Political Roundtable Part XXVIII

[Ruzious]

I am not afraid of democratic socialism.

Should have voted for Bernie then

I think Bernie didn't win because he wasn't able to build a coalition (he wasn't able to secure the black or older vote) and always went to the left of the most left candidate to the point that his policies didn't stick with a majority.

The first part is true, but I don't agree with the reasons why. I think the media and Democrats are largely opposed to him and it has a massive reverberating effect on older voters who watch MSNBC and CNN and have lived their entire lives looking at mainstays of the Democratic establishment as totems of authority.

And here is the kicker - he was doing well when he was one of many candidates - but he always traded in the 20 to 30 percent range. So, although he was a strong candidate, he was never "the" candidate.

What I am saying is that Bernie was never really "winning". But I don't think he lost either... he moved the progressive movement forward.

I agree with all of that.

I didn't vote for any candidate - I was always going to work for whichever candidate rose from the ashes. First, I worked to get as many folks registered as I could. Now, I am going to try to get them to the polls (which is going to be interesting given the voter suppression tactics the Rs are laying down in Harris County).

We get to agree to disagree on why Bernie couldn't build a coalition. First, it was never in his wheelhouse to do so. Second, he ran on "revolution" to get rid of the same candidates those folks identified with.

Thank you for all you did and continue to do to promote voter registration. That's much appreciated.

[FAH1223]

Market gains since Trump was inaugurated are about to be wiped out.

[dckingsfan]

Should have voted for Bernie then



The first part is true, but I don't agree with the reasons why. I think the media and Democrats are largely opposed to him and it has a massive reverberating effect on older voters who watch MSNBC and CNN and have lived their entire lives looking at mainstays of the Democratic establishment as totems of authority.



I agree with all of that.

I didn't vote for any candidate - I was always going to work for whichever candidate rose from the ashes. First, I worked to get as many folks registered as I could. Now, I am going to try to get them to the polls (which is going to be interesting given the voter suppression tactics the Rs are laying down in Harris County).

We get to agree to disagree on why Bernie couldn't build a coalition. First, it was never in his wheelhouse to do so. Second, he ran on "revolution" to get rid of the same candidates those folks identified with.

Thank you for all you did and continue to do to promote voter registration. That's much appreciated.

Eh, I am an old guy, what else am I going to do - watch Fox news

[dckingsfan]

What do you guys think this means?

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/12/814717480/sanders-offers-biden-a-path-to-win-over-his-movement

[I_Like_Dirt]

What do you guys think this means?

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/12/814717480/sanders-offers-biden-a-path-to-win-over-his-movement

I think Bernie is a pretty open book in that sense. He's not trying to hide anything. He basically isn't giving up. His outreach suggests to me that he realizes he doesn't have another run in him anymore and has finally decided to try something new when his preferred option is no longer available. I hope he succeeds. I tend to like Elizabeth Warren's chances of success in terms of pushing a progressive agenda within the party better than Sanders.' She had some rather significant successes with Hillary, though the fact that there won't be 100% proof of why anything happened likely means a lot of Sanders supporters will credit him and Sanders won't deny it.

For what it's worth, Biden has already quietly moved left during this campaign and not many have noticed. He's moved left particularly on environmental issues and was probably the candidate representing the third most dramatic change on that end after Bernie and Warren on that front once the dust started to settle. I suspect health care is going to be an extremely tough sell to him, sadly, though perhaps current events may shape his opinion on that subject, even if it's by causing some of his advisors to push more strongly on that subject.

It's been pretty obvious from the start, though, that Bernie has his playbook. He's still going to run his campaign until it's basically past the point of 100% mathematical elimination and even then he might keep going for a bit and will lob some stones at establishments he doesn't like before turning around and half-heartedly supporting Biden.

[Zonkerbl]

Market gains since Trump was inaugurated are about to be wiped out.

20k is the magic number

[DCZards]

If young voters want a robust and influential voice in what happens in electoral politics, they first need to recognize that support for a candidate and his/her positions is not measured by how many people that candidate can get out to a rally. It’s measured by how many people they can get to the polls on election day. All the numbers point to the fact that it was the low turnout of young voters that helped to doom Bernie (along with his failure to build a broader coalition).

