Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 IV: The Offense is Offensive

[pepe1991]

Magic in their history are below .500 wins team so it's nothing suprising,with or without Vučević that they most of the time are nowhere.
In whole team's history team won 60 games once, 50 games 7 times.
In mean time 9 times they had at least 50 Ls.

Both times team was relevant, star player went to Lakers.

In between there was fun mediocrity era with Tracy that was similar to Westbrook's OKC solo ride era. Crazy usage, crazy stats, easy rout in playoffs. Kind a entertaining, but directionless.



Unrealistic expetations from franchise that is used as polygon for Ponzi scheme company. Tracy , Shaq and i think even Dwight said that he never got feeling that Orlando actually wanted compeat for a title.
They make fun little teams, go nowhere, try again, make money, pay bills.

The Magic are below .500 because of the Vucevic era. We had a .522 win percentage before the Howard trade. We have a .261 win percentage since. We made the playoffs in 14 of 23 seasons before Vucevic's arrival. We had a losing record in only 7 of those 23 seasons.

Vucevic isn't the lone cause for the failures of the franchise in the post-Dwight era, but he should certainly bear the brunt of the criticism directed at the playing personnel due to his role and compensation. I can completely understand Vucevic's desire for stardom and the rewards that go along with it, but I'm a fan of the Orlando Magic and I'd rather some other organization suffered the consequences of allowing him unfettered access to his pursuits.

The entire purpose of the salary cap is to maintain some level of parity. This franchise's irrelevance is not a fait accompli due to forces beyond its control, but rather it is the product of its own incompetence. We have mismanaged our assets. The blame for this should not be directed externally.

I was gonna say, I feel like we were an above average team historically despite being relatively young still in the NBA before Dwight left. This era has turned us into a joke. No it isn't Vucevic/Fournier/Gordon's fault. But it is what it is at some point you can't keep giving out contracts to guys because they put up stats.

I get playing devil's advocate but the whole "well the Magic were never really that good before ____ came along anyway" is something I didn't expect to see.

Main problem is inability to draft ,sign or trade for actual star.

Magic tried to move Vučević more than once, brought 2 replacments. Biyombo and Bamba. Both suck/ed so he stayed by default.

Hennigan trades of Oladipo and Harris wracked first rebuild.
Only year when we had salary cap to actually do anything we signed Biyombo and Green, probably because nobody else had interest in comming over.

We also keep getting same type of coaches. Defensive minded guy who treat offense as aftertought.
We also keep drafting athletes over basketball players and are suprised when they suck for years and have to learn basics of sport that they are payed millions to play.
And we keep acting like this is not jumpshot era, especially at PG position where literally all best PGs in NBA are amazing shooters.
It's pattern that goes for almost a decade now.

I said lot of times that i would not build around center and i would never draft center in lottery if he isn't some 100% legit - Embiid type of guy.
I belive that wing is most important position in nba, as nowdays wings do basically same things as guards, just are bigger, stronger and therefore more reliable.

[swarlesbarkley]

You just proved both of my points while contradicting your self. Neat

1, Cliff runs a lot of pick and pop play for him:
- This would require knowing how to get to the right spots which you said I "made up". But a rudimentary 5th grade basketball skill
indeed. Maybe Mo should pay attention.

2. Defenses literally want him at the 3pt line so he's not down low for easier buckets and rebounds.
- "teams are playing the percentages" That's what this means.

It doesn't matter how he gets open, He's spreading the floor. Thats 100% fact. His presence allows Fultz and AG to play to their strengths. I know it pains both of you to admit it.

It's fine, man. You can think I proved your point. You think knowing how to set a pick and then pop out instead of rolling to the hoop (which we've already established is usually packed because our team lacks shooters) and moving to an open spot on the court because the defense wants you to be out there are skills worthy of saying he "knows how to get open" and we should applaud him.

I think those are fundamental skills that all NBA players have.

But if the bar is that low, I guess this Magic team wouldn't seem that disappointing.

I KNOW you did..... unless you have reading comprehension issues.

Again, if the bar you've set for applauding a player for "knowing how to get open" is simply that he knows how to pop on a pick and pop, that's a super low bar. If that's your standard, I understand why you defend Vuc so hard you come off like a jerk. He probably seems like the greatest player ever.

