OT: Democratic Primary Thread

[duetta]

The name of the game going forward must be "control the House, control the Senate, and control the Presidency - at all costs".

We lost the House in 2010 because of the mismanagement of the messaging surrounding Health Care, coupled to McConnell's vicious wielding of the filibuster in the Senate. Obama, seeking not to repeat the mistakes of Hillary in '93, allowed the American people to see the sausage being made. It was an extremely ugly process that led to a product that the vast majority of the American people would not see benefit from until 2013. Not smart politically, not smart at all. With the Senate essentially made powerless by McConnell's abuse of the procedural filibuster, despite the fact that Democrats had 59 Senators for the majority of that term, Obama accomplished little after the initial stimulus bill and health care.

Seriously, we have no idea what kind of President Obama might have been because, after November 2010, he was prevented (due to Ted Kennedy's death) from pushing a 'progressive' agenda. All he could do is seek to compromise.

You move legislation by controlling the House, the Senate, and the Presidency; Bernie Sanders simply does not give Democrats a better chance to do this in 2020 than does Joe Biden. Everything else is secondary. All the rhetoric, all the emotion, and the "sound and fury, signifying nothing" counts for nothing unless we control and retain all three. We must take over the Senate, retain the House, eliminate the procedural filibuster (we can retain the talking one for tradition's sake) and then consistently move meaningful legislation that makes people's lives better.

None of this requires a 'revolution'; it merely requires a hard-headed politics that puts keeping Team Blue in control for as long as possible - and eschewing crackpot issues that don't resonate with a majority of Americans.

That facts are that contemporary conservatives are ruthless and better at political messaging that we are. They have Fox, the radio shock jocks, and the larger conservative misinformation machine working overtime, all the time, to mislead their audiences. That puts us, as the alleged 'reality-based' party at a tremendous disadvantage. If we don't up our political messaging game, you then you can forget about progressive legislation either being passed or remaining on the books for long. Bernie Sanders does not help us win Senate seats in purple states - any more than Jeremy Corbyn's candidacy helped the majority who opposed Brexit prevent a separation from Europe.

[Marty McFly]

Bernie Sanders gets applauded at Fox News town halls because he cares about working people. It’s laughable at best to assume his election would cause a right wing counterpart. His rise is a reaction to right wing fascists and the Moderates that enable them. Not the other way around.

[GONYK]

Bernie Sanders gets applauded at Fox News town halls because he cares about working people. It’s laughable at best to assume his election would cause a right wing counterpart. His rise is a reaction to right wing fascists and the Moderates that enable them. Not the other way around.

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

[HarthorneWingo]

Bernie Sanders gets applauded at Fox News town halls because he cares about working people. It’s laughable at best to assume his election would cause a right wing counterpart. His rise is a reaction to right wing fascists and the Moderates that enable them. Not the other way around.

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

It's true to Bernie's supporters did not come out and vote in the way we needed them to. There is a result of a combination of things, i.e. "excuses." One issue is disfranchisement making it difficult to vote in many rural communities. The other aspect of this is that many students live out of state. Still, they voted for him more in '16. The other issue is the constant bombardment of Bernie on mainstream news outlets which call him a Communist, continually point out problems with him and his campaign. "He's not a 'Democrat'!" chants, etc. Then you had Obama pulling strings behind the curtain, circling the wagons in order to undermine Bernie's campaign. If Barack wanted to endorse someone, then fine. But this was dirty. Then Biden lies his ass off in the debate and none of the moderators call him out on it. The whole thing is pathetic.

The bottom line is that Bernie's programs are the most popular among Americans. If Biden plays this middle of the road game plan which appeases Wall Street, the fossil fuel industry, and the top 1%, he'll be done in 4 years too.

[GONYK]

Bernie Sanders gets applauded at Fox News town halls because he cares about working people. It’s laughable at best to assume his election would cause a right wing counterpart. His rise is a reaction to right wing fascists and the Moderates that enable them. Not the other way around.

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

It's true to Bernie's supporters did not come out and vote in the way we needed them to. There is a result of a combination of things, i.e. "excuses." One issue is disfranchisement making it difficult to vote in many rural communities. The other aspect of this is that many students live out of state. Still, they voted for him more in '16. The other issue is the constant bombardment of Bernie on mainstream news outlets which call him a Communist, continually point out problems with him and his campaign. "He's not a 'Democrat'!" chants, etc. Then you had Obama pulling strings behind the curtain, circling the wagons in order to undermine Bernie's campaign. If Barack wanted to endorse someone, then fine. But this was dirty. Then Biden lies his ass off in the debate and none of the moderators call him out on it. The whole thing is pathetic.

The point is that Bernie's programs are the most popular among Americans.

I mean, this happens in every election. Endorsements, backroom dealing, etc... This is tantamount to arguing that politics is what kept Bernie down.

