Better defender: Michael Jordan vs Tim Duncan

[Odinn21]

Try googling greatest defenders ever.

You’ll see what non realgm PC forum opinion is compared to those elsewhere. It’s similar to how different the GOAT debate is.

I did this out of curiosity. This is what I got on page one:

"Soccer defenders" Maldini (P.), Cannavaro (F.), Cafu, Puyol, Roberto Carlos ...

No mention of Beckenbauer or Baresi? What the world has come to... Naming Roberto Carlos or Cafu as the best defenders over those 2 is more blasphemous than this TD vs. MJ thread.

[kuclas]

An elite center/rim protector/deterrent helps a defense so much more than an elite wing defender. Even in today’s spacing 3 pointers game.

So it’s Tim Duncan without question who is the more valuable defender.

[Colbinii]

Please don't do that. Not needed.

Just as an FYI to everyone in this thread. Stay civil and report posts you think are out of bounds.

This is the exact evidence someone uses in most of their posts.

But you are better than that

We should all be better than that but some people have 2k posts with the same information I provided and yet have the audacity to call other people trolls or LeBron Stans or Jordan Haters if they don't agree with Charles Barkley's assessment of a player or aren't basing their opinion off of a youtube highlight of a players career.

Expecting everyone to have the same standards isn't fair. If I want to stoop down to a lower standard for the sake of getting a point across I feel like that should be fair grounds here as I am not breaking any forum rules [as far as I know, though I could be wrong].

I think we should report any post that contains anything involving "Youre a homer, stan, hater, ect" as that is attacking the poster and not the post.

Frankly if you don't have the emotional intelligence and maturity to engage in discussion without calling people homers/haters/stans you shouldn't be allowed to interact on an online forum with other people.

edit: This isn't directed at you or anyone, just an observation

[trex_8063]

Some specificity in OP on what is being asked is required, imo.

If you're asking who is better relative to positional standard or average [i.e. MJ vs other SG's, Duncan vs other C's [or PF's]], then we might have a debate.

But the way it's worded is frequently going to interpreted as "who is more valuable defensively?" or "who has greater defensive impact?" (which is obviously the case based on some of the first few replies). In that regard, I have a hard time giving this to MJ (and thus is obviously skewed in Duncan's favour)......but that would be true of several [if not dozens] of PF/C's. The best defensive SG simply cannot match the defensive imprint of some of the best defensive C's; it stems from the difference in role.

[70sFan]

Some specificity in OP on what is being asked is required, imo.

If you're asking who is better relative to positional standard or average [i.e. MJ vs other SG's, Duncan vs other C's [or PF's]], then we might have a debate.

But the way it's worded is frequently going to interpreted as "who is more valuable defensively?" or "who has greater defensive impact?" (which is obviously the case based on some of the first few replies).
In that regard, I have a hard time giving this to MJ (and thus is obviously skewed in Duncan's favour)......but that would be true of several [if not dozens] of PF/C's. The best defensive SG simply cannot match the defensive imprint of some of the best defensive C's; it stems from the difference in role.

When people make offensive comparisons they never adjust for position, so I'd assume the same here. There is no reason to look at this relative to positions, unless it's directly this kind of ask.

Nobody ever said that Kareem was better than Magic offensively because he was better relative to the rest of centers than Johnson to other PGs.

[trex_8063]

Some specificity in OP on what is being asked is required, imo.

If you're asking who is better relative to positional standard or average [i.e. MJ vs other SG's, Duncan vs other C's [or PF's]], then we might have a debate.

But the way it's worded is frequently going to interpreted as "who is more valuable defensively?" or "who has greater defensive impact?" (which is obviously the case based on some of the first few replies).
In that regard, I have a hard time giving this to MJ (and thus is obviously skewed in Duncan's favour)......but that would be true of several [if not dozens] of PF/C's. The best defensive SG simply cannot match the defensive imprint of some of the best defensive C's; it stems from the difference in role.

When people make offensive comparisons they never adjust for position, so I'd assume the same here. There is no reason to look at this relative to positions, unless it's directly this kind of ask.

Nobody ever said that Kareem was better than Magic offensively because he was better relative to the rest of centers than Johnson to other PGs.

I'm not jumping in taking sides in a dispute here. I'm just saying: it's not altogether clear what is being asked.
Who had bigger defensive impact? I think that's Duncan rather easily.
Who was better relative to their position? idk, it's debatable.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Some specificity in OP on what is being asked is required, imo.

