Summer Trades...never too early

[tiderulz]

LMAO yeah lets trade our one guy that has Superstar potential whos already an all defensive player for Collins.. No thanks.

LMAO, that you think Isaac has Superstar potential. he will be a role player. a defensive star possibly, but a defensive role player. Say a more mobile Rudy Gobert with a little more range. I dont consider Gobert close to a superstar

I would ban the word 'superstar' on this forum if I could. It means nothing. The league isn't comprised of stars and role players. That's a hopelessly ignorant perspective. Distributions are functions. They are continuous. It's akin to describing the demographics of a population as young and old.

I want players that help us win games. I'm not going to argue as to whether or not Collins does this, but plenty of players that score 20 ppg make their teams worse and plenty that score fewer than 10 ppg make their teams better.

ehh, to each their own. To me, the league is compromised of superstars, stars and role players.
Superstars, to me they can single-handidly change the fortunes of a team - Lebron, Curry, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, (Doncic maybe, young but showing it) are some examples
Stars, great players that need more help to get a team in the top-4 of a conference - Jokic, Lilliard (he borders on SS to me), Young, Mitchell, Oladipo, Tatum, Jrue, George, Booker, Embiid, Wall, Beal, Westbrook are some examples
Role players, players that arent necessarily flashy, not a dominant scorer, but do a specific role, be it offense or defense (sometimes very well) and can sometimes be seen as a star too, but they dont always change the direction of a franchise - Gobert, Lou Will, Capela, Turner, Lopez, FVV, Vucevic, Adams

and there are other players that slide in between Role-player and Star to me. I dont throw the term Superstar to many players.

[Skybox]

There are greats and hall of famers that were defensive role players. Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Dikembe, Rodman, McHale and more.

Did you just call Kevin McHale a defensive role player?...are you like 12 years old? The only year he didn’t avg over 50% from the field was his last gimpy season at age 35. He scored over 20ppg for 6 consecutive seasons playing next to All-World Larry Bird. He was a star by any measure...the fact that he was a 6x All-Defensive just cements that fact...maybe you’re talking about some other McHale Because has very little in common with Bruce Bowen, Big Ben, Dikembe, and Rodman.

[Max Power]

To jump in here. Kevin McHale was absolutely a star player. Stating anything otherwise is just lack of knowledge of his career or just coming from someone who didn’t like him. He was once considered the best power forward to ever play. He was unstoppable in the paint during his prime. He had zero flash to his game, and that probably hurts his rep to the leisurely fan, he was the strongest shade of blue collar, but he wasn’t a glorified hatchet man like Kurt Rambis.

[tiderulz]

Did you just call Kevin McHale a defensive role player?...are you like 12 years old? The only year he didn’t avg over 50% from the field was his last gimpy season at age 35. He scored over 20ppg for 6 consecutive seasons playing next to All-World Larry Bird. He was a star by any measure...the fact that he was a 6x All-Defensive just cements that fact...maybe you’re talking about some other McHale Because has very little in common with Bruce Bowen, Big Ben, Dikembe, and Rodman.

I am probably older than you.You are welcome to your opinion just as I am to mine.

[tiderulz]

To jump in here. Kevin McHale was absolutely a star player. Stating anything otherwise is just lack of knowledge of his career or just coming from someone who didn’t like him. He was once considered the best power forward to ever play. He was unstoppable in the paint during his prime. He had zero flash to his game, and that probably hurts his rep to the leisurely fan, he was the strongest shade of blue collar, but he wasn’t a glorified hatchet man like Kurt Rambis.

then take Mchale out. Forest for the trees man, forest for the trees.

[Skybox]

Did you just call Kevin McHale a defensive role player?...are you like 12 years old? The only year he didn’t avg over 50% from the field was his last gimpy season at age 35. He scored over 20ppg for 6 consecutive seasons playing next to All-World Larry Bird. He was a star by any measure...the fact that he was a 6x All-Defensive just cements that fact...maybe you’re talking about some other McHale Because has very little in common with Bruce Bowen, Big Ben, Dikembe, and Rodman.

I am probably older than you.You are welcome to your opinion just as I am to mine.