Bernie had money. He could have put out his own messaging. Once Bernie hit the general election, Trump and the GOP were going to say the same things about him. If he couldn't overcome it in the primary, why would he overcome it in the general?

I don't deny that the voting lines are a serious problem, but I don't think it equates to disenfranchisement (unless you are referring to something I'm unaware of). It is a massive inconvenience that Bernie was counting on his supporters to power through.

Bernie knew the establishment did not support him, and campaigned with that expectation. He told his supporters that every chance he got. It was a vital part of his message. Yet, they chose to stay home and watch The Resident rather than stand in line for 4 hours for one night of their life. They chose not to vote early or mail in their ballot. They chose convenience over the cause. As a progressive, this should be unforgivable. If there was any genuine momentum, they are the ones who killed it.

One thing Marty McFly was right about is that Bernie's chances were killed by people who don't have a sense of history.

I know it may come across that I'm anti-Bernie, but I'm not. As long as you have on a blue tie in this election, I support you.

I actually preferred Bernie getting to a brokered convention with a plurality and having to do some consensus building to him just getting his ass kicked up and down the block by Biden.

I support the policies he stands for. I just don't think it is helpful to ignore that America had a very clear choice in two primaries, and rejected Bernie each time. FWIW, they rejected Warren even more definitively.

To write that off as "it only happened because of Obama and the media" robs the opportunity to improve on the weaknesses of his campaign and Warren's campaign to actually get a progressive elected.

[HarthorneWingo]

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

It's true to Bernie's supporters did not come out and vote in the way we needed them to. There is a result of a combination of things, i.e. "excuses." One issue is disfranchisement making it difficult to vote in many rural communities. The other aspect of this is that many students live out of state. Still, they voted for him more in '16. The other issue is the constant bombardment of Bernie on mainstream news outlets which call him a Communist, continually point out problems with him and his campaign. "He's not a 'Democrat'!" chants, etc. Then you had Obama pulling strings behind the curtain, circling the wagons in order to undermine Bernie's campaign. If Barack wanted to endorse someone, then fine. But this was dirty. Then Biden lies his ass off in the debate and none of the moderators call him out on it. The whole thing is pathetic.

The point is that Bernie's programs are the most popular among Americans.

I mean, this happens in every election. Endorsements, backroom dealing, etc... This is tantamount to arguing that politics is what kept Bernie down.

Bernie had money. He could have put out his own messaging. Once Bernie hit the general election, Trump and the GOP were going to say the same things about him. If he couldn't overcome it in the primary, why would he overcome it in the general?

I don't deny that the voting lines are a serious problem, but I don't think it equates to disenfranchisement (unless you are referring to something I'm unaware of). It is a massive inconvenience that Bernie was counting on his supporters to power through.

Bernie knew the establishment did not support him, and campaigned with that expectation. He told his supporters that every chance he got. It was a vital part of his message. Yet, they chose to stay home and watch The Resident rather than stand in line for 4 hours for one night of their life. They chose not to vote early or mail in their ballot. They chose convenience over the cause. As a progressive, this should be unforgivable. If there was any genuine momentum, they are the ones who killed it.

One thing Marty McFly was right about is that Bernie's chances were killed by people who don't have a sense of history.

I know it may come across that I'm anti-Bernie, but I'm not. As long as you have on a blue tie in this election, I support you.

I actually preferred Bernie getting to a brokered convention with a plurality and having to do some consensus building to him just getting his ass kicked up and down the block by Biden.

I support the policies he stands for. I just don't think it is helpful to ignore that America had a very clear choice in two primaries, and rejected Bernie each time. FWIW, they rejected Warren even more definitively.

To write that off as "it only happened because of Obama and the media" robs the opportunity to improve on the weaknesses of his campaign and Warren's campaign to actually get a progressive elected.

Because I think that the Biden voter, like Clyde said, is more willing to vote "blue no matter who" whereas the Bernie voter is trying to change the system. In today's world, Democrats just want to beat Trump and are going with "all the experts" who say that Joe is the most electable. I think the same voters would come out to vote for Bernie.

As for the student vote, I'm talking about the closing of many polling places leaving the ones which aren't accessible to public transportation, the rules making it difficult to vote from out of state which can be intimidating to a first time voter. These are just structural issues that make it difficult for some people to vote here. Is the reason why Bernie lost? No. But he certainly did not lose because of his policies. Look at how many policies Biden now agrees with Bernie on. Biden was never a champion of them. Quite the opposite. Bernie, however, has been championing them for four or five decades.

Why do you think he lost in the way he did?

[Clyde_Style]

Bernie Sanders gets applauded at Fox News town halls because he cares about working people. It’s laughable at best to assume his election would cause a right wing counterpart. His rise is a reaction to right wing fascists and the Moderates that enable them. Not the other way around.