If you're asking who is better relative to positional standard or average [i.e. MJ vs other SG's, Duncan vs other C's [or PF's]], then we might have a debate.

But the way it's worded is frequently going to interpreted as "who is more valuable defensively?" or "who has greater defensive impact?" (which is obviously the case based on some of the first few replies).
In that regard, I have a hard time giving this to MJ (and thus is obviously skewed in Duncan's favour)......but that would be true of several [if not dozens] of PF/C's. The best defensive SG simply cannot match the defensive imprint of some of the best defensive C's; it stems from the difference in role.

When people make offensive comparisons they never adjust for position, so I'd assume the same here. There is no reason to look at this relative to positions, unless it's directly this kind of ask.

Nobody ever said that Kareem was better than Magic offensively because he was better relative to the rest of centers than Johnson to other PGs.

The issue I see is that you absolutely need great perimeter defenders to have a great defense. And a great perimeter defender will always contribute, while there all time great interior defenders, who are dominant against certain offenses, who could be attacked
by some others. For instance, many fantastic rim protectors would become negatives against a real 5 out offense and a smallball/shooting center.

[Texas Chuck]

If one member posts something and its considered trolling while that same thing can be posted by another and its viewed as an honest argument, how is that fair? Post content should be viewed independent of the poster, imo.

I actually disagree. Posting terrible arguments with sincerity to be isn't as big of a negative as doing so with none. I mean sometimes a sarcastic or tongue in cheek post to make a point is appropriate, but if I believe someone to be sincere, but misguided I cut them a lot more slack than someone intentionally being disingenous(sp).

For those posters with known agenda willing to regularly twist and mislead I do my best to simply not engage with them on certain topics or for the worst offenders at all. But I know I've made a lot of really terrible arguments on this board in full sincerity but with a great deal of ignorance or misunderstanding.

On this topic for instance I get there are those who truly believe Mike to be a better defender because they grew up idolizing him and being told ad nauseam that he was the best player in the world hands down and that he was the best defensive player because he was just so competitive and they can remember him really digging down into his stance etc....

They aren't right, but they really believe it and many of them mean no harm. Others clearly have an agenda and everything must be taken through that filter just like if we are discussing JJ Barea and I'm saying he's one of the all-time great PNR guards people should understand I'm not totally objective perhaps.


Anyway too many words to say for me personally intentionally trolling is worse than just being ignorant or ill-informed. Hopefully those people will be open-minded enough to realize what they used to be told by Marv wasn't as true as they thought.

[Texas Chuck]

Who was better relative to their position? idk, it's debatable.

I'd say it's still pretty clearly Duncan. No knock on Mike but we all know that historically any star perimeter player who even tried defensively tends to get really overrated defensively. Mike was actually pretty good, but guys like Kobe, Wade, Tmac get talked about by their fans as if they were these high impact defenders when for much of their careers they weren't even neutral.

And I don't even mean that as a negative towards those players who all had to carry massive offensive loads--just not realistic to expect them to also be super high impact defenders game in and game out on top of it. Their energies were much more valuable when directed primarily at the offensive end.

Duncan had some years where he had to carry the Spurs offensively, but relatively few really. Which hurts him typically in a GOAT conversation because he simply doesn't have the offensive numbers most require, but on the flip side it should remove any doubt that he was the best defensive player of a generation that included some really high impact big men. If he had the DPOY's he deserved this wouldn't be a debate but because media likes the easy--Ben Wallace and his cartoon muscles, Dwight Howard and his superman bit, or they overvalue Bruce Bowen he doesn't have the accolades.

[Whopper_Sr]

Duncan is at worst a top 5 defender ever with only Russell ahead. Russell, Duncan, Garnett plus two of Wilt/Hakeem/Robinson would be my top 5.

Jordan, while a fantastic man defender with large/quick hands, was not capable of anchoring a defense which highlights help defense, rotations, screening, etc. If you pit him against other GUARDS (not wings like Pippen, LeBron, Kirilenko, etc), he has a great case although it still wouldn't be clear cut at all. His case gets further weakened when compared to elite defensive wings that provide more rim protection and have the ability to guard both quicker guards and taller big men while also giving you what Jordan gives you.

An interesting discussion would be, "Is Jordan's edge on offense bigger than Duncan's edge on defense?" That's a tough one but I see myself favoring Duncan's defensive impact edging out Jordan's advantages on the offensive end.

