Rookie Discussion [19/20] [part I]

[Marcus]

Zion’s defense is such a liability. It’s one thing when you’re a guard and you have two more lines of defense behind you. You can build around a bad defensive guard. You can’t build around a bad defensive big. He’s your last line of defense, your saving grace. Zion would get played off the floor in the playoffs. I wouldn’t take him top 5 for that reason alone.

Who are the five?

[Jadoogar]

Read on Twitter

That can't be a good sign.

[clyde21]

Read on Twitter

That can't be a good sign.

judging RJ by eFG% on a team not designed to get him any of the looks he actually likes is just stupid, that tweet and those stats mean nothing.

[Jadoogar]

Read on Twitter

That can't be a good sign.

judging RJ by eFG% on a team not designed to get him any of the looks he actually likes is just stupid, that tweet and those stats mean nothing.

They mean something. Knox still looks terrible. Frank has shown flashes but is largely irrelevant on offense.
RJ is playing in a bad environment for sure but was he a good shooter in college?

[Crizzle]

I wouldn’t take him top 5 for that reason alone.

Does it piss you off that the Grizz would trade Ja for Zion in a heart beat (as would every single GM in the NBA)? Not top 5? Get the **** out of here. The kid is playing at like 70%. He was top 3 in defensive player of the year voting for a reason. He is missing his motor that made him so good on defense in college, but that will come back in time when he gs back to top shape

Plus the stats show that his offense more than makes up for his defense. He tilts the floor far more than any rookie

yeah this is fukcing wild. Just the media coverage alone is worth being in the top 5 not even taking into consideration how he actually produces

[clyde21]

Read on Twitter

That can't be a good sign.

judging RJ by eFG% on a team not designed to get him any of the looks he actually likes is just stupid, that tweet and those stats mean nothing.

They mean something. Knox still looks terrible. Frank has shown flashes but is largely irrelevant on offense.
RJ is playing in a bad environment for sure but was he a good shooter in college?

they mean nothing if you are trying to establish a pattern

and Knox was always a terrible prospect, Ntilikina was never ever a factor offensively either

as for RJ, like I said many times, he's a down hill player, his drive game sets up his entire offense and playmaking, he doesn't have that in New York because the lanes are clogged, so he's stuck at this point taking Js that he's not ready to take yet, hence the bad eFG%, that's why applying context to numbers and percentages is important

[Ambrose]

Read on Twitter

That can't be a good sign.

judging RJ by eFG% on a team not designed to get him any of the looks he actually likes is just stupid, that tweet and those stats mean nothing.

You don't need to judge by eFG% to know R.J. sucks.

[clyde21]

Read on Twitter

That can't be a good sign.

judging RJ by eFG% on a team not designed to get him any of the looks he actually likes is just stupid, that tweet and those stats mean nothing.

You don't need to judge by eFG% to know R.J. sucks.

good point?

[Jadoogar]

judging RJ by eFG% on a team not designed to get him any of the looks he actually likes is just stupid, that tweet and those stats mean nothing.

They mean something. Knox still looks terrible. Frank has shown flashes but is largely irrelevant on offense.
RJ is playing in a bad environment for sure but was he a good shooter in college?

they mean nothing if you are trying to establish a pattern

and Knox was always a terrible prospect, Ntilikina was never ever a factor offensively either

as for RJ, like I said many times, he's a down hill player, his drive game sets up his entire offense and playmaking, he doesn't have that in New York because the lanes are clogged, so he's stuck at this point taking Js that he's not ready to take yet, hence the bad eFG%, that's why applying context to numbers and percentages is important

So isn't that a pattern? the knicks keep picking limited offensive players

[clyde21]

They mean something. Knox still looks terrible. Frank has shown flashes but is largely irrelevant on offense.
RJ is playing in a bad environment for sure but was he a good shooter in college?

they mean nothing if you are trying to establish a pattern

and Knox was always a terrible prospect, Ntilikina was never ever a factor offensively either

as for RJ, like I said many times, he's a down hill player, his drive game sets up his entire offense and playmaking, he doesn't have that in New York because the lanes are clogged, so he's stuck at this point taking Js that he's not ready to take yet, hence the bad eFG%, that's why applying context to numbers and percentages is important

So isn't that a pattern? the knicks keep picking limited offensive players

we already know RJ's jumper was a work in progress. the only pattern here is that the Knicks continue putting their players in the worst possible position.

if you area surprised that RJ is not shooting well with the Knicks you never watched him at Duke.