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

It's true to Bernie's supporters did not come out and vote in the way we needed them to. There is a result of a combination of things, i.e. "excuses." One issue is disfranchisement making it difficult to vote in many rural communities. The other aspect of this is that many students live out of state. Still, they voted for him more in '16. The other issue is the constant bombardment of Bernie on mainstream news outlets which call him a Communist, continually point out problems with him and his campaign. "He's not a 'Democrat'!" chants, etc. Then you had Obama pulling strings behind the curtain, circling the wagons in order to undermine Bernie's campaign. If Barack wanted to endorse someone, then fine. But this was dirty. Then Biden lies his ass off in the debate and none of the moderators call him out on it. The whole thing is pathetic.

The bottom line is that Bernie's programs are the most popular among Americans. If Biden plays this middle of the road game plan which appeases Wall Street, the fossil fuel industry, and the top 1%, he'll be done in 4 years too.

With all due respect, if the bold were true it would be reflected in the primary results.

All of the conspiring forces in the world still don't change the fact Bernie failed to win the popular vote. That's what "bottom line" actually means, he does not have the numbers, thus you do not get to say his policies are the most popular.

I have always said that working class voters vote against their own self-interest by supporting the GOP, but that's reality. To argue that a vote for the GOP is the product of brainwashing can certainly be argued, but it still equates to an endorsement of their policies.

Now, does the majority want more equitable policies and less corruption? Sure they do, but right now survival of the system is clearly a primary factor and progressive changes a secondary factor. Beating Trump is the # 1 issue. That does not mean nothing else matters. It merely means it is the current driving factor behind the choices of many voters in this primary.

Since the choice is highly binary, there is going to be a bludgeoning effect on certain issues in service of a higher value which in this case is beating and surviving fascism. I thing we should pay more respect to this need to beat these Nazis. It is quite a high value which very much goes to the heart of historical memory. You have Marty in here saying we don't know history. Yeah, we do. And an older generation like yours and mine should be able to say very soberly to everyone younger, "yes, history does tell us we need to fight off the enemy first, then rebuild."

[Clyde_Style]

It's true to Bernie's supporters did not come out and vote in the way we needed them to. There is a result of a combination of things, i.e. "excuses." One issue is disfranchisement making it difficult to vote in many rural communities. The other aspect of this is that many students live out of state. Still, they voted for him more in '16. The other issue is the constant bombardment of Bernie on mainstream news outlets which call him a Communist, continually point out problems with him and his campaign. "He's not a 'Democrat'!" chants, etc. Then you had Obama pulling strings behind the curtain, circling the wagons in order to undermine Bernie's campaign. If Barack wanted to endorse someone, then fine. But this was dirty. Then Biden lies his ass off in the debate and none of the moderators call him out on it. The whole thing is pathetic.

The point is that Bernie's programs are the most popular among Americans.

I mean, this happens in every election. Endorsements, backroom dealing, etc... This is tantamount to arguing that politics is what kept Bernie down.

Bernie had money. He could have put out his own messaging. Once Bernie hit the general election, Trump and the GOP were going to say the same things about him. If he couldn't overcome it in the primary, why would he overcome it in the general?

I don't deny that the voting lines are a serious problem, but I don't think it equates to disenfranchisement (unless you are referring to something I'm unaware of). It is a massive inconvenience that Bernie was counting on his supporters to power through.

Bernie knew the establishment did not support him, and campaigned with that expectation. He told his supporters that every chance he got. It was a vital part of his message. Yet, they chose to stay home and watch The Resident rather than stand in line for 4 hours for one night of their life. They chose not to vote early or mail in their ballot. They chose convenience over the cause. As a progressive, this should be unforgivable. If there was any genuine momentum, they are the ones who killed it.

One thing Marty McFly was right about is that Bernie's chances were killed by people who don't have a sense of history.

I know it may come across that I'm anti-Bernie, but I'm not. As long as you have on a blue tie in this election, I support you.

I actually preferred Bernie getting to a brokered convention with a plurality and having to do some consensus building to him just getting his ass kicked up and down the block by Biden.

I support the policies he stands for. I just don't think it is helpful to ignore that America had a very clear choice in two primaries, and rejected Bernie each time. FWIW, they rejected Warren even more definitively.

To write that off as "it only happened because of Obama and the media" robs the opportunity to improve on the weaknesses of his campaign and Warren's campaign to actually get a progressive elected.

Because I think that the Biden voter, like Clyde said, is more willing to vote "blue no matter who" whereas the Bernie voter is trying to change the system. In today's world, Democrats just want to beat Trump and are going with "all the experts" who say that Joe is the most electable. I think the same voters would come out to vote for Bernie.