AOC is smart to try to create a little space between herself and the Sanders campaign. As a young elected leader with a seemingly bright future, it serves her no useful purpose to take the blame the establishment, blame the media, blame the older voters position that some of Bernie’s hardcore supporters have taken.

Sanders is not winning the support of Dem primary voters because most of them believe--even many of those who support his positions--that Bernie can't beat Trump in November…and that having his name at the top of the Dem ticket would hurt the party’s chances in down ballot races. I agree with that assessment.

[dckingsfan]

What do you guys think this means?

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/12/814717480/sanders-offers-biden-a-path-to-win-over-his-movement

I think Bernie is a pretty open book in that sense. He's not trying to hide anything. He basically isn't giving up. His outreach suggests to me that he realizes he doesn't have another run in him anymore and has finally decided to try something new when his preferred option is no longer available. I hope he succeeds. I tend to like Elizabeth Warren's chances of success in terms of pushing a progressive agenda within the party better than Sanders.' She had some rather significant successes with Hillary, though the fact that there won't be 100% proof of why anything happened likely means a lot of Sanders supporters will credit him and Sanders won't deny it.

For what it's worth, Biden has already quietly moved left during this campaign and not many have noticed. He's moved left particularly on environmental issues and was probably the candidate representing the third most dramatic change on that end after Bernie and Warren on that front once the dust started to settle. I suspect health care is going to be an extremely tough sell to him, sadly, though perhaps current events may shape his opinion on that subject, even if it's by causing some of his advisors to push more strongly on that subject.

It's been pretty obvious from the start, though, that Bernie has his playbook. He's still going to run his campaign until it's basically past the point of 100% mathematical elimination and even then he might keep going for a bit and will lob some stones at establishments he doesn't like before turning around and half-heartedly supporting Biden.

Biden is open for strengthening the ACA and offering opening up "Medicare for All Who Want It". That is probably the fastest way forward. All that he has to say is that he won't veto a M4A if it comes across his desk, since there is no chance it would actually get through the senate.

But this is the key point...

[Zonkerbl]

What do you guys think this means?

https://www.npr.org/2020/03/12/814717480/sanders-offers-biden-a-path-to-win-over-his-movement

I think Bernie is a pretty open book in that sense. He's not trying to hide anything. He basically isn't giving up. His outreach suggests to me that he realizes he doesn't have another run in him anymore and has finally decided to try something new when his preferred option is no longer available. I hope he succeeds. I tend to like Elizabeth Warren's chances of success in terms of pushing a progressive agenda within the party better than Sanders.' She had some rather significant successes with Hillary, though the fact that there won't be 100% proof of why anything happened likely means a lot of Sanders supporters will credit him and Sanders won't deny it.

For what it's worth, Biden has already quietly moved left during this campaign and not many have noticed. He's moved left particularly on environmental issues and was probably the candidate representing the third most dramatic change on that end after Bernie and Warren on that front once the dust started to settle. I suspect health care is going to be an extremely tough sell to him, sadly, though perhaps current events may shape his opinion on that subject, even if it's by causing some of his advisors to push more strongly on that subject.

It's been pretty obvious from the start, though, that Bernie has his playbook. He's still going to run his campaign until it's basically past the point of 100% mathematical elimination and even then he might keep going for a bit and will lob some stones at establishments he doesn't like before turning around and half-heartedly supporting Biden.

Biden is open for strengthening the ACA and offering opening up "Medicare for All Who Want It". That is probably the fastest way forward. All that he has to say is that he won't veto a M4A if it comes across his desk, since there is no chance it would actually get through the senate.

But this is the key point...

Strengthening the ACA is a **** sandwich with avocado. See 16:24 of the following.

Watch on YouTube

[dckingsfan]

I think Bernie is a pretty open book in that sense. He's not trying to hide anything. He basically isn't giving up. His outreach suggests to me that he realizes he doesn't have another run in him anymore and has finally decided to try something new when his preferred option is no longer available. I hope he succeeds. I tend to like Elizabeth Warren's chances of success in terms of pushing a progressive agenda within the party better than Sanders.' She had some rather significant successes with Hillary, though the fact that there won't be 100% proof of why anything happened likely means a lot of Sanders supporters will credit him and Sanders won't deny it.