And the original point I was making was that you said another poster was "making **** up" about Vuc and, in turn, you said Vuc knows how to get open, which is subjective at best since defenses are literally leaving him open. Basically you got mad at someone else for "making **** up" while then also making up stuff in Vuc's defense. Then you said "learn basketball". It was just a pretty rough sequence for you in terms of discussion and communication.

[swarlesbarkley]

We also keep getting same type of coaches. Defensive minded guy who treat offense as aftertought.
We also keep drafting athletes over basketball players and are suprised when they suck for years and have to learn basics of sport that they are payed millions to play.
And we keep acting like this is not jumpshot era, especially at PG position where literally all best PGs in NBA are amazing shooters.
It's pattern that goes for almost a decade now.

This is what really gets me. We drafted high defensive ceiling guys then hired a handful of defense-minded coaches. Maybe we should hire an offensive-minded coach to teach them that side of floor while letting their natural abilities take control of the defensive side?

It's the same argument I have with my Minnesota Vikings fans. We've spent a TON of draft capital on defensive players and then we pair them with a defensive coach. Of course we'll have a good defense! At this point, with the amount of talent and draft stock we've put into the defense, any coach should be able to get close to the same output on defense.

I just don't understand why we've doubled down on one side of the ball.

[KillMonger]

it seems like Vuc is the linchpin for the blame simply because he's the highest payed player and some of that is warranted...... however are we going to act like there have been Centers in recent memory that's able to carry a team far by Himself without there being other players as good or better there with him? The biggest problem is the roster construction, that's the main issue with this team that needs to be fixed asap.....i mean there is A LOT of blame to be handed out and some posters here seem to focus on Vuc but AG is getting a pass? T-Ross is getting a pass? our bench gets a pass? like there are multiples holes in the ship so for me ultimately it's the F.O fault for not having the cojones to pull the plug. I mean have you read Hammond/Weltman's interview recently? some of those comments border on delusion and is the more serious problem but yeah let's blame the surface level issues.

[Bensational]

it seems like Vuc is the linchpin for the blame simply because he's the highest payed player and some of that is warranted...... however are we going to act like there have been Centers in recent memory that's able to carry a team far by Himself without there being other players as good or better there with him? The biggest problem is the roster construction, that's the main issue with this team that needs to be fixed asap.....i mean there is A LOT of blame to be handed out and some posters here seem to focus on Vuc but AG is getting a pass? T-Ross is getting a pass? our bench gets a pass? like there are multiples holes in the ship so for me ultimately it's the F.O fault for not having the cojones to pull the plug. I mean have you read Hammond/Weltman's interview recently? some of those comments border on delusion and is the more serious problem but yeah let's blame the surface level issues.

The notion of an 'imbalanced' roster is something that gets flown around a lot here, but I find it such an empty statement which has been trotted out for years. What are the missing ingredients for balance? 3 point shooting? In that case, shouldn't our lineups with Vuc/Gordon/Ross/Fournier/Fultz offer us that balance, and in that case, shouldn't that lineup be dramatically better than anything else we put on the floor? Well, it's not. It's marginally better than lineups with Birch or Iwundu instead of Ross, but they are all net negatives. Then there are lineups with Vuc/Birch/Gordon/Iwundu/Fultz that are actually dramatically better than those, which are big net positives over multiple games.

Besides, how many different iterations of this Magic roster have we tried with Vuc, trying to find 'balance'? We've tried him with Harris, Smith, Gordon, Ilyasova, Ibaka, Gordon again, Isaac. We tried him with Oladipo, Payton, DJ and Fultz in the backcourt. Only one season has been a successful season (in terms of winning games, not losing your way into an 8th seed), and that was in his contract year.

And yes, Gordon has been incredibly underwhelming this season. There really isn't a debate about that. The reason he gets a pass from me is because Vuc has been given the advantage of trying as many combinations of players around him for so many years, but Gordon hasn't. I would like to see what Gordon looks like in a non-Vuc team for a good season before moving him out, rather than watching him on another team in that role and discovering there were better ways to use him. Not building around Gordon or making him a top 2 option, mind you. One good perimeter player might finally force Gordon to settle into an off-ball role that sees him taking better looking shots.