[Buzzard]

they mean nothing if you are trying to establish a pattern

and Knox was always a terrible prospect, Ntilikina was never ever a factor offensively either

as for RJ, like I said many times, he's a down hill player, his drive game sets up his entire offense and playmaking, he doesn't have that in New York because the lanes are clogged, so he's stuck at this point taking Js that he's not ready to take yet, hence the bad eFG%, that's why applying context to numbers and percentages is important

So isn't that a pattern? the knicks keep picking limited offensive players

we already know RJ's jumper was a work in progress. the only pattern here is that the Knicks continue putting their players in the worst possible position.

if you area surprised that RJ is not shooting well with the Knicks you never watched him at Duke.

Pre Summer league I pointed out Barrett's College shooting including his free throw shooting. Some people called me crazy for liking Reddish as the better shooter. But you know, free throw shooting is just as much a indicator of good shooting as is three point shooting.

Barrett at Duke:
FG% .454, FT% .665, 3PT% .308

Reddish at Duke:
FG% .356, FT% .772, 3PT% .333

Both players have a real chance at being good to great pros. I love Barrett's rebounding ability but I still like Reddish as the better 3D player. If Reddish stayed at Duke for another year, I think he would have a chance to go in the top five in this draft. I am glad he was there at ten for the Hawks last year.

[Duke4life831]

Zion’s defense is such a liability. It’s one thing when you’re a guard and you have two more lines of defense behind you. You can build around a bad defensive guard. You can’t build around a bad defensive big. He’s your last line of defense, your saving grace. Zion would get played off the floor in the playoffs. I wouldn’t take him top 5 for that reason alone.

I wont give him the excuse for being out of shape because that's on him and came into the season out of shape. I also think looking at his On/Off is extremely misleading because those off numbers are impacted by the horrible play from the first 2.5 months of the season. I also agree and think Zion has been really bad on the defensive end. But lets see how much he has effected the team's defense.

Since his return he has the 2nd lowest defensive rating on the team. When he is on the court the Pels have a 106 defensive rating which would be one of the best defenses in the league right now.

Dec 18th - Jan 20th when the Pels really turned the season around prior to Zion, they had the 12th ranked defense and a defensive rating of 109.5. Since Zion has joined the Pels rank 9th in defense with a defensive rating of 109.1.

So yes while his individual defense has been bad (I don't think anyone would deny this), statistically speaking though his defense has had very little effect negatively on the team.

So you wouldnt take a rookie top 5 in his own draft even though he is having arguably the best scoring season ever by a rookie (when factoring points per 36 and efficiency) and while he has been bad defensively, his defense hasnt really hurt his team overall.

[clyde21]

^ again, and I repeated this a million times before the draft, all of RJ's efficiency numbers went up WITHOUT Zion in the lineup, because Zion was causing defenses to collapse inside which killed RJ's drive game (that's what his game is predicated on), RJ needs to go downhill that's what opens him his game...New York has no shooters, a bunch of lane clogging PFs and a no legit creators at PG...legit the worst possible scenario for RJ to be in as a rook

this is what eFG% doesn't tell you, and this is why that tweet is just nonsense noise

[Buzzard]

^ again, and I repeated this a million times before the draft, all of RJ's efficiency numbers went up WITHOUT Zion in the lineup, because Zion was causing defenses to collapse inside which killed RJ's drive game (that's what his game is predicated on), RJ needs to go downhill that's what opens him his game...New York has no shooters, a bunch of lane clogging PFs and a no legit creators at PG...legit the worst possible scenario for RJ to be in as a rook

this is what eFG% doesn't tell you, and this is why that tweet is just nonsense noise

You are telling me what I suspected. If Barrett is not getting to the rack, his game can be limited. eFG% may not be a good measure; but TS% usually does tell us if a wing can shoot threes and free throws at a decent clip.