For what it's worth, Biden has already quietly moved left during this campaign and not many have noticed. He's moved left particularly on environmental issues and was probably the candidate representing the third most dramatic change on that end after Bernie and Warren on that front once the dust started to settle. I suspect health care is going to be an extremely tough sell to him, sadly, though perhaps current events may shape his opinion on that subject, even if it's by causing some of his advisors to push more strongly on that subject.

It's been pretty obvious from the start, though, that Bernie has his playbook. He's still going to run his campaign until it's basically past the point of 100% mathematical elimination and even then he might keep going for a bit and will lob some stones at establishments he doesn't like before turning around and half-heartedly supporting Biden.

Biden is open for strengthening the ACA and offering opening up "Medicare for All Who Want It". That is probably the fastest way forward. All that he has to say is that he won't veto a M4A if it comes across his desk, since there is no chance it would actually get through the senate.

But this is the key point...

Strengthening the ACA is a **** sandwich with avocado. See 16:24 of the following.

Watch on YouTube

Dude is definitely funny... misses the point - but funny.

[Zonkerbl]

I think he's spot on. Our current healthcare system is a capitalist dystopian horrorshow. It is much, much worse than m4a. Adding a public option to that horrorshow is not going to solve *anything*.

[pancakes3]

If young voters want a robust and influential voice in what happens in electoral politics, they first need to recognize that support for a candidate and his/her positions is not measured by how many people that candidate can get out to a rally. It’s measured by how many people they can get to the polls on election day. All the numbers point to the fact that it was the low turnout of young voters that helped to doom Bernie (along with his failure to build a broader coalition).

AOC is smart to try to create a little space between herself and the Sanders campaign. As a young elected leader with a seemingly bright future, it serves her no useful purpose to take the blame the establishment, blame the media, blame the older voters position that some of Bernie’s hardcore supporters have taken.

Sanders is not winning the support of Dem primary voters because most of them believe--even many of those who support his positions--that Bernie can't beat Trump in November…and that having his name at the top of the Dem ticket would hurt the party’s chances in down ballot races. I agree with that assessment.

Nothing about progressive platforms of universal health care, fighting wage inequality, combating climate change, etc. are intrinsically "young ppl" issues. It's not like Bernie is running on the promise of returning the drinking age to 18.

So it's a bit condescending to say "well, if you young kids want a seat at the table, get your sh*t together" and framing it as a failure of young ppl to select a viable candidate. that shifts the blame in a way that's not really fair.

And fwiw, it wasn't a "low" turnout of young voters that doomed Bernie but a disproportionately "high" turnout of old voters. And never mind that 18-34 is 16 years worth of people whose ranks are almost exclusively people in school or working as junior level employees that are disadvantaged when it comes to spacing out 2-ish hours on a Tuesday to go vote.

also pretty fed up w the armchair analysis of electability.

[Ruzious]

Market gains since Trump was inaugurated are about to be wiped out.

20k is the magic number

Dow is down 2,000 points today even after a temporary boost from the Fed this morning and even after a speech from the President last night intended to instill some confidence. I ain't selling, but it's getting ugly.

[DCZards]

Nothing about progressive platforms of universal health care, fighting wage inequality, combating climate change, etc. are intrinsically "young ppl" issues. It's not like Bernie is running on the promise of returning the drinking age to 18.

So it's a bit condescending to say "well, if you young kids want a seat at the table, get your sh*t together" and framing it as a failure of young ppl to select a viable candidate. that shifts the blame in a way that's not really fair.

And fwiw, it wasn't a "low" turnout of young voters that doomed Bernie but a disproportionately "high" turnout of old voters. And never mind that 18-34 is 16 years worth of people whose ranks are almost exclusively people in school or working as junior level employees that are disadvantaged when it comes to spacing out 2-ish hours on a Tuesday to go vote.

also pretty fed up w the armchair analysis of electability.

Sorry if my comments came across as condescending to young people. I didn’t intend it that way.

I’ve spent the last 20 plus years as a labor union activist...and as an advocate for progressive issues like the ones you cite, especially income equality, voting rights, collective bargaining rights and universal healthcare. I’m a longtime fan of Bernie Sanders. He's been a consistent friend and supporter of unions, working people and many of the issues that I care most about.

But I stand by my personal belief/concern that Bernie can’t beat Trump…and beating #45 is the top priority.

[gtn130]

But hey, continue to tell me how all the young people have answers and anyone over 40 doesn't.