The other reason is because the 'balance' problem is purely just a 'talent' problem. Swap Vuc for Luka, and suddenly all our other pieces probably fit a lot better. Luka and Birch would probably be better than Vuc and Fournier. Luka and Bamba probably better than that. And that's why Vuc (and Gordon and Fournier, too) take a lot of the blame, because they are the 'talent', the 'stars' that we've invested money into. Vuc has seen the biggest investment of all. He's paid in the realm of other actual star players, but he doesn't contribute at their level. And because of that, he should be the primary target to flip for an alternative top option. We're clearly not getting Luka for Vuc in a trade, or anyone as obviously talented as him. And when the team posts a better record without him, then you really need to question his value to the team.

You said yourself, how many C's can carry a team themselves? That's the point. It's not the era of big men, and really only Embiid and Jokic look like players of that calibre right now. Vuc is nowhere near their tier, so why are we trying to build a competitive team behind a 3rd-rate #1 option? And if the answer is "we're not trying to build around him", then the next question is - then why are we so protective about keeping him?

I think it needs to be drilled home again - when Vuc went down, we were 5-6 (.459) without him. The record with him is 19-26 (.422). That's not the mark of a difference maker worth $100M over 4 seasons. The record without Gordon, for context, is 2-4 (.333), and with him 22-28 (.455).

[The Effect]

it seems like Vuc is the linchpin for the blame simply because he's the highest payed player and some of that is warranted...... however are we going to act like there have been Centers in recent memory that's able to carry a team far by Himself without there being other players as good or better there with him? The biggest problem is the roster construction, that's the main issue with this team that needs to be fixed asap.....i mean there is A LOT of blame to be handed out and some posters here seem to focus on Vuc but AG is getting a pass? T-Ross is getting a pass? our bench gets a pass? like there are multiples holes in the ship so for me ultimately it's the F.O fault for not having the cojones to pull the plug. I mean have you read Hammond/Weltman's interview recently? some of those comments border on delusion and is the more serious problem but yeah let's blame the surface level issues.

Its not just Vuc, everyone is too blame and sadly the biggest issue with this team, the way its constructed right now is the FO plays it way to safe and would rather be the 8 seed every year than try to hit it big in the lotto and thus they keep bringing back the same team every year (Vuc, AG, Ross, Evan). I know whats happened in the past, but the way the team is built right now, we will never be more than .500 type team because we are missing the 2 biggest things every good team needs
1 - A true superstar. Like it or not, but this is a superstar driven league, and if you dont have a true superstar, youre never going to be a true contender. Not only do superstars take over games and win them for you, but they attract other top players. Look at the mavs, they were horrible a few years ago, then they added Luka, and since then they were able to get another star and now are a potential 50win team in the west. 2 years!

2 - A true scorer! We dont have a guy on the roster we can say "Go get us a basket" and have faith that they will score. Vuc is just a guy. Evan is at best a secondary piece on a decent team or a 3rd guy on a good team. AG is a role player who hasnt figured out what that role is. Isaac (when he actually plays, which is rare) is a defensive guy with limited offense. Ross is our streaky bench guy. Our only hope is that Fultz regains the offensive game he had in college, which is possible, and has shown glimpses of it, but in 2020, its not there yet.

We need to find a way to rebuild around Fultz as hes the only guy with the potential to be both those 2 things, everyone else should be available. WOuld be great to get rid of Vuc, but i doubt that is even a possibility (no one wanted him when he was 26, making 13m, sure as hell wont want him when hes 30 and making 28m), Let Evan walk, but with them not trading him at the deadline, i doubt they have any ideas of letting him leave for nothing. AG is a good player on a good contract, but hes not untouchable, and if we could get something of value for him, you have to take it. I know most wont agree with me, but im not just blindly giving Isaac a max deal with his offense and injury history. I get hes a top defensive player, but what good is that when hes missing 40-50 games every year.

