Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVIII

[payitforward]

Now, on Bryant...

5) I think you'd agree it's highly unlikely Bryant ever becomes elite (I.E. Embiid, Jokic, Gobert), correct? So whats the next step down? Current Vucevic, Kanter, Ayton, Steven Adams, Myles Turner. etc.... That guy as a UFA at 25 is gonna be a contract we immediately regret.

Here's the thing... Bryant was better than Ayton last year. He was better than Turner last year. He's better than both those guys this year. Look at the numbers....

Let me do this differently. Here are 2 Centers, A & B. Per 40 minutes, A scores 12.4 more points than B. Of course, A takes more shots/FTAs -- in fact, b/c of the difference in the 2 guys' overall TS%'s, A scores those extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%.

Simple question: do 12.4 points gotten at a .495% TS% help a team win a game? Make it easier to win? Would we be happy if B went out and got us an extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%? Yes or no?

Here are 2 other Centers, C & D. In 40 minutes, C gets 4 more defensive boards than D -- but, in that same 40 minutes, he turns the ball over 2.6 more times than D.

Again, a simple question: which one is helping his team more, which one less, via the combination of those numbers? If, suddenly, D upped his defensive boards by 4 but he also upped his turnovers by 2.6 -- would we say his overall numbers had improved? Or would we say they'd gotten worse?

Please note: I'm not asking whether A is a better player than B or vice versa. Nor am I asking whether C is a better player than D or vice versa. I'm asking a much more focused question, & it's about numbers not people. For that reason, if you need names to answer, then you're not addressing my question. Of course, if you don't want to answer... hey, why should you have to?

But, if a person needs names to know the meaning of numbers... to me at least that's a problem.

Again, I love Bryant... but if you can get two first (with one in the top 20) for a non elite Center in this NBA, Im not sure how you say no.

More generally, if I control the meaning of terms, I can make any judgment I want.

If I'm the one who controls what the word "beautiful" means, then when I say who is beautiful & who is not, no one can call me wrong. Ditto for "intelligent." In that case, as a matter of fact, I can make those terms mean anything I want.

I'm sorry this was so long. Please note -- I'm not saying that I wouldn't trade Thomas Bryant for the #17 & #26 pick in this draft. Or that I would. I don't have a settled take on this year's draft yet. I am pretty sure, however, that this year there will be two guys come out of the post-lottery R1 who are better as a bundle than about 90% of the players in the league taken singly. That's true pretty much every year.

& I'd trade Bryant for Brandon Clarke in a minute!

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Now, on Bryant...

5) I think you'd agree it's highly unlikely Bryant ever becomes elite (I.E. Embiid, Jokic, Gobert), correct? So whats the next step down? Current Vucevic, Kanter, Ayton, Steven Adams, Myles Turner. etc.... That guy as a UFA at 25 is gonna be a contract we immediately regret.

Here's the thing... Bryant was better than Ayton last year. He was better than Turner last year. He's better than both those guys this year. Look at the numbers....

Let me do this differently. Here are 2 Centers, A & B. Per 40 minutes, A scores 12.4 more points than B. Of course, A takes more shots/FTAs -- in fact, b/c of the difference in the 2 guys' overall TS%'s, A scores those extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%.

Simple question: do 12.4 points gotten at a .495% TS% help a team win a game? Make it easier to win? Would we be happy if B went out and got us an extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%? Yes or no?

Here are 2 other Centers, C & D. In 40 minutes, C gets 4 more defensive boards than D -- but, in that same 40 minutes, he turns the ball over 2.6 more times than D.

Again, a simple question: which one is helping his team more, which one less, via the combination of those numbers? If, suddenly, D upped his defensive boards by 4 but he also upped his turnovers by 2.6 -- would we say his overall numbers had improved? Or would we say they'd gotten worse?

Please note: I'm not asking whether A is a better player than B or vice versa. Nor am I asking whether C is a better player than D or vice versa. I'm asking a much more focused question, & it's about numbers not people. For that reason, if you need names to answer, then you're not addressing my question. Of course, if you don't want to answer... hey, why should you have to?