Agreed. Sorry to jump you. I first caught on to the NBA living in Boston in the 80’s...defensive reflex

[tiderulz]

Did you just call Kevin McHale a defensive role player?...are you like 12 years old? The only year he didn’t avg over 50% from the field was his last gimpy season at age 35. He scored over 20ppg for 6 consecutive seasons playing next to All-World Larry Bird. He was a star by any measure...the fact that he was a 6x All-Defensive just cements that fact...maybe you’re talking about some other McHale Because has very little in common with Bruce Bowen, Big Ben, Dikembe, and Rodman.

I am probably older than you.You are welcome to your opinion just as I am to mine.

Agreed. Sorry to jump you. I first caught on to the NBA living in Boston in the 80’s...defensive reflex

all good. a bleak season with little to look forward to frazzles the nerves

[basketballRob]

Collins has elite efficiency...empty stats guys aren’t usually efficient. And Hawks are something like 8-39 in the last 2 years without Collins so Hawks are much better with him. Bet neither team does this.

Empty stats are from a player that can score but can't stop someone else from scoring. The reason i give Isaac the edge is because he can completely shut someone down. Collins knows about being shut down when Isaac guards him.

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so Curry is empty stat guy? People want Russell here, he is horrible on D. What defensive players does Collins have to work with in Atlanta? Young has everyone blow past him. Stats are always interesting when you look at bad teams. if a team only has 1 good defender and 4 horrible ones, that 1 good defender's stats wont look that great. Now im not calling Collins a great player on D, but here are the scouting reports on him

Defensively, is able to block shots due to his size and long arms … Excellent feel and timing as a help defender … Quick to recover and rotate on defense … Has improved every year at Wake Forest

Despite his shortcomings defensively, Collins did show flashes of potential at times, most notably with his tenacity on the defensive glass. He was able to pull down 9.1 defensive rebounds per 40 minutes and was willing to fight for loose balls in traffic and track down missed shots outside his area. He also blocked 2.4 shots per 40 minutes, a solid mark for a player with his measurables. He showed good timing to get off the ground quickly and recognition of verticality when he was in front of his opponent to alter shots at the rim. It's unlikely he will become a dominant rim protector due to his reach, and he was often swiping at the ball or chasing blocks, but he can definitely grow into a player who makes it difficult for opponents around the rim thanks to his athleticism and natural instincts.

He has good defensive upside and uses his length and leaping ability to alter a lot of shots in the lane. Can defend at the rim and shows good mobility/versatility to guard on the perimeter.

does he need to improve, yes. But many young players do. but he out produces what he gives up, ORTG 121 DRTG 111. as opposed to say someone like Gordon ORTG 104 DRTG 109 or Fournier ORTG 111 DRTG 111.

You're using the basketball reference stats, he much worse based on NBA.com. His net rating is -7.8.

Ken was trying to argue that Bamba and Isaac would fit better with the Hawks ans Collins better with Vuc. I think Vuc, Fournier, and Collins in the same lineup would be really bad defensively.

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[tiderulz]

Empty stats are from a player that can score but can't stop someone else from scoring. The reason i give Isaac the edge is because he can completely shut someone down. Collins knows about being shut down when Isaac guards him.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

so Curry is empty stat guy? People want Russell here, he is horrible on D. What defensive players does Collins have to work with in Atlanta? Young has everyone blow past him. Stats are always interesting when you look at bad teams. if a team only has 1 good defender and 4 horrible ones, that 1 good defender's stats wont look that great. Now im not calling Collins a great player on D, but here are the scouting reports on him

Defensively, is able to block shots due to his size and long arms … Excellent feel and timing as a help defender … Quick to recover and rotate on defense … Has improved every year at Wake Forest

Despite his shortcomings defensively, Collins did show flashes of potential at times, most notably with his tenacity on the defensive glass. He was able to pull down 9.1 defensive rebounds per 40 minutes and was willing to fight for loose balls in traffic and track down missed shots outside his area. He also blocked 2.4 shots per 40 minutes, a solid mark for a player with his measurables. He showed good timing to get off the ground quickly and recognition of verticality when he was in front of his opponent to alter shots at the rim. It's unlikely he will become a dominant rim protector due to his reach, and he was often swiping at the ball or chasing blocks, but he can definitely grow into a player who makes it difficult for opponents around the rim thanks to his athleticism and natural instincts.

He has good defensive upside and uses his length and leaping ability to alter a lot of shots in the lane. Can defend at the rim and shows good mobility/versatility to guard on the perimeter.

does he need to improve, yes. But many young players do. but he out produces what he gives up, ORTG 121 DRTG 111. as opposed to say someone like Gordon ORTG 104 DRTG 109 or Fournier ORTG 111 DRTG 111.