[mademan]

The only wing you can even begin to debate against a premier big defender is Giannis. And Giannis isnt really a wing. And Duncan isnt just a premier big defender, he's arguably a top 5 defender of all time.

[70sFan]

Some specificity in OP on what is being asked is required, imo.

If you're asking who is better relative to positional standard or average [i.e. MJ vs other SG's, Duncan vs other C's [or PF's]], then we might have a debate.

But the way it's worded is frequently going to interpreted as "who is more valuable defensively?" or "who has greater defensive impact?" (which is obviously the case based on some of the first few replies).
In that regard, I have a hard time giving this to MJ (and thus is obviously skewed in Duncan's favour)......but that would be true of several [if not dozens] of PF/C's. The best defensive SG simply cannot match the defensive imprint of some of the best defensive C's; it stems from the difference in role.

When people make offensive comparisons they never adjust for position, so I'd assume the same here. There is no reason to look at this relative to positions, unless it's directly this kind of ask.

Nobody ever said that Kareem was better than Magic offensively because he was better relative to the rest of centers than Johnson to other PGs.

The issue I see is that you absolutely need great perimeter defenders to have a great defense. And a great perimeter defender will always contribute, while there all time great interior defenders, who are dominant against certain offenses, who could be attacked
by some others. For instance, many fantastic rim protectors would become negatives against a real 5 out offense and a smallball/shooting center.

When did that happen actually? Today the best defenders are still rim protectors, even against 5 out offenses.
Good perimeter defender can be switched to big too and he would fare just as badly (if not worse) than interior defender on perimeter.

[trex_8063]

When people make offensive comparisons they never adjust for position, so I'd assume the same here. There is no reason to look at this relative to positions, unless it's directly this kind of ask.

Nobody ever said that Kareem was better than Magic offensively because he was better relative to the rest of centers than Johnson to other PGs.

The issue I see is that you absolutely need great perimeter defenders to have a great defense. And a great perimeter defender will always contribute, while there all time great interior defenders, who are dominant against certain offenses, who could be attacked
by some others. For instance, many fantastic rim protectors would become negatives against a real 5 out offense and a smallball/shooting center.

When did that happen actually? Today the best defenders are still rim protectors, even against 5 out offenses.
Good perimeter defender can be switched to big too and he would fare just as badly (if not worse) than interior defender on perimeter.

And sometimes team perimeter defense is, ironically, tied to a rim protecting big. I'm a big Utah and Rudy Gobert fan, admittedly, but it's nonetheless a good example....

This season Jazz opponents take the 27th-most 3PA's per game (2.2 fewer attempts per game than league avg; tied for 24th-most in pace-adjusted), while also shooting only the 27th-best 3P% (1.4% worse than league avg).
Last season, Jazz opponents shot exactly the league avg in terms of 3P%, but took the league-lowest 3PA/game (4.3 fewer attempts than league avg; league-lowest in pace-adjusted too).

What's this got to do with Gobert? It's because the team strategy has been to err on the side of heavy contest on outside shots [or even chase them off the line], because Rudy's got your back if you then get burned on the drive.

[HeartBreakKid]

Having a strong rim protector always affects a defense regardless if they are a jump shooting team or not. If teams won't go into the paint then that means the perimeter players can over play the 3 point shot.



Also, how the heck is Tim Duncan a modern player - him and Michael Jordan were top 5 players in the league at one point.


Relative to their position it's still easily Tim Duncan. Center is the easiest position to make defensive impact from and Tim Duncan gives you all time great center impact while playing power forward. Duncan/Garnett are much more freakish outliers at the 4 than anyone else at any other position (perhaps bar Jason Kidd and Bill Russell)- so much to the point that when ever a really great defensive 4 comes around people say "he's not a real defensive anchor ,not like Duncan/Garnett" - they have skewered the standards for what makes a great defensive 4.

Jordan is not any better of a defender than Tony Allen, Sidney Moncrief or Andre Iguodalla - and even if we did give him the nod, it's not by such a large margin. You would never confuse Jordan with the all time great defensive small forwards. Duncan fits right in there with Robinsons, Ewings, Olajuwons, Waltons, Howards, Goberts etc - Jordan does not fit in with AK-47, Scottie Pippen, Metta World Peace, Kawhi Leonard, and to hopefully not trigger anyone - peak Lebron James. His team defense is not on the level of the elite defensive small forwards. He does not affect the game in the same manner as those small forwards.