As for the student vote, I'm talking about the closing of many polling places leaving the ones which aren't accessible to public transportation, the rules making it difficult to vote from out of state which can be intimidating to a first time voter. These are just structural issues that make it difficult for some people to vote here. Is the reason why Bernie lost? No. But he certainly did not lose because of his policies. Look at how many policies Biden now agrees with Bernie on. Biden was never a champion of them. Quite the opposite. Bernie, however, has been championing them for four or five decades.

Why do you think he lost in the way he did?

You want to change the system, you need to beat the GOP. That means banding together with the "blue" voters. Sorry, Bernie can't win the nomination so it serves no purpose now to pretend there is an alternative to beating Trump and McConnell and reforming the party from within. THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE, unless you think re-electing Trump is an option.

I know you don't believe that, because we both know four more years of the GOP means the destruction of the Constitution, the end of the separation of church and state, the rise of evangelical governance, the complete triumph of the executive branch over the checks and balances of the legislature and the judiciary. Four more years and we will have true autocracy without the possibility of reform. There will be nothing left to fix but smoke, ashes and true enslavement to a corporate, police state that controls EVERYONE. So let's stop dicking around with the idea there is any option besides beating them, OK?

[HarthorneWingo]

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

It's true to Bernie's supporters did not come out and vote in the way we needed them to. There is a result of a combination of things, i.e. "excuses." One issue is disfranchisement making it difficult to vote in many rural communities. The other aspect of this is that many students live out of state. Still, they voted for him more in '16. The other issue is the constant bombardment of Bernie on mainstream news outlets which call him a Communist, continually point out problems with him and his campaign. "He's not a 'Democrat'!" chants, etc. Then you had Obama pulling strings behind the curtain, circling the wagons in order to undermine Bernie's campaign. If Barack wanted to endorse someone, then fine. But this was dirty. Then Biden lies his ass off in the debate and none of the moderators call him out on it. The whole thing is pathetic.

The bottom line is that Bernie's programs are the most popular among Americans. If Biden plays this middle of the road game plan which appeases Wall Street, the fossil fuel industry, and the top 1%, he'll be done in 4 years too.

With all due respect, if the bold were true it would be reflected in the primary results.

All of the conspiring forces in the world still don't change the fact Bernie failed to win the popular vote. That's what "bottom line" actually means, he does not have the numbers, thus you do not get to say his policies are the most popular.

I have always said that working class voters vote against their own self-interest by supporting the GOP, but that's reality. To argue that a vote for the GOP is the product of brainwashing can certainly be argued, but it still equates to an endorsement of their policies.

Now, does the majority want more equitable policies and less corruption? Sure they do, but right now survival of the system is clearly a primary factor and progressive changes a secondary factor. Beating Trump is the # 1 issue. That does not mean nothing else matters. It merely means it is the current driving factor behind the choices of many voters in this primary.

Since the choice is highly binary, there is going to be a bludgeoning effect on certain issues in service of a higher value which in this case is beating and surviving fascism. I thing we should pay more respect to this need to beat these Nazis. It is quite a high value which very much goes to the heart of historical memory. You have Marty in here saying we don't know history. Yeah, we do. And an older generation like yours and mine should be able to say very soberly to everyone younger, "yes, history does tell us we need to fight off the enemy first, then rebuild."

Not necessarily. Again, people voted on "electability." We know that. It's not in dispute. Look at the exit polling done.

[Stannis]

I'm not sure I'm seeing this.

Biden is like every politician we've seen before. He doesn't inspire hatred really. If he ran in 2016, he would have won. Hillary lost because she was so polarizing, and because there was a racial backlash against Obama.

Biden doesn't carry that same antipathy. That's why bringing up what he voted for 20 years ago has not been an effective strategy. Nobody really cares, because they generally like and trust the guy. Beyond that, people generally trust the establishment when it comes to their politics. I think the swift coalescence around the establishment candidate is proof of that.

Bernie, on the other hand, is a self-described democratic socialist. I can't see a bigger boogeyman for the GOP to run against than that, since socialist is the slur the GOP uses to gin up their base.

They would counter with an ultra-conservative. Like the worst version of Ted Cruz.

I guess the bigger question is what do you think Trump being elected was in response to?

I think the we both don't see eye-to-eye mainly because our different views of Obama. I think his whole hope appearance was an act. He was a bad man. And this is not an unpopular opinion for non-republicans.

It would probably be best for Biden not to have Obama promoting/endorsing him during election time actually.

When democrats put a corrupt man as president, the GOP will 1-up you. That is the point. I see Biden being a rehashed Obama.

We can keep saying if Bernie's policy was the best or if he was really for the people, it would be reflected in the results. But America has showed misjudgment many times. It's nothing new. We just saw it in 2016 when citizens carried Trump to a presidency. It doesn't mean he was the right choice.

