Celtics 2020-21 Roster, Assemble Using Current Info

[djFan71]

My preference, not necessarily my prediction:

Hayward / Kemba / Brown / Tatum / Theis
Smart / Langford / MLE vet* / G-Will / R-Will

*Best 3&D wing available

Hayward opts in then extends. Draft MEM 1st. Let Semi, Kanter, Green, and Wanamaker walk.
Sign Waters to a regular contract as third string PG. Sign 2nd rounder to two-way contract.

Package Edwards, Poirier, BOS 1st and/or MIL 1st and get best vet available on a cheap multi-year contract. If Poirier goes, let Tacko take the end-of-bench seat.

If we don't repeat as champions in 2021, I will be disappointed.

Pretty much where I'm at. Depending on Gordon $, you may be only doing one of the trade / MLE vets to keep under the tax. Rest is rounded with cheap rookie contracts. Wouldn't be shocked if Kanter opts in, though.

That's one of my main reasons for wanting Hayward gone.
1. He costs too much. -- That money can go to other players.
2. And he's redundant.

I'm torn. I'm usually a staunch supporter of the Church of Zoya readings from the Book of Advanced Hayward stats. But, paying 4 near maxes is tough. Ironically, if we could deconsolidate Hayward into 1 starter level and 1 rotation level guy, it could be a win.

Opt-in extend for Myles Turner / McDermott as basis. Or, Lord help me, Aaron Gordon & Ross. Both trades we lose, but with salary flexibility, it could be worth it. Or something along those lines, but there's nothing really exciting out there. If you do it, you're betting HARD on Romeo or MEM pick really stepping up to fill the swing void. I still think we only roll with 3 wings and 1 true big from here on out. So, we need to replace Hayward in any scenario we move him. Replacement just doesn't have to be as good as he is, necessarily, if we make gains in other areas.

Ultimately, I just don't see the right trade lining up to make it worth it.

[SMTBSI]

Celtics have 6 keepers in Walker, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Hayward and Theis. Everyone else is available in the right deal.

In a perfect world, we'd find an upgrade to Wanamaker (combo guard), the Semi/Grant platoon, and Kanter.

Walker / Smart
Brown / ?????
Hayward
Tatum / ?????
Theis / ?????

Solid 9-deep gets us through the regular season much more smoothly than this year, then can run 9 or 8 in the playoffs depending on the talent gradient in the last few positions.

Seems unlikely that we'll actually be able to address all three of those spots though, unless we get lucky with internal improvement such as Rob/Grant taking a serious leap asap.

I'd set the upgrade priority as C > PF > combo guard.

This assumes no major shakeups such as Hayward outgoing, which is entirely possible.

[cloverleaf]

The current team is weak on depth. I would prefer not to jettison any player more useful than Wanamaker or Ojeleye.

The guys I wouldn't overly mind losing are Wanamaker, Ojeleye, Poirier, Green and Edwards. It doesn't make sense to exactly cut all those guys, promote FallNWaters, and use three draft picks; indeed, the later picks may be no better as prospects than Edwards or Green.

They've got Semi for one more year for pennies. He's the only one I'm really interested in keeping from that list, though if Rob isn't healthy they might hang on to Vinnie.

I'm thinking of Semi as trade ballast. But he's yet another guy who shouldn't be cut just to make room for a late draft pick.

But the problems with trades start:
-- Who will we get with the Memphis pick who's better than just using the pick?
-- Who will we get with the other picks at all?

I want Danny to consolidate the picks as much as possible to reach up for one of the good PGs in this draft. The hope is that he will become akemba's successor.

[Fencer reregistered]

They've got Semi for one more year for pennies. He's the only one I'm really interested in keeping from that list, though if Rob isn't healthy they might hang on to Vinnie.

I'm thinking of Semi as trade ballast. But he's yet another guy who shouldn't be cut just to make room for a late draft pick.

But the problems with trades start:
-- Who will we get with the Memphis pick who's better than just using the pick?
-- Who will we get with the other picks at all?

I want Danny to consolidate the picks as much as possible to reach up for one of the good PGs in this draft. The hope is that he will become akemba's successor.

That could help somewhat with roster crunch. So Waters, Fall and a rookie PG in, with Wanamaker, Green and Poirier out?

[zoyathedestroya]

Will these two make the regular roster next season?