John Havilcek, who while a small forward is of comparable size to Jordan can affect more plays more often than Jordan could, and people forget about him all the time - much less the authentic sized front court players.

[Baski]

Oh no you don't! This is our thing! Ours! Let us have this. Don't put Duncan on bled's radar.





Please.










Also Duncan all day

[LakerLegend]

Having a strong rim protector always affects a defense regardless if they are a jump shooting team or not. If teams won't go into the paint then that means the perimeter players can over play the 3 point shot.



Also, how the heck is Tim Duncan a modern player - him and Michael Jordan were top 5 players in the league at one point.


Relative to their position it's still easily Tim Duncan. Center is the easiest position to make defensive impact from and Tim Duncan gives you all time great center impact while playing power forward. Duncan/Garnett are much more freakish outliers at the 4 than anyone else at any other position (perhaps bar Jason Kidd and Bill Russell)- so much to the point that when ever a really great defensive 4 comes around people say "he's not a real defensive anchor ,not like Duncan/Garnett" - they have skewered the standards for what makes a great defensive 4.

Jordan is not any better of a defender than Tony Allen, Sidney Moncrief or Andre Iguodalla - and even if we did give him the nod, it's not by such a large margin. You would never confuse Jordan with the all time great defensive small forwards. Duncan fits right in there with Robinsons, Ewings, Olajuwons, Waltons, Howards, Goberts etc - Jordan does not fit in with AK-47, Scottie Pippen, Metta World Peace, Kawhi Leonard, and to hopefully not trigger anyone - peak Lebron James. His team defense is not on the level of the elite defensive small forwards. He does not affect the game in the same manner as those small forwards.

John Havilcek, who while a small forward is of comparable size to Jordan can affect more plays more often than Jordan could, and people forget about him all the time - much less the authentic sized front court players.

Nonsense.....Jordan and Pippen anchored those Bulls teams who were better defensively than almost everybody.

[Texas Chuck]

Having a strong rim protector always affects a defense regardless if they are a jump shooting team or not. If teams won't go into the paint then that means the perimeter players can over play the 3 point shot.



Also, how the heck is Tim Duncan a modern player - him and Michael Jordan were top 5 players in the league at one point.


Relative to their position it's still easily Tim Duncan. Center is the easiest position to make defensive impact from and Tim Duncan gives you all time great center impact while playing power forward. Duncan/Garnett are much more freakish outliers at the 4 than anyone else at any other position (perhaps bar Jason Kidd and Bill Russell)- so much to the point that when ever a really great defensive 4 comes around people say "he's not a real defensive anchor ,not like Duncan/Garnett" - they have skewered the standards for what makes a great defensive 4.

Jordan is not any better of a defender than Tony Allen, Sidney Moncrief or Andre Iguodalla - and even if we did give him the nod, it's not by such a large margin. You would never confuse Jordan with the all time great defensive small forwards. Duncan fits right in there with Robinsons, Ewings, Olajuwons, Waltons, Howards, Goberts etc - Jordan does not fit in with AK-47, Scottie Pippen, Metta World Peace, Kawhi Leonard, and to hopefully not trigger anyone - peak Lebron James. His team defense is not on the level of the elite defensive small forwards. He does not affect the game in the same manner as those small forwards.

John Havilcek, who while a small forward is of comparable size to Jordan can affect more plays more often than Jordan could, and people forget about him all the time - much less the authentic sized front court players.

Nonsense.....Jordan and Pippen anchored those Bulls teams who were better defensively than almost everybody.

And Grant or Rodman/Harper.

Jordan was part of it to be sure, but by no means was he doing the heavy lifting. Again this was a narrative driven for a long long time so I get why people believe it, but he was playing 80 games every year at heavy minutes with very high usage. He wasn't also defending at an elite level play in and play out anywhere near to the degree of Tim Duncan. Or even Pippen on his own team. Pippen was the guy who was just totally destroying the other teams' abilities to even get into offensive sets. Not Mike.

[Bidofo]

Award voting is just such a lazy cop out. Requires absolutely no thinking, and the same goes for blindly listening to media members/other NBA players.

Funny enough here is a conversation I had with bled prior which I think highlights the points the "Duncan-camp" is making:

Spoiler:

I think there is a 0% chance Jordan's impact on defense in the late 80s was anything close to prime Duncan. This article is a pretty good analysis of his career, and as you mention later, Jordan was very gamble-prone is first few years. It tightened up eventually ofc, but Duncan was consistently leading top tier defenses, showed very well in RAPM, showed up in the playoffs, etc. And yea, as a big man, that constant (which I think is key, Duncan is essentially always there, especially before the advent of stretch bigs) rim protecting is infinitely more valuable than the occasional block Jordan gets.