But, if a person needs names to know the meaning of numbers... to me at least that's a problem.

Again, I love Bryant... but if you can get two first (with one in the top 20) for a non elite Center in this NBA, Im not sure how you say no.

More generally, if I control the meaning of terms, I can make any judgment I want.

If I'm the one who controls what the word "beautiful" means, then when I say who is beautiful & who is not, no one can call me wrong. Ditto for "intelligent." In that case, as a matter of fact, I can make those terms mean anything I want.

I'm sorry this was so long. Please note -- I'm not saying that I wouldn't trade Thomas Bryant for the #17 & #26 pick in this draft. Or that I would. I don't have a settled take on this year's draft yet. I am pretty sure, however, that this year there will be two guys come out of the post-lottery R1 who are better as a bundle than about 90% of the players in the league taken singly. That's true pretty much every year.

& I'd trade Bryant for Brandon Clarke in a minute!

I’d trade pretty much anyone on our roster for Clarke

[gambitx777]

I don't think the notion of trading Bryant comes from him being expendable or what ever. But I think it comes from.him being the most valuable asset we have. Imo

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

[nate33]

& I'd trade Bryant for Brandon Clarke in a minute!

That would be nice.

Unfortunately, even if Memphis thought the value was right, the trade doesn't make much sense for them. They already have Valanciunas who is a better version of Bryant. (Mediocre D, even better offense, only 27 years old.)

[Dat2U]

Now, on Bryant...

5) I think you'd agree it's highly unlikely Bryant ever becomes elite (I.E. Embiid, Jokic, Gobert), correct? So whats the next step down? Current Vucevic, Kanter, Ayton, Steven Adams, Myles Turner. etc.... That guy as a UFA at 25 is gonna be a contract we immediately regret.

Here's the thing... Bryant was better than Ayton last year. He was better than Turner last year. He's better than both those guys this year. Look at the numbers....

Let me do this differently. Here are 2 Centers, A & B. Per 40 minutes, A scores 12.4 more points than B. Of course, A takes more shots/FTAs -- in fact, b/c of the difference in the 2 guys' overall TS%'s, A scores those extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%.

Simple question: do 12.4 points gotten at a .495% TS% help a team win a game? Make it easier to win? Would we be happy if B went out and got us an extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%? Yes or no?

Here are 2 other Centers, C & D. In 40 minutes, C gets 4 more defensive boards than D -- but, in that same 40 minutes, he turns the ball over 2.6 more times than D.

Again, a simple question: which one is helping his team more, which one less, via the combination of those numbers? If, suddenly, D upped his defensive boards by 4 but he also upped his turnovers by 2.6 -- would we say his overall numbers had improved? Or would we say they'd gotten worse?

Please note: I'm not asking whether A is a better player than B or vice versa. Nor am I asking whether C is a better player than D or vice versa. I'm asking a much more focused question, & it's about numbers not people. For that reason, if you need names to answer, then you're not addressing my question. Of course, if you don't want to answer... hey, why should you have to?

But, if a person needs names to know the meaning of numbers... to me at least that's a problem.

Again, I love Bryant... but if you can get two first (with one in the top 20) for a non elite Center in this NBA, Im not sure how you say no.

More generally, if I control the meaning of terms, I can make any judgment I want.

If I'm the one who controls what the word "beautiful" means, then when I say who is beautiful & who is not, no one can call me wrong. Ditto for "intelligent." In that case, as a matter of fact, I can make those terms mean anything I want.

I'm sorry this was so long. Please note -- I'm not saying that I wouldn't trade Thomas Bryant for the #17 & #26 pick in this draft. Or that I would. I don't have a settled take on this year's draft yet. I am pretty sure, however, that this year there will be two guys come out of the post-lottery R1 who are better as a bundle than about 90% of the players in the league taken singly. That's true pretty much every year.

