Suns record starting Ayton vs starting Baynes

[syntax]

Can anyone work it out and tell me what it is? Thanks!

[MrMiyagi]

According to Basketball-reference's game logs

Aron Baynes Starting: 12-14

Deandre Ayton Starting: 9-16

[lilfishi22]

I think it's a little misleading. A lot of those Baynes wins came when teams were still underestimating us and we were playing a now-proven unsustainable level of defense.

Teams have somewhat figured us out now and we're inconsistent ourselves which hurts Ayton's starting W/L record.

[SlovenianDragon]

idk but when Ayton is 30 he will be a hella lot better than baynes. We pressure our young guys a lot because we are sick of losing.

Also <3 Baynes

[bwgood77]

I think it's a little misleading. A lot of those Baynes wins came when teams were still underestimating us and we were playing a now-proven unsustainable level of defense.

Teams have somewhat figured us out now and we're inconsistent ourselves which hurts Ayton's starting W/L record.

I don't think it's misleading. We were clearly playing on a different level to start the season and the last couple of games. What Rubio said about Baynes impacting the defense greatly with the leadership and directing everyone on the floor is huge. The reason his impact isn't felt that much from the bench is because he is playing with far lesser talent. You saw it with him just like with Bridges. Their impact is felt more when playing with better players.

While Ayton is better at many things, like finishing, short range shots, rebounding, 1 on 1 defensive versatility (being able to switch and keep up with smaller players), Baynes is probably still more of an overall impact player due to his impact on other players, toughness, as well as his stretching the floor to open it up for everyone by pulling a big out of the paint, and setting screens to give Booker a lot easier shots coming off screens.

[Stark]

I generally agree with how Baynes brings toughness and leadership and while they are still important i don't think that is the main difference between Baynes and Ayton. It's actually a couple of things but mainly as almost most of you realized, it is able to shoot three point shots. Everyone who watches basketball these days knows the importance of bigs who can stretch the floor,spacing and how it makes the offence easier for everyone etc. However the most important difference is with Baynes on the court our offence is much more simple because without Ayton our goal is simple. Generating three points! Look at the best offences in the league Dallas,Houston,Milwaukee. Yes i know they have some exceptional players in their roster (Giannis,Doncic,Harden) but still their offence is not really complicated. (Having offensive players that people has to double doesn't hurt of course) They try to generate and shoot as much as three points as possible.Just ask an average NBA fan these days and they can explain you the importance of the three point shots. This year Suns shoots 31 3P in a game (21st in the league) at a %35 clip (19th in the league) and that's just not cool.

I kinda blame Monty about this.I gotta say, i like Monty. First thing we had to change about the team was the culture and i definitely believe that he really made an outstanding job about that. Like it or not, this team fought hard this year most of the time. Showed great energy and shared the ball well which something that you have to build if you want to have a competent team in the NBA. However i believe he is not a very modern basketball mind for the current league. For example he lets the team shoot too many mid range shots (mainly Booker),most of the time our offence doesn't try to create three point opportunities etc. However do i want to replace him with someone else? Hell no! We need stability and firing him for someone new would be super risky move.

So when we have Ayton on the court. What Monty really want is getting Ayton the ball. That was almost all of us wanted for this season. More shots for Ayton. However getting him the ball is hard and when you able to do it, Ayton is still very young and not comfortable with the ball most of the time and this situation creates a lot of turnovers and also slows down our offence. Almost half the 24 seconds goes to Ayton positioning himself and rest of the team trying to get him to ball and if you can't do that we have to force a shot without not much time. Let's say you manage to get him the ball without a turnover and Ayton shots the ball (yay!) It is still 2 points and even though he is actually pretty good in the paint he is not exceptionally well but we need him to be like that if we want to win. Right now for us better offence is unfortunately just space the floor for everyone and share the ball and shoot a lot of three point shots. It is much more simple and way more effective.