None of this will happen, so we might as well get used to 7th/8th seeds, we are gonna be striving for that for the next 5-6 seasons

[zaymon]

I dont know how so many of you can watch Gordon play and not think he is the main reason why we are struggling. How is it possible that despite all of the easy dunks he gets his TS% is 0.501? He cant post up, he cant blow past anyone, he misses almost everything near the rim not being a dunk. Rookie Brandon Clarke is looking like prime Michael Jordan next to AG. Everyone thought thats becouse he plays out of position, but the truth is Gordon is worse as a 4. There is no mismatch potential, becouse Gordons handle and decision making is terrible. As a 3, he can at least establish a position under the rim and dunk. Your 4 needs to be a good help defender to function, and AG is average at best. The reason why Clifford played Birch is becouse Gordon is a bad 3, but even worse 4.
Isaac showed how a true 4 should play and its like night and day. Even Harden struggled with 2 bad shooters in the lineup and we wonder why we lose all the time with Fultz, Gordon and Birch/Iwundu ? I have been writing this for the last 2 years, Gordon is our biggest problem.

[basketballRob]

it seems like Vuc is the linchpin for the blame simply because he's the highest payed player and some of that is warranted...... however are we going to act like there have been Centers in recent memory that's able to carry a team far by Himself without there being other players as good or better there with him? The biggest problem is the roster construction, that's the main issue with this team that needs to be fixed asap.....i mean there is A LOT of blame to be handed out and some posters here seem to focus on Vuc but AG is getting a pass? T-Ross is getting a pass? our bench gets a pass? like there are multiples holes in the ship so for me ultimately it's the F.O fault for not having the cojones to pull the plug. I mean have you read Hammond/Weltman's interview recently? some of those comments border on delusion and is the more serious problem but yeah let's blame the surface level issues.

The notion of an 'imbalanced' roster is something that gets flown around a lot here, but I find it such an empty statement which has been trotted out for years. What are the missing ingredients for balance? 3 point shooting? In that case, shouldn't our lineups with Vuc/Gordon/Ross/Fournier/Fultz offer us that balance, and in that case, shouldn't that lineup be dramatically better than anything else we put on the floor? Well, it's not. It's marginally better than lineups with Birch or Iwundu instead of Ross, but they are all net negatives. Then there are lineups with Vuc/Birch/Gordon/Iwundu/Fultz that are actually dramatically better than those, which are big net positives over multiple games.

Besides, how many different iterations of this Magic roster have we tried with Vuc, trying to find 'balance'? We've tried him with Harris, Smith, Gordon, Ilyasova, Ibaka, Gordon again, Isaac. We tried him with Oladipo, Payton, DJ and Fultz in the backcourt. Only one season has been a successful season (in terms of winning games, not losing your way into an 8th seed), and that was in his contract year.

And yes, Gordon has been incredibly underwhelming this season. There really isn't a debate about that. The reason he gets a pass from me is because Vuc has been given the advantage of trying as many combinations of players around him for so many years, but Gordon hasn't. I would like to see what Gordon looks like in a non-Vuc team for a good season before moving him out, rather than watching him on another team in that role and discovering there were better ways to use him. Not building around Gordon or making him a top 2 option, mind you. One good perimeter player might finally force Gordon to settle into an off-ball role that sees him taking better looking shots.

The other reason is because the 'balance' problem is purely just a 'talent' problem. Swap Vuc for Luka, and suddenly all our other pieces probably fit a lot better. Luka and Birch would probably be better than Vuc and Fournier. Luka and Bamba probably better than that. And that's why Vuc (and Gordon and Fournier, too) take a lot of the blame, because they are the 'talent', the 'stars' that we've invested money into. Vuc has seen the biggest investment of all. He's paid in the realm of other actual star players, but he doesn't contribute at their level. And because of that, he should be the primary target to flip for an alternative top option. We're clearly not getting Luka for Vuc in a trade, or anyone as obviously talented as him. And when the team posts a better record without him, then you really need to question his value to the team.

You said yourself, how many C's can carry a team themselves? That's the point. It's not the era of big men, and really only Embiid and Jokic look like players of that calibre right now. Vuc is nowhere near their tier, so why are we trying to build a competitive team behind a 3rd-rate #1 option? And if the answer is "we're not trying to build around him", then the next question is - then why are we so protective about keeping him?

I think it needs to be drilled home again - when Vuc went down, we were 5-6 (.459) without him. The record with him is 19-26 (.422). That's not the mark of a difference maker worth $100M over 4 seasons. The record without Gordon, for context, is 2-4 (.333), and with him 22-28 (.455).

One game without Fournier was a win against the Lakers in L.A.

Stats don't always equate to wins.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

[SOUL]

New thread please