& I'd trade Bryant for Brandon Clarke in a minute!

Order of importance for bigs:

1. Defensive rotations & Challenging shots

Big dropoff-

3. Everything else including rebounding, efficiency, skill, etc.

Bryant unfortunately has been one of the very worst bigs at defending & challenging shots. That negates much of the positive production.

You cannot win with a defensive sieve at C. It just doesn't happen. That's because C's are often the last line of defense.

You either need Bryant to improve significantly on that end or you find someone that can.

[payitforward]

& I'd trade Bryant for Brandon Clarke in a minute!

That would be nice.

Unfortunately, even if Memphis thought the value was right, the trade doesn't make much sense for them. They already have Valanciunas who is a better version of Bryant. (Mediocre D, even better offense, only 27 years old.)

I'm sure they wouldn't -- really, I meant only to be poking fun at myself: trading one guy I'm known to like a lot for another guy I'm known to like a lot....

(What a different place we'd be in now, if we'd traded down last year & gotten Clarke & Thybulle!)

[payitforward]

Now, on Bryant...

5) I think you'd agree it's highly unlikely Bryant ever becomes elite (I.E. Embiid, Jokic, Gobert), correct? So whats the next step down? Current Vucevic, Kanter, Ayton, Steven Adams, Myles Turner. etc.... That guy as a UFA at 25 is gonna be a contract we immediately regret.

Here's the thing... Bryant was better than Ayton last year. He was better than Turner last year. He's better than both those guys this year. Look at the numbers....

Let me do this differently. Here are 2 Centers, A & B. Per 40 minutes, A scores 12.4 more points than B. Of course, A takes more shots/FTAs -- in fact, b/c of the difference in the 2 guys' overall TS%'s, A scores those extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%.

Simple question: do 12.4 points gotten at a .495% TS% help a team win a game? Make it easier to win? Would we be happy if B went out and got us an extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%? Yes or no?

Here are 2 other Centers, C & D. In 40 minutes, C gets 4 more defensive boards than D -- but, in that same 40 minutes, he turns the ball over 2.6 more times than D.

Again, a simple question: which one is helping his team more, which one less, via the combination of those numbers? If, suddenly, D upped his defensive boards by 4 but he also upped his turnovers by 2.6 -- would we say his overall numbers had improved? Or would we say they'd gotten worse?

Please note: I'm not asking whether A is a better player than B or vice versa. Nor am I asking whether C is a better player than D or vice versa. I'm asking a much more focused question, & it's about numbers not people. For that reason, if you need names to answer, then you're not addressing my question. Of course, if you don't want to answer... hey, why should you have to?

But, if a person needs names to know the meaning of numbers... to me at least that's a problem.
...

Order of importance for bigs:

1. Defensive rotations & Challenging shots

Big dropoff-

3. Everything else including rebounding, efficiency, skill, etc.

Bryant unfortunately has been one of the very worst bigs at defending & challenging shots. That negates much of the positive production.

You cannot win with a defensive sieve at C. It just doesn't happen. That's because C's are often the last line of defense.

You either need Bryant to improve significantly on that end or you find someone that can.

Valid points. &, above all, the 22-year-old Thomas Bryant needs to improve on defense. But, even with the "big dropoff" in importance, when you talk about any player's performance, you can't assess unless you include all aspects of what he does.

On his career, Bryant fouls less than an average C, blocks more shots than average, turns it over less than an average Center, gets more offensive boards than average, more defensive boards as well, & scores more points than an average Center -- plus he scores those points at a TS% of 65.4% -- an average Center is at 57.8%.

If you bring in a good defender who, otoh, is average at the aspects of the game producing the numbers above, then his defense has to prevent at least 5-6 points by the opposing team per 40 minutes, to be worth playing him instead of Thomas.

[Meliorus]

Now, on Bryant...