Look at the two games that we lost against Warriors and Pistons. Suns shot 23 3P against Pistons and 29 3P against Warriors. Ayton actually wasn't bad in those games. He was looking unstoppable during the match but somehow we lost two of the worst teams in the league. How did that happen? Was it only due to Ayton? I don't think so. Defence wasn't really good, we didn't fight enough, Book forced some shots but still our offence was ugly. I remember we got back in the game in the Detroit match because we were trying to find shooters to close the gap and i think Cam shot 3 three points or something and that was something that the team hadn't done until that moment. Now look at the last three games with Baynes starting. Suns shot 41 3P in these 3 games on average. 10 more than our season average and also we shot pretty well with almost %42 percent which is probably not sustainable but still offence was way more smooth and easier for everyone.

This post is not another post that screams "WE SHOULD HAVE DRAFTED DONCIC OR YOUNG" although yes they are way more valuable in today's game but you can still make it work and there is still hope my fellow Suns fans. Ayton is gonna get more comfortable in the paint, he will grow as a player and all the attention he brings will actually help us generate three point shots. Well also If he became an absolute monster that we dream him to be in the paint (Shaq-esque offence) we wouldn't even need to get three points but right now even though he is still good, it is not enough. So how and when the f. that's going to happen Stark? Well maybe that's what Monty is trying to do by giving the ball, makes his development a lot faster. It hurts our team right now but in the long run this experience will help Ayton a lot. Dude is still a 21 year old and i'm totally happy about his development. Worst case scenario he will never learn those things and he will be just a good player but just imagine a 27-28 year old Ayton that can shoot three points from pick&pop plays, defend the paint and the perimeter while wreaking havoc on offence with his dominance in the paint... Thay would be pretty great too.

[Wilber85]

Also ask

How many baynes wins had kaminsky, and depth.

Has Ayton even had a game with Baynes , And Kaminsky playing ? Maybe 1st game of season

Its not who wins more with Ayton or Baynes . Its all about depth. If we had Baynes and Kaminsky healthy all year , and Ayton not suspended we are fighting for 8th

[RiRuHoops]

OK let's look at some actual numbers:

On offense Suns score 112.1 pts per 100 poss. when Ayton plays (110.9 when sits) and eFG% is 52.7 when ON (52.9 when OFF).
So not exactly an offensive boost from him, but let's be honest Ayton had a lot of poor games in terms of scoring the ball, some turnover issues.

Baynes #s: 113.2 when ON (110.5 when OFF) and eFG% of 54 ON ( 52.4 when OFF). So here we see a bigger impact in numbers. And while he had some poor games, I suspect when his outside shot is going in our offensive rating is going thru the roof.

Now onto the defense:

Ayton : 110.8 when ON (112.8 OFF) and opponets eFG% 52.8 ON ( 54.8 OFF). So Ayton is a clear plus for our defense.
Baynes: 113.7 ON (111.5) and 54.8 ON (53.9 OFF). So it doesn't really look good for Baynes here. We just don't really defend with him on the floor. Maybe the time when he played injured/limited really hurt those numbers, cause when Baynes was healthy he passed the eye test.

in the end, Suns outscore the opponent per 100 poss with Ayton : 112.1 to 110.8. While get outscored 113.2 to 113.7 with Baynes.

Also, Ayton is very young, he's already making impact on defense, let's wait till his offense expands.

[GoodBehavior]

Baynes have been lights out at the three pointer in those wins. It's just not sustainable.

He's a 33%, below average three point shooter. That's not going to change. When he's average or below average shooting the ball, it's been a mess. Defensively, he was fantastic in the early part of the year, but has gotten considerably worse (injury being a factor).

Defensively, they gave up 117pt and 131pt in the last two starts ...

My biggest takeaway is seeing how the team perform with a spacing center. If Ayton can shoot the three ball like Baynes can (which I think there's a high probability), this team will be very dangerous. People criticize Ayton for practicing those long balls. But when it comes, it's game over for the league.

[MathiasPW]

OK let's look at some actual numbers:

On offense Suns score 112.1 pts per 100 poss. when Ayton plays (100.9 when sits) and eFG% is 52.7 when ON (52.9 when OFF).
So not exactly an offensive boost from him, but let's be honest Ayton had a lot of poor games in terms of scoring the ball, some turnover issues.

Just a clarification: it's actually a huge offensive boost by Ayton, like 11+ extra points per 100 possessions when he's on the team.

Baynes #s: 113.2 when ON (110.5 when OFF) and eFG% of 54 ON ( 52.4 when OFF). So here we see a bigger impact in numbers. And while he had some poor games, I suspect when his outside shot is going in our offensive rating is going thru the roof.