[Clyde_Style]

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

It's true to Bernie's supporters did not come out and vote in the way we needed them to. There is a result of a combination of things, i.e. "excuses." One issue is disfranchisement making it difficult to vote in many rural communities. The other aspect of this is that many students live out of state. Still, they voted for him more in '16. The other issue is the constant bombardment of Bernie on mainstream news outlets which call him a Communist, continually point out problems with him and his campaign. "He's not a 'Democrat'!" chants, etc. Then you had Obama pulling strings behind the curtain, circling the wagons in order to undermine Bernie's campaign. If Barack wanted to endorse someone, then fine. But this was dirty. Then Biden lies his ass off in the debate and none of the moderators call him out on it. The whole thing is pathetic.

The point is that Bernie's programs are the most popular among Americans.

I mean, this happens in every election. Endorsements, backroom dealing, etc... This is tantamount to arguing that politics is what kept Bernie down.

Bernie had money. He could have put out his own messaging. Once Bernie hit the general election, Trump and the GOP were going to say the same things about him. If he couldn't overcome it in the primary, why would he overcome it in the general?

I don't deny that the voting lines are a serious problem, but I don't think it equates to disenfranchisement (unless you are referring to something I'm unaware of). It is a massive inconvenience that Bernie was counting on his supporters to power through.

Bernie knew the establishment did not support him, and campaigned with that expectation. He told his supporters that every chance he got. It was a vital part of his message. Yet, they chose to stay home and watch The Resident rather than stand in line for 4 hours for one night of their life. They chose not to vote early or mail in their ballot. They chose convenience over the cause. As a progressive, this should be unforgivable. If there was any genuine momentum, they are the ones who killed it.

One thing Marty McFly was right about is that Bernie's chances were killed by people who don't have a sense of history.

I know it may come across that I'm anti-Bernie, but I'm not. As long as you have on a blue tie in this election, I support you.

I actually preferred Bernie getting to a brokered convention with a plurality and having to do some consensus building to him just getting his ass kicked up and down the block by Biden.

I support the policies he stands for. I just don't think it is helpful to ignore that America had a very clear choice in two primaries, and rejected Bernie each time. FWIW, they rejected Warren even more definitively.

To write that off as "it only happened because of Obama and the media" robs the opportunity to improve on the weaknesses of his campaign and Warren's campaign to actually get a progressive elected.

Bravo, well said.

I can echo that by saying I love Warren and you don't see me in here pointing fingers at anyone saying they lack wisdom because they didn't support her over Bernie.

We don't have the luxury of acting so damn butt-hurt. Less than a month ago, I was excited as hell that Warren might have had her breakthrough moment in the campaign. Her donations surged like crazy the night of the Nevada debate when she effectively ended Bloomberg's run single-handedly.

But when the numbers rolled in, she was way back in the pack still. I was bummed. But I regrouped.

And I respect that Warren did too. She's a smart woman and she also knows that if she or Bernie can't be the nominee, then we have to beat the GOP NO MATTER WHAT.

If a strong Warren supporter can deal with their disappointment, then so can Bernie supporters. Get on with it guys. We still have to beat these bastards.

[GONYK]

It's true to Bernie's supporters did not come out and vote in the way we needed them to. There is a result of a combination of things, i.e. "excuses." One issue is disfranchisement making it difficult to vote in many rural communities. The other aspect of this is that many students live out of state. Still, they voted for him more in '16. The other issue is the constant bombardment of Bernie on mainstream news outlets which call him a Communist, continually point out problems with him and his campaign. "He's not a 'Democrat'!" chants, etc. Then you had Obama pulling strings behind the curtain, circling the wagons in order to undermine Bernie's campaign. If Barack wanted to endorse someone, then fine. But this was dirty. Then Biden lies his ass off in the debate and none of the moderators call him out on it. The whole thing is pathetic.

The point is that Bernie's programs are the most popular among Americans.

I mean, this happens in every election. Endorsements, backroom dealing, etc... This is tantamount to arguing that politics is what kept Bernie down.

Bernie had money. He could have put out his own messaging. Once Bernie hit the general election, Trump and the GOP were going to say the same things about him. If he couldn't overcome it in the primary, why would he overcome it in the general?

I don't deny that the voting lines are a serious problem, but I don't think it equates to disenfranchisement (unless you are referring to something I'm unaware of). It is a massive inconvenience that Bernie was counting on his supporters to power through.

Bernie knew the establishment did not support him, and campaigned with that expectation. He told his supporters that every chance he got. It was a vital part of his message. Yet, they chose to stay home and watch The Resident rather than stand in line for 4 hours for one night of their life. They chose not to vote early or mail in their ballot. They chose convenience over the cause. As a progressive, this should be unforgivable. If there was any genuine momentum, they are the ones who killed it.

One thing Marty McFly was right about is that Bernie's chances were killed by people who don't have a sense of history.