5) I think you'd agree it's highly unlikely Bryant ever becomes elite (I.E. Embiid, Jokic, Gobert), correct? So whats the next step down? Current Vucevic, Kanter, Ayton, Steven Adams, Myles Turner. etc.... That guy as a UFA at 25 is gonna be a contract we immediately regret.

Here's the thing... Bryant was better than Ayton last year. He was better than Turner last year. He's better than both those guys this year. Look at the numbers....

Let me do this differently. Here are 2 Centers, A & B. Per 40 minutes, A scores 12.4 more points than B. Of course, A takes more shots/FTAs -- in fact, b/c of the difference in the 2 guys' overall TS%'s, A scores those extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%.

Simple question: do 12.4 points gotten at a .495% TS% help a team win a game? Make it easier to win? Would we be happy if B went out and got us an extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%? Yes or no?

Here are 2 other Centers, C & D. In 40 minutes, C gets 4 more defensive boards than D -- but, in that same 40 minutes, he turns the ball over 2.6 more times than D.

Again, a simple question: which one is helping his team more, which one less, via the combination of those numbers? If, suddenly, D upped his defensive boards by 4 but he also upped his turnovers by 2.6 -- would we say his overall numbers had improved? Or would we say they'd gotten worse?

Please note: I'm not asking whether A is a better player than B or vice versa. Nor am I asking whether C is a better player than D or vice versa. I'm asking a much more focused question, & it's about numbers not people. For that reason, if you need names to answer, then you're not addressing my question. Of course, if you don't want to answer... hey, why should you have to?

But, if a person needs names to know the meaning of numbers... to me at least that's a problem.

Again, I love Bryant... but if you can get two first (with one in the top 20) for a non elite Center in this NBA, Im not sure how you say no.

More generally, if I control the meaning of terms, I can make any judgment I want.

If I'm the one who controls what the word "beautiful" means, then when I say who is beautiful & who is not, no one can call me wrong. Ditto for "intelligent." In that case, as a matter of fact, I can make those terms mean anything I want.

I'm sorry this was so long. Please note -- I'm not saying that I wouldn't trade Thomas Bryant for the #17 & #26 pick in this draft. Or that I would. I don't have a settled take on this year's draft yet. I am pretty sure, however, that this year there will be two guys come out of the post-lottery R1 who are better as a bundle than about 90% of the players in the league taken singly. That's true pretty much every year.

& I'd trade Bryant for Brandon Clarke in a minute!

Why do we only bring up Bryant's offensive stats?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

This year's draft I don't see anybody with defensive perimeter stats like Thybuille....but I have not been studious.

Paul Reed. Okongwu. They stand out defensively. Jalen Smith is lighter in weight. He's going to struggle when big bodies muscle him. However, I see him as a stretch big. Jeff Green but taller. Sticks to me can play 3, 4, and 5.

& I'd trade Bryant for Brandon Clarke in a minute!

That would be nice.

Unfortunately, even if Memphis thought the value was right, the trade doesn't make much sense for them. They already have Valanciunas who is a better version of Bryant. (Mediocre D, even better offense, only 27 years old.)

I'm sure they wouldn't -- really, I meant only to be poking fun at myself: trading one guy I'm known to like a lot for another guy I'm known to like a lot....

(What a different place we'd be in now, if we'd traded down last year & gotten Clarke & Thybulle!)

Sent from my SM-A205U using RealGM mobile app

[SUPERBALLMAN]

I’m starting to think Beals trade value this offseason could be at all-time high...

[gambitx777]

All those you're over rating beals value poster can see the stats

I’m starting to think Beals trade value this offseason could be at all-time high...

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

[pcbothwel]

I’m starting to think Beals trade value this offseason could be at all-time high...

Possible, but we arent trading him.
TS & co have it made it very clear. They want to see Wall & Beal along with our young guys play together. Unless a colossal crash and burn, you wont even see a deadline deal.
Summer of 2021 is the EARLIEST we move him if at all, and I dont disagree. Lets take another run of enjoyable basketball while also seeing what Bryant, Rui, Brown, Bonga, etc. can progress into. Beal isnt losing any value.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Right now you can mention Beal in the same sentence with guys like Harden.

