and he's playing alongside more athletic big men like Nance who can offer some spacing but still presents enough of a threat to cut to the basket to keep the defense honest. Love's ideal pairing is a version of Nance who is several inches taller.

In order to have a Drummond/Love front court translate to wins, you'd have to fundamentally alter the team's approach. I'm talking about slowing the pace of the game down to a crawl and just starving the opponent of shots by killing them on the boards. That's not really conducive to developing young guards to play in the modern NBA, and if that's the plan, they'll need to start different guards than one currently on the roster (with the possible exception of Exum). I can't imagine that's the plan, but then again, nothing about this season has made sense thus far.

of course it has... when the goal is to lose and keep the lottery pick to add a legit 1st option. none of the schemes or in game rotations have been optimal to winning basketball in the majority of games all season, and if its true JBB was in charge of that aspect of it ( doubtful given his history of overplaying vets) then it wont be getting any better without Beilein anyway. Which is just fine with this org who places way too high of value on draft picks especially considering how many times they have got it all wrong.In the past I have actually hoped they would get a lesser pick so they wouldn't get a chance to take the overhyped guy I didn't like and boom they of course picked the guy I didn't like over several other options again last draft. but they redeemed themselves taking Windler and KPJ so I let it go.

[JonFromVA]

I'm not saying the Drummond trade might not have been the last straw for Beilein to realize the NBA just isn't where he's meant to be, but to think Drummond forced to the FO to make a change is a little is a little much. There is no way Beilein leaves all that money on the table if stepping down wasn't his idea and decision. Now I wouldn't be surprised if Love and Drummond's feelings didn't affect how much the Cavs FO might've tried to keep Beilein under contract and just taking some personal time to get his personal life in order and reset his batteries to come back to try and help develop over the off-season.

I can easily see some of both going on ... to what extent? Yes, that's still conjecture unless we get further rumors or better yet confirmation.

If players who weren't buying in were traded for players who had either played for Beilein would be receptive to him - well - that would had sent a completely different signal. Trading for Drummond (like I said at the time) seemed to be a play to save Kevin Love. Not only because they share the same agent and have a connection, but because of how he could compliment Kevin and give us some veteran stability if Tristan signs elsewhere. It also gives Sexton and Garland some rim protection and a P&R target.

Andre improves our chances of winning games which would have made life less miserable for ... well, everybody; but I don't think that was enough for Beilein. He didn't want to just go through the motions. It seems he lost the locker-room and knew it.

What Andre's stance does is just encourage everybody to accelerate everything.

Beilein I'm sure would have been professional and finished out the season so the Cavs could make a clean transition this off-season and he'd collect his fully salary, but he made it clear things weren't working and he was done or at least likely was done.

With Andre making it clear (no doubt through his agent) that Beilein was a problem (after just days!!!) that just makes the decision to act now rather than wait very clear. The trick then became reaching an agreement with Beilein and Bickerstaff so they could have a sensible and affordable transition.

I mean, it's not like we invested much in to Drummond. We could just try to recoup some assets by agreeing to S&T him this Summer and just be done with him. But then we'd probably be looking to trade Kevin, and we'd have to strongly considering trading Sexton or Garland too to break up that back-court.

And while it can be argued that would still be the best course for the team, presumably that's not what the Cavs were hoping to accomplish or at least they weren't interested in having that decision forced on them.

I get that they share the same agent, but I really lose the thread when people argue that Drummond was brought in to help Love. I don't see them as a great pairing. Love doesn't strike me as having a low bbiq so hopefully he sees the same thing. Neither big man is a good PNR defender and they both have poor lateral quickness. Drummond's rim protection is vastly overrated. His block per minute rate is decidedly meh.

Offensively, Drummond's at his best when he tries to do less and sticks with what he's good at. He should not be trying to stretch the floor. He should not be screwing around with behind-the-back passes or excessive dribbling. Drummond should be setting picks, rolling to the hoop, crashing the boards, and posting up. That's it. Love is at his best when the floor is opened up and he's playing alongside more athletic big men like Nance who can offer some spacing but still presents enough of a threat to cut to the basket to keep the defense honest. Love's ideal pairing is a version of Nance who is several inches taller.

In order to have a Drummond/Love front court translate to wins, you'd have to fundamentally alter the team's approach. I'm talking about slowing the pace of the game down to a crawl and just starving the opponent of shots by killing them on the boards. That's not really conducive to developing young guards to play in the modern NBA, and if that's the plan, they'll need to start different guards than one currently on the roster (with the possible exception of Exum). I can't imagine that's the plan, but then again, nothing about this season has made sense thus far.

All things relative?

What other options did we have to bring in a player that averages more steals and blocks than Love, Thompson, and Nance Jr ... combined? Who else could we bring in that could actually finish in traffic?

Where exactly do we find a Nance Jr that's a few inches taller?

Well, in theory in the draft.

But even if we find that player, we still have to develop him, and there's little chance of that happening before Love forces his way off the team.

Maybe Sabonis could have been that guy if Indiana had made him available in trade rather than signing him for $77M/4yr.

Also, while Drummond has his warts, I mean in just the first 2 games we saw him doing the exact things they were complaining about in Detroit like bringing up the ball himself, shooting 3's, and missing stuff on D ... he wasn't exactly terrible at that stuff. If a big guy is trying to expand his game, you do have to cut him some rope.

I'd also point out that the Pistons have had some success with Andre - especially when their starting lineup has been in tact. They are +19 pp100 this season and +16 pp100 last.

We have a lineup this season that played at that level, but it sure wasn't the starters. It was Sexton-Clarkson-Osman-Love-Thompson and they were only grouped for a total of 30.2 minutes before Clarkson was shipped out.

But I digress, because understanding the team's motivations doesn't require figuring out what can and cannot work; rather it requires trying to guess what the Cavs are trying to do. What they think will work, or at least advantage them in the future.