As for the DPOY, I don't wanna start a whole debate on it lol but I'll just say there is little to indicate Jordan was better than Hakeem or Eaton that year.


Funnily enough, 92 and 93 Jordan are probably the worst years defensively for him, in 93 particularly the coasting was extreme. I thought 96-98 he brought back the intensity a bit, it might even be his best three year stretch, competing with 88-91 ofc. But no I do not see how any of those years was better than an average prime Duncan season.

lol 0 percent.
I’m not surprised to see such a biased post from you. Put your money where your mouth is and link me to a single game where duncan has a greater impact than the oneI provided at the bottom of my post. I prefer facts and evidence, not hyperbole and fabricated revisionist history.

This is one of my favorite defensive showings of Jordan. But he had many- show me another perimeter player making this kind of impact, changing a single game, in video. Link me to duncan if you’d like.

Watch on YouTube

I've never seen someone more unaware of what a highlight reel is than you. No **** a youtube video is gonna show all his defensive excellence, why would they show his mistakes? There are so many plays in basketball that a video cannot capture, and yes that means the plays where Jordan gambles and misses, or loses his offball assignment, etc. Posting a highlight reel is LITERALLY revisionist history because you actually think it shows everything Jordan did in a game when there is much more A highlight reel is not conclusive enough to determine Jordan is a better defender. His defense didn't show up in his team's performance, while Duncan's did. Even by eye test Duncan was better, if you know what you're looking at.

Don't act as if it's hard to find defense highlights of Duncan lol if you were any interested in good-faith discussion you would have searched it up yourself and get a reminder to how dominant he was on that end. I searched up Duncan defense on youtube and here's the second result:

Watch on YouTube

A 40-yr old past his prime Duncan playing excellent defense against the athletic Thunder. And yet that STILL wouldn't convince me of anything because it's one damn game that cherrypicks his good moments, not his bad. You're just full of arguments that don't make the slightest bit of sense.

and also some bits about Jordan vs. Eaton for the 88 DPOTY:

Spoiler:

I’m not surprised to see such a biased post from you.

Eaton and Hakeem were better?

Just to shed light on the voting that year and provide perspective -

1. Jordan 37 votes
2. Eaton 9 votes

The rest have 6 and then4 votes each Max. Jordan absolutely dominated that year and did something that hadn’t been seen before at shooting guard, blocking centers, picking passes and changing the trajectory of the game. No way in hell can you definitively call duncan better than 88 Jordan.

Honestly I thought I was being as non-confrontational as I could have been lol.

Yea I know about the voting, that doesn't mean it made sense. In that day and age, do you think the media was paying as much attention to Mark Eaton in SALT LAKE CITY of all places as they were to Michael Jordan, the prodigal heir?

What is unbiased tho is the fact that the 88 Bulls were a -2.5 defense, meaning they were 2.5 points better than the league average defense per 100 possessions. He also at the very least had a guy like Oakley behind him in the paint. Meanwhile, the 88 Jazz were 2.2 points better than the second best defense. That's right, the difference between the Eaton-led Jazz and second best defense is almost the same as the Bull's defense and league average. Compared to league average, the Jazz were a -4.9 defense, and they had no one beside Eaton that was better than Oakley.

You're whole argument is based on a biased voting! Gonna take a guess and say you didn't read the article I shared?

And yea, it's very easy for me to say Duncan was definitely better than 88 Jordan. Watch:
Duncan absolutely dominated every year of his career and did something that hadn't been seen before at power forward, blocking shots, keeping absolutely fundamental positioning, great awareness and timing and changing the trajectory of the game. No way in hell can you definitively call jordan better than any Duncan.

See, easy to make arguments when backed by flimsy evidence.

Apparently Jordan was better defensively than Hakeem too.

This thread was made in vain. Some people's minds cannot be changed.

[Drylick]

Duncan is MORE IMPACTFUL. That is different from the word 'BETTER'.

Relative to position, Jordan trumps all. That's why he's proclaimed as the GOAT.

[Drylick]

John Havilcek, who while a small forward is of comparable size to Jordan can affect more plays more often than Jordan could, and people forget about him all the time - much less the authentic sized front court players.

And there is NO WAY that Hondo is better than Jordan on defense.

Impactful =/= better.