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[Ruzious]

Now, on Bryant...

5) I think you'd agree it's highly unlikely Bryant ever becomes elite (I.E. Embiid, Jokic, Gobert), correct? So whats the next step down? Current Vucevic, Kanter, Ayton, Steven Adams, Myles Turner. etc.... That guy as a UFA at 25 is gonna be a contract we immediately regret.

Here's the thing... Bryant was better than Ayton last year. He was better than Turner last year. He's better than both those guys this year. Look at the numbers....

Let me do this differently. Here are 2 Centers, A & B. Per 40 minutes, A scores 12.4 more points than B. Of course, A takes more shots/FTAs -- in fact, b/c of the difference in the 2 guys' overall TS%'s, A scores those extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%.

Simple question: do 12.4 points gotten at a .495% TS% help a team win a game? Make it easier to win? Would we be happy if B went out and got us an extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%? Yes or no?

Here are 2 other Centers, C & D. In 40 minutes, C gets 4 more defensive boards than D -- but, in that same 40 minutes, he turns the ball over 2.6 more times than D.

Again, a simple question: which one is helping his team more, which one less, via the combination of those numbers? If, suddenly, D upped his defensive boards by 4 but he also upped his turnovers by 2.6 -- would we say his overall numbers had improved? Or would we say they'd gotten worse?

Please note: I'm not asking whether A is a better player than B or vice versa. Nor am I asking whether C is a better player than D or vice versa. I'm asking a much more focused question, & it's about numbers not people. For that reason, if you need names to answer, then you're not addressing my question. Of course, if you don't want to answer... hey, why should you have to?

But, if a person needs names to know the meaning of numbers... to me at least that's a problem.

Again, I love Bryant... but if you can get two first (with one in the top 20) for a non elite Center in this NBA, Im not sure how you say no.

More generally, if I control the meaning of terms, I can make any judgment I want.

If I'm the one who controls what the word "beautiful" means, then when I say who is beautiful & who is not, no one can call me wrong. Ditto for "intelligent." In that case, as a matter of fact, I can make those terms mean anything I want.

I'm sorry this was so long. Please note -- I'm not saying that I wouldn't trade Thomas Bryant for the #17 & #26 pick in this draft. Or that I would. I don't have a settled take on this year's draft yet. I am pretty sure, however, that this year there will be two guys come out of the post-lottery R1 who are better as a bundle than about 90% of the players in the league taken singly. That's true pretty much every year.

& I'd trade Bryant for Brandon Clarke in a minute!

Order of importance for bigs:

1. Defensive rotations & Challenging shots

Big dropoff-

3. Everything else including rebounding, efficiency, skill, etc.

Bryant unfortunately has been one of the very worst bigs at defending & challenging shots. That negates much of the positive production.

You cannot win with a defensive sieve at C. It just doesn't happen. That's because C's are often the last line of defense.

You either need Bryant to improve significantly on that end or you find someone that can.

Or you get a great defensive PF to team with him. Everybody... considered Brook Lopez to be a TERRIBLE defensive center until he went to Milwaukee - where he starts on the NBA's best defensive team for the second straight season. If the Wiz get a great defender at the 4, they can funnel offensive players into Bryant - and he can use his length to be an effective shot-blocker.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

RIP Hamilton also was considered a bad defender. The Pistons that beat Kobe and Shaq in the NBA finals also had the best defense IIRC. It helped having Rasheed, Big Ben, and Tayshaun Prince.

I think Bryant is a keeper; but, I also love Oturo and/or Jalen Smith who are both better defenders. I'd draft one of them and let Ian move on or stay at the veteran minimum. Smith at SF/PF makes a ton of sense to me. Bryant would have a helper.

Now, on Bryant...

Here's the thing... Bryant was better than Ayton last year. He was better than Turner last year. He's better than both those guys this year. Look at the numbers....