I know it may come across that I'm anti-Bernie, but I'm not. As long as you have on a blue tie in this election, I support you.

I actually preferred Bernie getting to a brokered convention with a plurality and having to do some consensus building to him just getting his ass kicked up and down the block by Biden.

I support the policies he stands for. I just don't think it is helpful to ignore that America had a very clear choice in two primaries, and rejected Bernie each time. FWIW, they rejected Warren even more definitively.

To write that off as "it only happened because of Obama and the media" robs the opportunity to improve on the weaknesses of his campaign and Warren's campaign to actually get a progressive elected.

Because I think that the Biden voter, like Clyde said, is more willing to vote "blue no matter who" whereas the Bernie voter is trying to change the system. In today's world, Democrats just want to beat Trump and are going with "all the experts" who say that Joe is the most electable. I think the same voters would come out to vote for Bernie.

This equates to a Bernie messaging problem to me.

As for the student vote, I'm talking about the closing of many polling places leaving the ones which aren't accessible to public transportation, the rules making it difficult to vote from out of state which can be intimidating to a first time voter. These are just structural issues that make it difficult for some people to vote here. Is the reason why Bernie lost? No. But he certainly did not lose because of the issues.

This is fringe stuff. Problematic? Without a doubt. But it doesn't account for 30 point losses.

Why do you think he lost in the way he did?

Big picture and without much nuance? He's losing because his base is only around 25-30% of the Democratic electorate and that he never catered his message to those outside of his base. That's why his support never grew when people dropped out, and 70% of the votes were always against him.

As people say, he's had the same message for 30 years, and it is a class based one. That doesn't appeal to everyone on its face. Yes, when they dig into the policy, most find something they like, but people don't generally resonate with policy.

I also think there was a serious pessimism towards his ability to actually get anything he's campaigning on done. Pragmatism will usually beat ideology, especially when people see the election as high stakes.

Most importantly, he did not cater his message to black support, which will kill you every time in the Dem primary. Jim Clyburn said that in SC specifically, people resonated more with the message of being able to afford college, not getting college for free. I think there is something there to be unpacked in another discussion.

Now, Biden didn't run a fantastic campaign by any stretch, but his coalition is broader and he got support from his base when it counted. Plus he has that Obama shine.

[Clyde_Style]

It's true to Bernie's supporters did not come out and vote in the way we needed them to. There is a result of a combination of things, i.e. "excuses." One issue is disfranchisement making it difficult to vote in many rural communities. The other aspect of this is that many students live out of state. Still, they voted for him more in '16. The other issue is the constant bombardment of Bernie on mainstream news outlets which call him a Communist, continually point out problems with him and his campaign. "He's not a 'Democrat'!" chants, etc. Then you had Obama pulling strings behind the curtain, circling the wagons in order to undermine Bernie's campaign. If Barack wanted to endorse someone, then fine. But this was dirty. Then Biden lies his ass off in the debate and none of the moderators call him out on it. The whole thing is pathetic.

The bottom line is that Bernie's programs are the most popular among Americans. If Biden plays this middle of the road game plan which appeases Wall Street, the fossil fuel industry, and the top 1%, he'll be done in 4 years too.

With all due respect, if the bold were true it would be reflected in the primary results.

All of the conspiring forces in the world still don't change the fact Bernie failed to win the popular vote. That's what "bottom line" actually means, he does not have the numbers, thus you do not get to say his policies are the most popular.

I have always said that working class voters vote against their own self-interest by supporting the GOP, but that's reality. To argue that a vote for the GOP is the product of brainwashing can certainly be argued, but it still equates to an endorsement of their policies.

Now, does the majority want more equitable policies and less corruption? Sure they do, but right now survival of the system is clearly a primary factor and progressive changes a secondary factor. Beating Trump is the # 1 issue. That does not mean nothing else matters. It merely means it is the current driving factor behind the choices of many voters in this primary.

Since the choice is highly binary, there is going to be a bludgeoning effect on certain issues in service of a higher value which in this case is beating and surviving fascism. I thing we should pay more respect to this need to beat these Nazis. It is quite a high value which very much goes to the heart of historical memory. You have Marty in here saying we don't know history. Yeah, we do. And an older generation like yours and mine should be able to say very soberly to everyone younger, "yes, history does tell us we need to fight off the enemy first, then rebuild."

Not necessarily. Again, people voted on "electability." We know that. It's not in dispute. Look at the exit polling done.

You want everything when you don't get everything. The nominee is no longer in our hands so what do you want me to say to you? Keep complaining? OK, do that if you want to. Or maybe we can start being constructive and dealing with the situation we actually have to deal with and be real clear that even if you hate the binary reality, the choice is stark and clear. The resentment is getting really overdone. You hate the system? Well, fix it. You've lived too long to know you're not going to have a wholesale change overnight, so all the revolutionary fervor doesn't wear well at this point. It is ineffectual and thus useless. Be constructive please.