Now onto the defense:

Ayton : 110.8 when ON (112.8 OFF) and opponets eFG% 52.8 ON ( 54.8 OFF). So Ayton is a clear plus for our defense.
Baynes: 113.7 ON (111.5) and 54.8 ON (53.9 OFF). So it doesn't really look good for Baynes here. We just don't really defend with him on the floor. Maybe the time when he played injured/limited really hurt those numbers, cause when Baynes was healthy he passed the eye test.

in the end, Suns outscore the opponent per 100 poss with Ayton : 112.1 to 110.8. While get outscored 113.2 to 113.7 with Baynes.

Also, Ayton is very young, he's already making impact on defense, let's wait till his offense expands.

There is a bias in these numbers because Baynes had to play a good chunk of his minutes in the last months with the (very poor) bench.

Would have to re-run these stats filtering Baynes as a starter (which I'm not sure you can do) to make a fair comparison.

[RiRuHoops]

Just a clarification: it's actually a huge offensive boost by Ayton, like 11+ extra points per 100 possessions when he's on the team.

Where's that ?

EDIT,

oops, I'm sorry I made a typo. It's corrected now. it's 110.9 ( not 100.9)

[WeekapaugGroove]

Ayton should start shooting 3s.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

[bwgood77]

Baynes have been lights out at the three pointer in those wins. It's just not sustainable.

He's a 33%, below average three point shooter. That's not going to change. When he's average or below average shooting the ball, it's been a mess. Defensively, he was fantastic in the early part of the year, but has gotten considerably worse (injury being a factor).

Defensively, they gave up 117pt and 131pt in the last two starts ...

My biggest takeaway is seeing how the team perform with a spacing center. If Ayton can shoot the three ball like Baynes can (which I think there's a high probability), this team will be very dangerous. People criticize Ayton for practicing those long balls. But when it comes, it's game over for the league.

Believe me, I think Ayton will be better than Baynes, and probably, in many ways, already better individually. But doing the little things, and with experience, Baynes brings a lot to the team.

Baynes is shooting 36% from 3, Booker 36.2%, Bridges 35.4% and Oubre 35.2%.

By stating Baynes impact, I am not knocking Ayton in the least, who is developing at a rate that is phenomenal. I think Baynes has played a significant impact there too.

I just think he's a great culture guy that it would be great to keep around. Do I want him starting over Ayton? No, but I do think Ayton can pick up a lot by watching how he plays and especially his defensive communication on that side of the floor, along with the screening. I don't think Ayton learning those things, particularly the communication and understanding of where everyone should be on defense will come quickly, so it would be nice to have Baynes around to help continue with that development and be a very nice backup who makes a great impact when Ayton is out. Or, when we have better depth, and better players to play with among our reserves, he will make a bigger impact with the 2nd unit (along with whatever starters are staggering).

[GoodBehavior]

Baynes have been lights out at the three pointer in those wins. It's just not sustainable.

He's a 33%, below average three point shooter. That's not going to change. When he's average or below average shooting the ball, it's been a mess. Defensively, he was fantastic in the early part of the year, but has gotten considerably worse (injury being a factor).

Defensively, they gave up 117pt and 131pt in the last two starts ...

My biggest takeaway is seeing how the team perform with a spacing center. If Ayton can shoot the three ball like Baynes can (which I think there's a high probability), this team will be very dangerous. People criticize Ayton for practicing those long balls. But when it comes, it's game over for the league.

Believe me, I think Ayton will be better than Baynes, and probably, in many ways, already better individually. But doing the little things, and with experience, Baynes brings a lot to the team.

Baynes is shooting 36% from 3, Booker 36.2%, Bridges 35.4% and Oubre 35.2%.

By stating Baynes impact, I am not knocking Ayton in the least, who is developing at a rate that is phenomenal. I think Baynes has played a significant impact there too.

I just think he's a great culture guy that it would be great to keep around. Do I want him starting over Ayton? No, but I do think Ayton can pick up a lot by watching how he plays and especially his defensive communication on that side of the floor, along with the screening. I don't think Ayton learning those things, particularly the communication and understanding of where everyone should be on defense will come quickly, so it would be nice to have Baynes around to help continue with that development and be a very nice backup who makes a great impact when Ayton is out. Or, when we have better depth, and better players to play with among our reserves, he will make a bigger impact with the 2nd unit (along with whatever starters are staggering).