You're using the basketball reference stats, he much worse based on NBA.com. His net rating is -7.8.

Ken was trying to argue that Bamba and Isaac would fit better with the Hawks ans Collins better with Vuc. I think Vuc, Fournier, and Collins in the same lineup would be really bad defensively.

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i can agree that those 3 would not be a stellar lineup defensively. as for stats, who is to say which stat is better or worse, NBA.com or BB reference.

[Bensational]

ORL: Smart + Kanter + Langford

BOS: Vucevic

Bamba/Kanter/Birch
Gordon/Okeke/Aminu
Isaac/Langford/Iwundu
Smart/Ross/(Fournier)
Fultz/MCW


LOL. Bad boys of defense or what? Ok, but wait, let's have fun with this.

Wouldn't it be fun just to watch a Bamba/Gordon/Isaac/Smart/Fultz lineup defend? That's going to lead to a lot of breaks where the entire starting 5 would have fun finishing. Then you get into the halfcourt offense. Bamba is actually needed out for spacing here, which is fine because let's imagine he makes another 3% improvement on his shot next season and he's a reliable 36% shooter. In fact, let's imagine a world where the entire starting 5 hit a 36% 3pt average. Nothing stellar, but an efficient shot still.

Fultz becomes our lead scorer. The kind of guy who can average 23ppg on good efficiency. Smart becomes the secondary playmaker. Now, that still looks like an offensively anaemic team, but with the right plays they should be able to find opportunities to get buckets. With two 7 footers and Gordon on the team, but each of them capable of stepping out to the 3pt line, we could run alternating PnRs with all 3 bigs amidst other plays (curls for the wings on the elbow, cuts, post ups for the bigs, etc). There will be mismatches quite often, where AG can overpower or out-jump his defender, Isaac can get up over his assignment, or when Bamba can hang back for the pick and pop.

Then we get to the bench and it looks instantly improved and much deeper, possibly with stronger scoring than our starters. Hopefully Okeke, Langford and Ross can become a strong scoring trio, but Kanter as a bench C would be huge for depth.

This move sets our base. It doesn't even address what to do with Fournier. We could bring him back as our starting SG and our secondary scorer and bring Smart off the bench as our backup PG. That would make us a lot deeper, too. We could also make further moves, like a deal of Gordon for Wiggins/Oubre/etc for a more traditional SF.

[gumbyr24]

^^ I dont see how that makes any sense for Boston.

[gumbyr24]

Gotta look at front offices that are as desperate and moronic as ours. We need to win a trade.
Vuc for hield/bogdon makes too much sense

[spinedoc]

I like Vuc for Smart and a resigned Kanter, I'd take that. I'd take Vuc for Hield and a swap of first rounders as well. I would love Vuc for Deandre Jordan and Levert, although it would take a pick or two from us. Rozier and Bridges for Vuc would be interesting. Draymond Green and Poole would be fantastic for Vuc. Well, just a few off the top of my head, need to research more.

[Last Guardian]

Weltham needs to get rid of the Hennigan guys and complete their vision of the team. Small additions like Clark and Ennis have made it clear the kind of players they like...tough, athletic and a pain in the ass to play against. True we'll eventually need an offensive star but in the meantime we should be putting together an elite defensive squad that no one wants to play against.

but what is their vision of the team? Long guys who cant shoot?

Pretty much. Length and athleticism and defense at every position, be a team that other teams really don't want to play against. Offense will be a struggle but hey maybe we get lucky and a lot of guys learn to shoot better and Fultz does become that elite playmaker he looks like he could be.

I'd rather be that team than the mess of a team we have now with no identity.

[NBlue]

Would the Kings really go for a Hield for Vooch swap in the offseason? I have no idea. The things about it are the fact that Vlade has apparently always loved Vooch and you can see him fitting with their team though you have to wonder if they see Bagley as a 4 or a 5.They do need money if they are going to resign Bogdo -- I wonder. Would we consider giving up a pick for him -- would they even want a pick from us. That would be the man to target for me and it seems that he is available perhaps for the right price...