[djFan71]

Not advocating this, but Gordon could just walk. Wants a clean start, more usage, whatever. We'd still be over the cap, but have the full non-taxpayer MLE. Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of replacement wings out there for that price. If he bolts and Kanter opts in (I'm assuming he will), you got:

Kemba / Smart / Brown / Tatum / Theis
Romeo / Grant / TL / Kanter
Edwards / Sexy Pants
MEM, BOS, MIL, 2nd
MLE

Possibles: Wanamaker, Waters, Fall.
Super unlikely: Green

Already too many spots, and super thin/young bench. I'd try to keep Wanamaker at the min or slightly above. Draft a wing with MEM pick. MLE seems like there are PFs available, not much in the way of true wings. So, probably grab one of them. Try to deal Sexy/Edwards/Kanter/later picks for whatever you can.

[cloverleaf]

I'm thinking of Semi as trade ballast. But he's yet another guy who shouldn't be cut just to make room for a late draft pick.

But the problems with trades start:
-- Who will we get with the Memphis pick who's better than just using the pick?
-- Who will we get with the other picks at all?

I want Danny to consolidate the picks as much as possible to reach up for one of the good PGs in this draft. The hope is that he will become akemba's successor.

That could help somewhat with roster crunch. So Waters, Fall and a rookie PG in, with Wanamaker, Green and Poirier out?

Works for me!

Continuity really helps a team and this is a good bunch of mostly young guys.

[zoyathedestroya]

Not advocating this, but Gordon could just walk. Wants a clean start, more usage, whatever. We'd still be over the cap, but have the full non-taxpayer MLE. Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of replacement wings out there for that price. If he bolts and Kanter opts in (I'm assuming he will), you got:

Kemba / Smart / Brown / Tatum / Theis
Romeo / Grant / TL / Kanter
Edwards / Sexy Pants
MEM, BOS, MIL, 2nd
MLE

Possibles: Wanamaker, Waters, Fall.
Super unlikely: Green

Already too many spots, and super thin/young bench. I'd try to keep Wanamaker at the min or slightly above. Draft a wing with MEM pick. MLE seems like there are PFs available, not much in the way of true wings. So, probably grab one of them. Try to deal Sexy/Edwards/Kanter/later picks for whatever you can.

I'd still like to see how we do (specifically Tatum) in the playoffs, but what Jayson has been doing the past couple of weeks has made this possibility more palatable. Celtics are already under-utilizing Hayward* and yet are still getting good results. Not at a point where I can declare "we don't need Hayward"** like others have for months now, but if the direction is Tatum getting the most usage and everyone else as supporting cast, then we can't pay Hayward $30M+/yr for the same role he's playing now.

*I wish they'd run Tatum-Hayward high PnRs with Tatum handling and Gordon screening the way Dubs used to run PnR between Curry and Green. Then have Theis or Timelord at the dunker spot. Tatum gets trapped, he releases to Hayward who makes the read on the short roll -- kick out to shooters, drive, or lob to big. Or just in general, involve him in the actions more instead of just asking him to stand in the corner.

**In 295 possessions, Celtics are outscoring opponents by 23.3 points per 100 possessions when Tatum & Gordo are on the floor even without Kemba & Brown. 100th percentile net rating, 100th percentile defensive rating, 91st percentile offensive rating. (+13.1 net rating for Tatum/Kemba; +4.1 for Tatum/Brown).

[grindtime22]

*I wish they'd run Tatum-Hayward high PnRs with Tatum handling and Gordon screening the way Dubs used to run PnR between Curry and Green. Then have Theis or Timelord at the dunker spot. Tatum gets trapped, he releases to Hayward who makes the read on the short roll -- kick out to shooters, drive, or lob to big. Or just in general, involve him in the actions more instead of just asking him to stand in the corner.

I liked that the way we attacked Utah at the end of the game with Brown as the screener. He had it going though, so it kind of made sense. On most nights, using Hayward as the screener makes more sense though. I would rather have him as the 4 on 3 decision maker with Brown in the corner. Brown has been so good (45.6%) with such a quick release from the corner that it makes sense to have him there.

We will probably see it though. This Tatum trap thing is a new development.

[Triple7]

My own preference is to have Theis Start as a PF.

Looking at 5 man line ups for this season, I can't find a single one where Theis has played with another big. Theis is a C on this team. Playing him at PF negates the advantages we get from our versatile wings being able to defend 2/3/4 while being perimeter scoring threats on the other end.

EDIT: We have seen the way Al Horford has been unable to play effectively with Embiid this season, and Theis is a rough approximation of Al's game. Just don't see us using Theis as anything other than a C - starter or (in a perfect world) backup.

Well the thing with Theis again, is his ability to play 2 positions.
So you sub out the Starting Center, slot in Smart, and move everyone over. Depending upon matchup.