[clyde21]

^ again, and I repeated this a million times before the draft, all of RJ's efficiency numbers went up WITHOUT Zion in the lineup, because Zion was causing defenses to collapse inside which killed RJ's drive game (that's what his game is predicated on), RJ needs to go downhill that's what opens him his game...New York has no shooters, a bunch of lane clogging PFs and a no legit creators at PG...legit the worst possible scenario for RJ to be in as a rook

this is what eFG% doesn't tell you, and this is why that tweet is just nonsense noise

You are telling me what I suspected. If Barrett is not getting to the rack, his game can be limited. eFG% may not be a good measure; but TS% usually does tell us if a wing can shoot threes and free throws at a decent clip.

of course, everything his based on his ability to go down hill, getting to the basket, drive-kick game, floater, spacing for mid-range, that's what gets him into rhythm...when the lanes are clogged he's forced to settle for too many Js, and that's not what he's good at...kinda like how Russ needs the lanes open to function

[Fat]

they mean nothing if you are trying to establish a pattern

and Knox was always a terrible prospect, Ntilikina was never ever a factor offensively either

as for RJ, like I said many times, he's a down hill player, his drive game sets up his entire offense and playmaking, he doesn't have that in New York because the lanes are clogged, so he's stuck at this point taking Js that he's not ready to take yet, hence the bad eFG%, that's why applying context to numbers and percentages is important

So isn't that a pattern? the knicks keep picking limited offensive players

we already know RJ's jumper was a work in progress. the only pattern here is that the Knicks continue putting their players in the worst possible position.

if you area surprised that RJ is not shooting well with the Knicks you never watched him at Duke.

No need to even explain let folks stare at stats vs watching games.

Elfrid Payton 20% from 3
Randle 27% from 3
Gibson irrelevant
Harkless 33% from 3

Those are the stats nobody wants to pay attention to and that’s who RJ has started next to all season (minus harkless who just got traded here) Your fooling yourselves if you don’t think that supporting cast and spacing wouldn’t cause any rookie to struggle. Let alone a player who already was never known for being a knock down shooter.

You literally have one person in this starting lineup that can shoot the ball slightly decent. You just drafted a player who excels on ball and can cause havoc when he drives but isn’t a great shooter. Rj was doomed from the start with this roster if your worrying about his efficiency.

[Fat]

Also Barrets points, rebounds, assists and Shooting percentages Including free throws have all risen since allstar break so wtf? Lol

Not about how you start it’s about how you finish.

That’s why I never took the cam bashing crowd serious and said don’t worry about him way earlier in this thread. If you paid attention to duke heck even If you even looked at a cam highlight that shot was always PURE and smooth. Efficiency and Confidence can always be improved. And y’all have gone silent or jumpin on the bandwagon now lol.

[Fat]

Also morant rookie of the year! Zion has played well in his return. Well enough to overshadow morants whole year? I don’t see it

[clyde21]

Also morant rookie of the year! Zion has played well in his return. Well enough to overshadow morants whole year? I don’t see it

playing well? you mean other than having the single best rookie season per minute since Shaq?

[Fat]

Also morant rookie of the year! Zion has played well in his return. Well enough to overshadow morants whole year? I don’t see it

playing well? you mean other than having the single best rookie season per minute since Shaq?

If Zion finishes the season playing all games that’s somewhere at a total of 30 something games or so. I don’t feel like doing math but to me that’s to small of a sample size to warrant it over morant who’s been playing like a ROY all season. The pelicans would have to make the playoffs and Zion would have to have the biggest impact behind it happening for me personally ignore the lack of games missed. It just doesn’t seem right