[Cosmic_Backlash]

Would the Kings really go for a Hield for Vooch swap in the offseason? I have no idea. The things about it are the fact that Vlade has apparently always loved Vooch and you can see him fitting with their team though you have to wonder if they see Bagley as a 4 or a 5.They do need money if they are going to resign Bogdo -- I wonder. Would we consider giving up a pick for him -- would they even want a pick from us. That would be the man to target for me and it seems that he is available perhaps for the right price...

I posted this on the trade forums a few weeks ago. A few angry Kings fans insisted this would be an awful trade because they see Harry Giles as their future NBA center and had other odd ideas like they didn't need him because they had players like Jabari Parker on the bench. It honestly left me very confused, and I did not understand a single counterargument ha.

That being said, I do think Vuc is still the better player because Buddy is a pretty weak defender... even weaker than Vuc. It would be an interesting trade though and possibly change the dynamics of our team significantly, so I think it would be worth pursuing still.

[Last Guardian]

Would the Kings really go for a Hield for Vooch swap in the offseason? I have no idea. The things about it are the fact that Vlade has apparently always loved Vooch and you can see him fitting with their team though you have to wonder if they see Bagley as a 4 or a 5.They do need money if they are going to resign Bogdo -- I wonder. Would we consider giving up a pick for him -- would they even want a pick from us. That would be the man to target for me and it seems that he is available perhaps for the right price...

I posted this on the trade forums a few weeks ago. A few angry Kings fans insisted this would be an awful trade because they see Harry Giles as their future NBA center and had other odd ideas like they didn't need him because they had players like Jabari Parker on the bench. It honestly left me very confused, and I did not understand a single counterargument ha.

That being said, I do think Vuc is still the better player because Buddy is a pretty weak defender... even weaker than Vuc. It would be an interesting trade though and possibly change the dynamics of our team significantly, so I think it would be worth pursuing still.

If Kings are stupid enough to accept a deal like that, you take it and run.

[zaymon]

Would the Kings really go for a Hield for Vooch swap in the offseason? I have no idea. The things about it are the fact that Vlade has apparently always loved Vooch and you can see him fitting with their team though you have to wonder if they see Bagley as a 4 or a 5.They do need money if they are going to resign Bogdo -- I wonder. Would we consider giving up a pick for him -- would they even want a pick from us. That would be the man to target for me and it seems that he is available perhaps for the right price...

I posted this on the trade forums a few weeks ago. A few angry Kings fans insisted this would be an awful trade because they see Harry Giles as their future NBA center and had other odd ideas like they didn't need him because they had players like Jabari Parker on the bench. It honestly left me very confused, and I did not understand a single counterargument ha.

That being said, I do think Vuc is still the better player because Buddy is a pretty weak defender... even weaker than Vuc. It would be an interesting trade though and possibly change the dynamics of our team significantly, so I think it would be worth pursuing still.

If Kings are stupid enough to accept a deal like that, you take it and run.

I dont think trading good starter for overpriced backup with bad attitude is such a great idea.

[Last Guardian]

I posted this on the trade forums a few weeks ago. A few angry Kings fans insisted this would be an awful trade because they see Harry Giles as their future NBA center and had other odd ideas like they didn't need him because they had players like Jabari Parker on the bench. It honestly left me very confused, and I did not understand a single counterargument ha.

That being said, I do think Vuc is still the better player because Buddy is a pretty weak defender... even weaker than Vuc. It would be an interesting trade though and possibly change the dynamics of our team significantly, so I think it would be worth pursuing still.

If Kings are stupid enough to accept a deal like that, you take it and run.

I dont think trading good starter for overpriced backup with bad attitude is such a great idea.

Hmmm, what do I want... a guard who scores 20ppg on 39% from 3 (with extremely high volume), or a bad defensive C who is soft and shoots jumpers most of the time. I guess if you're a massive homer, you'd take Vuc.

[Max Power]

Has any one of us ever stopped and really contemplated the trade ideas that we put up here? I’m guilty of this too so I’m not ripping anyone for their ideas. We’re always putting up trade ideas for guys on teams similar to ours. Mid range teams at best. I’ll use Buddy Hield as the example since he’s the name of the moment. Has Hield lead the Kings anywhere? They’re a 30 win team like the Magic. I had an epiphany, so how would trades for guys like him, John Collins or an Andre Drummond change the fortunes of our franchise when they have the same situation with their current teams. Just food for thought...our fortunes are better with Clifford and Fultz has been a successful move and we’ve got life in Orlando now, but this team needs some lead dogs who’s won some games.