Or vice versa. Start with Smart. Again, depending upon matchup.
Though with Tatum's current play, this may be a moot subject.

Kemba - Brown - Tatum - Theis - R.Williams

Kemba - Smart - Brown - Tatum - Theis

I don’t think Theis with R.Will in the starting lineup would be ideal. That’s two role players that can’t really create offense on their own. If we trade hayward for an upgrade big then that would be better. if we get a 5, then we retain theis in the lineup, if we get a 4, then R.Will could start. I’m just not that confident with R.Will health wise moving forward. I’d cut edwards and retain waters instead.

[snowman]

I firmly believe that Hayward will be on the team with some form of contract next season. So I think the starting 5 remains the same next season.

I also believe that Wannamaker will be back with the team next season as 2nd pg. Wannamaker, Smart, Langford, G. Will and R. Will as the 2nd team is pretty deep, as long as Langford continues his improvement and R. Will health holds up.

I also believe that Danny has seen the problems with stashing a draft pick overseas for a year. It doesn't work, and wastes an asset. Hard to believe that Danny would do that again. So I think Danny will make his trade at draft time. Edwards, Semi, Green will be offered with picks to move up in the draft, move to next years draft or pick up a player.

I think Kanter opts out for more money, and Danny lets him. I think Poirier will be back next season. Danny signed him for 2 years for a reason. 1st year to learn the speed of the NBA, and if he isn't contributing by trade deadline next year he will be moved. Waters and Fall with be with the team on a reg. contract, not a 2 way. Our 2nd round pick will get one of the 2 ways.

That's leave Edwards, Green, Semi and 3 FRP's, or whom ever they are traded for, to fit into 2 roster slots between the draft, FA, and preseason.

[djFan71]

Not advocating this, but Gordon could just walk. Wants a clean start, more usage, whatever. We'd still be over the cap, but have the full non-taxpayer MLE. Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of replacement wings out there for that price. If he bolts and Kanter opts in (I'm assuming he will), you got:

Kemba / Smart / Brown / Tatum / Theis
Romeo / Grant / TL / Kanter
Edwards / Sexy Pants
MEM, BOS, MIL, 2nd
MLE

Possibles: Wanamaker, Waters, Fall.
Super unlikely: Green

Already too many spots, and super thin/young bench. I'd try to keep Wanamaker at the min or slightly above. Draft a wing with MEM pick. MLE seems like there are PFs available, not much in the way of true wings. So, probably grab one of them. Try to deal Sexy/Edwards/Kanter/later picks for whatever you can.

I'd still like to see how we do (specifically Tatum) in the playoffs, but what Jayson has been doing the past couple of weeks has made this possibility more palatable. Celtics are already under-utilizing Hayward* and yet are still getting good results. Not at a point where I can declare "we don't need Hayward"** like others have for months now, but if the direction is Tatum getting the most usage and everyone else as supporting cast, then we can't pay Hayward $30M+/yr for the same role he's playing now.

*I wish they'd run Tatum-Hayward high PnRs with Tatum handling and Gordon screening the way Dubs used to run PnR between Curry and Green. Then have Theis or Timelord at the dunker spot. Tatum gets trapped, he releases to Hayward who makes the read on the short roll -- kick out to shooters, drive, or lob to big. Or just in general, involve him in the actions more instead of just asking him to stand in the corner.

**In 295 possessions, Celtics are outscoring opponents by 23.3 points per 100 possessions when Tatum & Gordo are on the floor even without Kemba & Brown. 100th percentile net rating, 100th percentile defensive rating, 91st percentile offensive rating. (+13.1 net rating for Tatum/Kemba; +4.1 for Tatum/Brown).

Yep, that's the rub. You can't continue to pay him to be underutilized, esp since you're extending Tatum at the max and starting to pay that 2021-22. Not that Gordon's not good enough, or productive enough. There's just not room/usage for 4 guys to earn near maxes. I don't see an opt out / resign scenario that works great for both sides. $85-90M/4yr is probably the closest. But, that means he's basically extending for $51-56M/3 years, which he could probably get more than in 2021. And, he's forever cast as 3rd or 4th option. Any higher than that doesn't make much sense for us. If he opts-in without an extension, he knows he's trade bait.

I'm just gonna enjoy having him play the right way for the rest of the season, win a title and see what he decides. But, I think the opt-out and walk scenario is definitely on the table.

[vct33]

1. Definitely want on the team: Walker, Smart, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Theis, R Williams, G Williams, Langford

2. Would be nice if it works: Kanter, Wanamaker

3. I don’t think there is room for Edwards and Waters. I’d prefer Waters.

4. I’m ok with Tacko on a 2-way again but I’d take him on the roster if there’s room.

5. Goodbye Ojeleye, Porier, Green

6. Please don’t draft three 1st rounders. Combine the picks to move up or package with players like Edwards or Porier for young veterans.