Let me do this differently. Here are 2 Centers, A & B. Per 40 minutes, A scores 12.4 more points than B. Of course, A takes more shots/FTAs -- in fact, b/c of the difference in the 2 guys' overall TS%'s, A scores those extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%.

Simple question: do 12.4 points gotten at a .495% TS% help a team win a game? Make it easier to win? Would we be happy if B went out and got us an extra 12.4 points at a .495 TS%? Yes or no?

Here are 2 other Centers, C & D. In 40 minutes, C gets 4 more defensive boards than D -- but, in that same 40 minutes, he turns the ball over 2.6 more times than D.

Again, a simple question: which one is helping his team more, which one less, via the combination of those numbers? If, suddenly, D upped his defensive boards by 4 but he also upped his turnovers by 2.6 -- would we say his overall numbers had improved? Or would we say they'd gotten worse?

Please note: I'm not asking whether A is a better player than B or vice versa. Nor am I asking whether C is a better player than D or vice versa. I'm asking a much more focused question, & it's about numbers not people. For that reason, if you need names to answer, then you're not addressing my question. Of course, if you don't want to answer... hey, why should you have to?

But, if a person needs names to know the meaning of numbers... to me at least that's a problem.


More generally, if I control the meaning of terms, I can make any judgment I want.

If I'm the one who controls what the word "beautiful" means, then when I say who is beautiful & who is not, no one can call me wrong. Ditto for "intelligent." In that case, as a matter of fact, I can make those terms mean anything I want.

I'm sorry this was so long. Please note -- I'm not saying that I wouldn't trade Thomas Bryant for the #17 & #26 pick in this draft. Or that I would. I don't have a settled take on this year's draft yet. I am pretty sure, however, that this year there will be two guys come out of the post-lottery R1 who are better as a bundle than about 90% of the players in the league taken singly. That's true pretty much every year.

& I'd trade Bryant for Brandon Clarke in a minute!

Order of importance for bigs:

1. Defensive rotations & Challenging shots

Big dropoff-

3. Everything else including rebounding, efficiency, skill, etc.

Bryant unfortunately has been one of the very worst bigs at defending & challenging shots. That negates much of the positive production.

You cannot win with a defensive sieve at C. It just doesn't happen. That's because C's are often the last line of defense.

You either need Bryant to improve significantly on that end or you find someone that can.

Or you get a great defensive PF to team with him. Everybody... considered Brook Lopez to be a TERRIBLE defensive center until he went to Milwaukee - where he starts on the NBA's best defensive team for the second straight season. If the Wiz get a great defender at the 4, they can funnel offensive players into Bryant - and he can use his length to be an effective shot-blocker.

Sent from my SM-A205U using RealGM mobile app

[dckingsfan]

I’m starting to think Beals trade value this offseason could be at all-time high...

What would Beal, Brown and one of Bryant/Wagner fetch?

[dckingsfan]

Did we dodge a bullet not trading for the crippled Ben Simmons

[gambitx777]

Any one not named AD, KD , Kawi . That's an obserd trade package.

I’m starting to think Beals trade value this offseason could be at all-time high...

What would Beal, Brown and one of Bryant/Wagner fetch?

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

[payitforward]

I’m starting to think Beals trade value this offseason could be at all-time high...

What would Beal, Brown and one of Bryant/Wagner fetch?

If we wanted to trade Bradley Beal, why would we want to trade Brown, Bryant and/or Wagner?

[pcbothwel]

I’m starting to think Beals trade value this offseason could be at all-time high...

What would Beal, Brown and one of Bryant/Wagner fetch?

If we wanted to trade Bradley Beal, why would we want to trade Brown, Bryant and/or Wagner?

Agreed. But to play devils advocate, Bryant does have only 2 years remaining until he’s a UFA. So it’s a two year win now package.

Plus, a premium package for Beal could wipe a team out of assets. Bryant might be enough to entice the team to give up the ransom

Buuuuttt yeah, not going to happen.