[HarthorneWingo]

I'm not sure I'm seeing this.

Biden is like every politician we've seen before. He doesn't inspire hatred really. If he ran in 2016, he would have won. Hillary lost because she was so polarizing, and because there was a racial backlash against Obama.

Biden doesn't carry that same antipathy. That's why bringing up what he voted for 20 years ago has not been an effective strategy. Nobody really cares, because they generally like and trust the guy. Beyond that, people generally trust the establishment when it comes to their politics. I think the swift coalescence around the establishment candidate is proof of that.

Bernie, on the other hand, is a self-described democratic socialist. I can't see a bigger boogeyman for the GOP to run against than that, since socialist is the slur the GOP uses to gin up their base.

They would counter with an ultra-conservative. Like the worst version of Ted Cruz.

I guess the bigger question is what do you think Trump being elected was in response to?

I think the we both don't see eye-to-eye mainly because our different views of Obama. I think his whole hope appearance was an act. He was a bad man. And this is not an unpopular opinion for non-republicans.

It would probably be best for Biden not to have Obama promoting/endorsing him during election time actually.

When democrats put a corrupt man as president, the GOP will 1-up you. That is the point. I see Biden being a rehashed Obama.

We can keep saying if Bernie's policy was the best or if he was really for the people, it would be reflected in the results. But America has showed misjudgment many times. It's nothing new. We just saw it in 2016 when citizens carried Trump to a presidency. It doesn't mean he was the right choice.

The polling on Bernie's signature Medicare for All plan show slightly more than half of Americans in support. That's Bernie's plan, not Joe Biden's. That, of course, would jump up greatly once Americans experienced the benefits of it.

What great new ideas does Joe Biden bring to the table because I don't see any. I see him adopting Warren's and Bernie's ideas and then preaching that he's the only guy who can do it because of his experience.

-M4A
-Wealth Tax
-Green New Deal
-Repeal Bankruptcy bill
-Free state college tuition
-Marginal income tax
-Packing the Supreme Court
-etc.

Which of these came from Biden?

[GONYK]

I'm not sure I'm seeing this.

Biden is like every politician we've seen before. He doesn't inspire hatred really. If he ran in 2016, he would have won. Hillary lost because she was so polarizing, and because there was a racial backlash against Obama.

Biden doesn't carry that same antipathy. That's why bringing up what he voted for 20 years ago has not been an effective strategy. Nobody really cares, because they generally like and trust the guy. Beyond that, people generally trust the establishment when it comes to their politics. I think the swift coalescence around the establishment candidate is proof of that.

Bernie, on the other hand, is a self-described democratic socialist. I can't see a bigger boogeyman for the GOP to run against than that, since socialist is the slur the GOP uses to gin up their base.

They would counter with an ultra-conservative. Like the worst version of Ted Cruz.

I guess the bigger question is what do you think Trump being elected was in response to?

I think the we both don't see eye-to-eye mainly because our different views of Obama. I think his whole hope appearance was an act. He was a bad man. And this is not an unpopular opinion for non-republicans.

It would probably be best for Biden not to have Obama promoting/endorsing him during election time actually.

Very astute observation, and I think you're probably right.

I would vote for Obama again if I could. I think this primary is also showing that so would a large majority of the Democratic coalition in America.

When democrats put a corrupt man as president, the GOP will 1-up you. That is the point. I see Biden being a rehashed Obama.

We can keep saying if Bernie's policy was the best or if he was really for the people, it would be reflected in the results. But America has showed misjudgment many times. It's nothing new. We just saw it in 2016 when citizens carried Trump to a presidency. It doesn't mean he was the right choice.

I didn't categorize a choice in either direction as right or wrong. I am saying that it is what the people want.

In Trump's case, the majority voted against him. It was really 10,000 people in Michigan and Pennsylvania that made him President.

If Biden had razor thin margins like that, this would be a much different primary.

[HarthorneWingo]

I'm not sure I'm seeing this.

Biden is like every politician we've seen before. He doesn't inspire hatred really. If he ran in 2016, he would have won. Hillary lost because she was so polarizing, and because there was a racial backlash against Obama.

Biden doesn't carry that same antipathy. That's why bringing up what he voted for 20 years ago has not been an effective strategy. Nobody really cares, because they generally like and trust the guy. Beyond that, people generally trust the establishment when it comes to their politics. I think the swift coalescence around the establishment candidate is proof of that.

Bernie, on the other hand, is a self-described democratic socialist. I can't see a bigger boogeyman for the GOP to run against than that, since socialist is the slur the GOP uses to gin up their base.

They would counter with an ultra-conservative. Like the worst version of Ted Cruz.

I guess the bigger question is what do you think Trump being elected was in response to?