When did I say this? The breakdown of young voters going hard for Bernie and old voters going hard for Biden indicates that progressives weren't ditching Bernie. You imagined a bunch of reasons why Bernie is losing and they were all incorrect.

The answer is honestly a collective amalgamation of everything. A lot of what Bernie is doing has been tried a fair few times throughout history and expecting it to suddenly work out better this time around just because people who don't have a clear understanding of history think it will is eye-opening. And no, I don't think older people have inherently more knowledge in that respect, either. But only playing the game one way and then getting mad when you lose the same way every time and blaming others rather than trying to play different ways. It's like a basketball team that only ever plays on the fast break and then just stops entirely when the break is over and then gets mad that their opponents demand they have set offenses or play defense beyond running back. Bernie needs to be a better leader than this if he wants to win but he's been at it so long it's long past clear he isn't changing.

This is gibberish. Bernie would have almost certainly won the nomination if the Democrats didn't consolidate to a single candidate. Biden was on the verge of dropping out, and 538 was projecting Bernie as a pretty sizable favorite a few weeks ago. This revisionist history wherein you pretend you are a far better strategist than the Bernie campaign is again just laughable.

You clearly do not like Bernie and have an axe to grind, and that's fine I guess. I don't see why anyone should pay attention to anything you have to say on this subject.

[dckingsfan]

I think he's spot on. Our current healthcare system is a capitalist dystopian horrorshow. It is much, much worse than m4a. Adding a public option to that horrorshow is not going to solve *anything*.

Kindly agree to disagree. First thing is that it would allow everyone to get meaningful healthcare. It would be in direct competition with those "bad plans" out there.

But truthfully, although I would like to see a single payer system put in place - I don't think that the M4A as outlined by Bernie solves the issue either. But that would be a long back and forth

[dobrojim]

Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. "Vote Blue no Matter Who" is a prime example of this phenomena.

Same with #nevertrump?

As long as DJT is the only other plausible outcome, you’d have to have your
head and most of the rest of you buried in the sand to think that _any_ of the
plausible (to earn the nomination) alternatives is a worse outcome than 4 more years
of this ignorant racist fascist buffoon. Irrational/dysfunctional? What planet
you been living on ?

Or as John McEnroe put it, you cannot be serious.

With all due respect...

[dckingsfan]

Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. "Vote Blue no Matter Who" is a prime example of this phenomena.

Same with #nevertrump?

As long as DJT is the only other plausible outcome, you’d have to have your head and most of the rest of you buried in the sand to think that _any_ of the plausible (to earn the nomination) alternatives is a worse outcome than 4 more years of this ignorant racist fascist buffoon. Irrational/dysfunctional? What planet you been living on ?

Or as John McEnroe put it, you cannot be serious.

With all due respect...

Not sure I am understanding your post... clarification please.

My post was specifically in response to: "irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome" and group think. I think #nevertrump is neither irrational or dysfunctional decision-making. But it could be interpreted as "group think".

[daSwami]

Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. "Vote Blue no Matter Who" is a prime example of this phenomena.

Same with #nevertrump?

As long as DJT is the only other plausible outcome, you’d have to have your
head and most of the rest of you buried in the sand to think that _any_ of the
plausible (to earn the nomination) alternatives is a worse outcome than 4 more years
of this ignorant racist fascist buffoon. Irrational/dysfunctional? What planet
you been living on ?

Or as John McEnroe put it, you cannot be serious.

With all due respect...

Oh, I'll be voting against Trump enthusiastically, but my days as a card-carrying Democrat are over. The party is corrupt and it took pulling my head out of the sand of corporate media (i.e., cable news, NY Times, WaPo, etc.) to see that with clarity. We need a legitimate third party - preferably one that isn't beholden to Wall Street.

[dckingsfan]

We need a legitimate third party - preferably one that isn't beholden to Wall Street.

On this we completely agree. I don't know how to do this in the short-term without handing the keys to the Rs (who have slid from morally bankrupt to whatever you would call this now).

I think having a Progressive Party, a Democratic Party and a Republican Party would server the nation well. I think (in time) it would split roughly 25, 30, 25 with 20% staying Independent (this is my crystal ball, feel free to crack it).

I don't think that the Progressives are fairly represented by the Ds today. I also think there would be a natural shift (as it has been occurring) from center right to more center left.

But the two parties would kick, claw and bite to keep it from happening.