[Parliament10]

Not advocating this, but Gordon could just walk. Wants a clean start, more usage, whatever. We'd still be over the cap, but have the full non-taxpayer MLE. Unfortunately, there aren't a ton of replacement wings out there for that price. If he bolts and Kanter opts in (I'm assuming he will), you got:

Kemba / Smart / Brown / Tatum / Theis
Romeo / Grant / TL / Kanter
Edwards / Sexy Pants
MEM, BOS, MIL, 2nd
MLE

Possibles: Wanamaker, Waters, Fall.
Super unlikely: Green

Already too many spots, and super thin/young bench. I'd try to keep Wanamaker at the min or slightly above. Draft a wing with MEM pick. MLE seems like there are PFs available, not much in the way of true wings. So, probably grab one of them. Try to deal Sexy/Edwards/Kanter/later picks for whatever you can.

I'd still like to see how we do (specifically Tatum) in the playoffs, but what Jayson has been doing the past couple of weeks has made this possibility more palatable. Celtics are already under-utilizing Hayward* and yet are still getting good results. Not at a point where I can declare "we don't need Hayward"** like others have for months now, but if the direction is Tatum getting the most usage and everyone else as supporting cast, then we can't pay Hayward $30M+/yr for the same role he's playing now.

*I wish they'd run Tatum-Hayward high PnRs with Tatum handling and Gordon screening the way Dubs used to run PnR between Curry and Green. Then have Theis or Timelord at the dunker spot. Tatum gets trapped, he releases to Hayward who makes the read on the short roll -- kick out to shooters, drive, or lob to big. Or just in general, involve him in the actions more instead of just asking him to stand in the corner.

**In 295 possessions, Celtics are outscoring opponents by 23.3 points per 100 possessions when Tatum & Gordo are on the floor even without Kemba & Brown. 100th percentile net rating, 100th percentile defensive rating, 91st percentile offensive rating. (+13.1 net rating for Tatum/Kemba; +4.1 for Tatum/Brown).

Yep, that's the rub. You can't continue to pay him to be underutilized, esp since you're extending Tatum at the max and starting to pay that 2021-22. Not that Gordon's not good enough, or productive enough. There's just not room/usage for 4 guys to earn near maxes. I don't see an opt out / resign scenario that works great for both sides. $85-90M/4yr is probably the closest. But, that means he's basically extending for $51-56M/3 years, which he could probably get more than in 2021. And, he's forever cast as 3rd or 4th option. Any higher than that doesn't make much sense for us. If he opts-in without an extension, he knows he's trade bait.

I'm just gonna enjoy having him play the right way for the rest of the season, win a title and see what he decides. But, I think the opt-out and walk scenario is definitely on the table.

Yeah. I just don't see paying Hayward's kind of money, for a Redundant position.
Brown and Tatum have it covered.

Kemba takes up the PG slot.
There's only so many Max Contracts to go around.

[100proof]

I'd still like to see how we do (specifically Tatum) in the playoffs, but what Jayson has been doing the past couple of weeks has made this possibility more palatable. Celtics are already under-utilizing Hayward* and yet are still getting good results. Not at a point where I can declare "we don't need Hayward"** like others have for months now, but if the direction is Tatum getting the most usage and everyone else as supporting cast, then we can't pay Hayward $30M+/yr for the same role he's playing now.

*I wish they'd run Tatum-Hayward high PnRs with Tatum handling and Gordon screening the way Dubs used to run PnR between Curry and Green. Then have Theis or Timelord at the dunker spot. Tatum gets trapped, he releases to Hayward who makes the read on the short roll -- kick out to shooters, drive, or lob to big. Or just in general, involve him in the actions more instead of just asking him to stand in the corner.

**In 295 possessions, Celtics are outscoring opponents by 23.3 points per 100 possessions when Tatum & Gordo are on the floor even without Kemba & Brown. 100th percentile net rating, 100th percentile defensive rating, 91st percentile offensive rating. (+13.1 net rating for Tatum/Kemba; +4.1 for Tatum/Brown).

Yep, that's the rub. You can't continue to pay him to be underutilized, esp since you're extending Tatum at the max and starting to pay that 2021-22. Not that Gordon's not good enough, or productive enough. There's just not room/usage for 4 guys to earn near maxes. I don't see an opt out / resign scenario that works great for both sides. $85-90M/4yr is probably the closest. But, that means he's basically extending for $51-56M/3 years, which he could probably get more than in 2021. And, he's forever cast as 3rd or 4th option. Any higher than that doesn't make much sense for us. If he opts-in without an extension, he knows he's trade bait.