He was pretty bad prior to Ayton coming back from the 25 game suspension. These two games, while extremely enjoyable, hasn't sway me yet.

But I agree with everything you said. I do hope we keep Baynes for those reasons you outlined. Besides being a great mentor, I think the Suns should keep him simply for depth. You need him, against the bruising centers in the league. Saric, Frank, and him w/ Ayton should be a good set of front line guys.

[Fo-Real]

Baynes have been lights out at the three pointer in those wins. It's just not sustainable.

He's a 33%, below average three point shooter. That's not going to change. When he's average or below average shooting the ball, it's been a mess. Defensively, he was fantastic in the early part of the year, but has gotten considerably worse (injury being a factor).

Defensively, they gave up 117pt and 131pt in the last two starts ...

My biggest takeaway is seeing how the team perform with a spacing center. If Ayton can shoot the three ball like Baynes can (which I think there's a high probability), this team will be very dangerous. People criticize Ayton for practicing those long balls. But when it comes, it's game over for the league.

Believe me, I think Ayton will be better than Baynes, and probably, in many ways, already better individually. But doing the little things, and with experience, Baynes brings a lot to the team.

Baynes is shooting 36% from 3, Booker 36.2%, Bridges 35.4% and Oubre 35.2%.

By stating Baynes impact, I am not knocking Ayton in the least, who is developing at a rate that is phenomenal. I think Baynes has played a significant impact there too.

I just think he's a great culture guy that it would be great to keep around. Do I want him starting over Ayton? No, but I do think Ayton can pick up a lot by watching how he plays and especially his defensive communication on that side of the floor, along with the screening. I don't think Ayton learning those things, particularly the communication and understanding of where everyone should be on defense will come quickly, so it would be nice to have Baynes around to help continue with that development and be a very nice backup who makes a great impact when Ayton is out. Or, when we have better depth, and better players to play with among our reserves, he will make a bigger impact with the 2nd unit (along with whatever starters are staggering).

He was pretty bad prior to Ayton coming back from the 25 game suspension. These two games, while extremely enjoyable, hasn't sway me yet.

But I agree with everything you said. I do hope we keep Baynes for those reasons you outlined. Besides being a great mentor, I think the Suns should keep him simply for depth. You need him, against the bruising centers in the league. Saric, Frank, and him w/ Ayton should be a good set of front line guys.

He was injured but kept playing through it because we were thin on bigs!!

[RiRuHoops]

I honestly don't see Baynes staying short of offering him an big overpaid contract. I think the guy joins a contending team, going back to Boston seems likely.

[GoodBehavior]

I honestly don't see Baynes staying short of offering him an big overpaid contract. I think the guy joins a contending team, going back to Boston seems likely.

It's a real possibility, and a contender, looking for a 10-15minute backup center, is going to overpay him (probably not a lot). I dont mind if we overpay slightly to keep his service.

From his perspective, Phoenix is not a bad place to be, better than Boston by a mile, for a low-key Aussie guy with a family looking for some sun. He also seems to get a long well with guys like Ayton, Bridges, and Rubio. I rather stay with these guys then deal with the cesspool media in LA.

[nevetsov]

Don't know how often Baynes heads back to Australia, but it's heaps easier to get there and back from the west coast than from say Boston. It's a full day adventure getting from the west coast to east coast, and it's not fun.

[bwgood77]

I don't see him going back to Boston. Players don't typically go back to teams that traded them, except for Dragic I guess. If he can start for a contender and get the full MLE, he might. I could see both LA teams liking the idea of him starting, knowing he can stretch the floor and set screens for the other guys.

[El Hespiritu]

I'll tell you something... (just speculating, 'course).

Tormund GiantBaynes rather prefer to be the starting Center at Phoenix than a bencher in Boston (or any other contender).

It's not (entirely) about money.
It's about role.

The problem is likely Implicator Stevens would offer now him that role... looks as a neat improvement over Kanter.


As long as we have him, we should play him the most we can.
2nd unit is a waste.