I'm just gonna enjoy having him play the right way for the rest of the season, win a title and see what he decides. But, I think the opt-out and walk scenario is definitely on the table.

Yeah. I just don't see paying Hayward's kind of money, for a Redundant position.
Brown and Tatum have it covered.

Kemba takes up the PG slot.
There's only so many Max Contracts to go around.

One of the reasons he should have been shopped this year.

Hopefully if he opts in he gets shopped in this offseason. I hate to see an asset go for nothing, even middling or low assets like Kanter, Brad, Semi, Green....all of which will most likely be gone this offseason, for nothing.

[threrf23]

If Hayward opts out, we have a max slot open if we trade Jaylen for someone still on a rookie deal.

(if we hadn't extended Jaylen, we would have had the ability to trade Marcus, sign a max player, and keep Jaylen's rights in this situation - as Jaylen's cap hold would have been less than his contract)

I just wanted to point this out. Maybe a pipe dream, but AD/someone/Tatum/Smart/Kemba is a solid lineup.

[Parliament10]

If Hayward opts out, we have a max slot open if we trade Jaylen for someone still on a rookie deal.

(if we hadn't extended Jaylen, we would have had the ability to trade Marcus, sign a max player, and keep Jaylen's rights in this situation - as Jaylen's cap hold would have been less than his contract)

I just wanted to point this out. Maybe a pipe dream, but AD/someone/Tatum/Smart/Kemba is a solid lineup.

Understanding your desire to be better.
However, with all due respect, it would not make sense to trade any of "Team Shamrock*" at this time.

Not saying that it's not possible, or will never be possible.
Just that it's extremely unlikely; at this time.


* Team Shamrock
Kemba - Smart - Brown - Tatum

[djFan71]

Would anyone take the Ws D-Lo trade return straight up for an opted in Gordon? Wiggins and MIN 21 (top 3 protected, 22 unprotected). Seems like GSW & Gordon could like that. Steph, Klay, Gordon, Dray, Looney could be nasty. Gordon could even agree to an extension.

It saves us $5M, not sure we get to full MLE level still, but could conceivably maneuver to get it. We get another Jaylen-level potential guy who fits the age profile. Contract is obviously a concern - 2 years of 4 near maxes once Tatum's kicks in. But, we'd corner the market on 6'11" wingspan and greater wings. The D with Smart, Brown, Wiggins, Tatum, Timelord could be insane if Brown/Wiggins/Timelord know where to be. Langford waiting in the wings (ha!). Then draft 3 or 4 more (or 5 if our tank to keep our own second works out).

And, we'd get to have a MIN pick watch thread next year, possibly 2 years.

Caveat: I haven't watched Wiggins at all. So, I am not pushing for this by any means. Just curious what people think.

[Higgs Boston]

Would anyone take the Ws D-Lo trade return straight up for an opted in Gordon? Wiggins and MIN 21 (top 3 protected, 22 unprotected). Seems like GSW & Gordon could like that. Steph, Klay, Gordon, Dray, Looney could be nasty. Gordon could even agree to an extension.

It saves us $5M, not sure we get to full MLE level still, but could conceivably maneuver to get it. We get another Jaylen-level potential guy who fits the age profile. Contract is obviously a concern - 2 years of 4 near maxes once Tatum's kicks in. But, we'd corner the market on 6'11" wingspan and greater wings. The D with Smart, Brown, Wiggins, Tatum, Timelord could be insane if Brown/Wiggins/Timelord know where to be. Langford waiting in the wings (ha!). Then draft 3 or 4 more (or 5 if our tank to keep our own second works out).

And, we'd get to have a MIN pick watch thread next year, possibly 2 years.

Caveat: I haven't watched Wiggins at all. So, I am not pushing for this by any means. Just curious what people think.

Warriors aren't going to trade wiggins and the pick for Hayward, maybe without the pick but no way they trade the pick.

[Bleeding Green]

Wiggins is so **** bad. No. Not unless the pick were completely unprotected and I had inside info that KAT was going to miss the entire season.

We have five and a half seasons of data for Wiggins. He's terrible, has a really nice game once every couple weeks. Shoots 33 % from three, takes too many awful shots, not a useful passer, handle is mediocre. Just a forever what-if kind of player. I have zero doubt that Romeo Langford will contribute more next year than Andrew Wiggins.