I think the we both don't see eye-to-eye mainly because our different views of Obama. I think his whole hope appearance was an act. He was a bad man. And this is not an unpopular opinion for non-republicans.

It would probably be best for Biden not to have Obama promoting/endorsing him during election time actually.

Very astute observation, and I think you're probably right.

I would vote for Obama again if I could. I think this primary is also showing that so would a large majority of the Democratic coalition in America.

When democrats put a corrupt man as president, the GOP will 1-up you. That is the point. I see Biden being a rehashed Obama.

We can keep saying if Bernie's policy was the best or if he was really for the people, it would be reflected in the results. But America has showed misjudgment many times. It's nothing new. We just saw it in 2016 when citizens carried Trump to a presidency. It doesn't mean he was the right choice.

I didn't categorize a choice in either direction as right or wrong. I am saying that it is what the people are made to THINK THEY want.

In Trump's case, the majority voted against him. It was really 10,000 people in Michigan and Pennsylvania that made him President.

If Biden had razor thin margins like that, this would be a much different primary.

FIFY

Watch on YouTube

[GONYK]

I'm not sure I'm seeing this.

Biden is like every politician we've seen before. He doesn't inspire hatred really. If he ran in 2016, he would have won. Hillary lost because she was so polarizing, and because there was a racial backlash against Obama.

Biden doesn't carry that same antipathy. That's why bringing up what he voted for 20 years ago has not been an effective strategy. Nobody really cares, because they generally like and trust the guy. Beyond that, people generally trust the establishment when it comes to their politics. I think the swift coalescence around the establishment candidate is proof of that.

Bernie, on the other hand, is a self-described democratic socialist. I can't see a bigger boogeyman for the GOP to run against than that, since socialist is the slur the GOP uses to gin up their base.

They would counter with an ultra-conservative. Like the worst version of Ted Cruz.

I guess the bigger question is what do you think Trump being elected was in response to?

I think the we both don't see eye-to-eye mainly because our different views of Obama. I think his whole hope appearance was an act. He was a bad man. And this is not an unpopular opinion for non-republicans.

It would probably be best for Biden not to have Obama promoting/endorsing him during election time actually.

When democrats put a corrupt man as president, the GOP will 1-up you. That is the point. I see Biden being a rehashed Obama.

We can keep saying if Bernie's policy was the best or if he was really for the people, it would be reflected in the results. But America has showed misjudgment many times. It's nothing new. We just saw it in 2016 when citizens carried Trump to a presidency. It doesn't mean he was the right choice.

The polling on Bernie's signature Medicare for All plan show slightly more than half of Americans in support. That's Bernie's plan, not Joe Biden's. That, of course, would jump up greatly once Americans experienced the benefits of it.

What great new ideas does Joe Biden bring to the table because I don't see any. I see him adopting Warren's and Bernie's ideas and then preaching that he's the only guy who can do it because of his experience.

-M4A
-Wealth Tax
-Green New Deal
-Repeal Bankruptcy bill
-Free state college tuition
-Marginal income tax
-Packing the Supreme Court
-etc.

Which of these came from Biden?

That's missing the forest for the trees, IMO.

I think what that says is that people value a person they trust to make America normal again more than policies, because the last 12 years has shown that no meaningful policy will really get implemented.

[HarthorneWingo]

I think the we both don't see eye-to-eye mainly because our different views of Obama. I think his whole hope appearance was an act. He was a bad man. And this is not an unpopular opinion for non-republicans.

It would probably be best for Biden not to have Obama promoting/endorsing him during election time actually.

When democrats put a corrupt man as president, the GOP will 1-up you. That is the point. I see Biden being a rehashed Obama.

We can keep saying if Bernie's policy was the best or if he was really for the people, it would be reflected in the results. But America has showed misjudgment many times. It's nothing new. We just saw it in 2016 when citizens carried Trump to a presidency. It doesn't mean he was the right choice.

The polling on Bernie's signature Medicare for All plan show slightly more than half of Americans in support. That's Bernie's plan, not Joe Biden's. That, of course, would jump up greatly once Americans experienced the benefits of it.

What great new ideas does Joe Biden bring to the table because I don't see any. I see him adopting Warren's and Bernie's ideas and then preaching that he's the only guy who can do it because of his experience.

-M4A
-Wealth Tax
-Green New Deal
-Repeal Bankruptcy bill
-Free state college tuition
-Marginal income tax
-Packing the Supreme Court
-etc.

Which of these came from Biden?

That's missing the forest for the trees, IMO.

I think what that says is that people value a person they trust to make America normal again more than policies, because the last 12 years has shown that no meaningful policy will really get implemented.

How did that work out in 2016 when the DNC ran the same experienced person. The person, by the way, that was rammed up our asses.

[GONYK]

I think the we both don't see eye-to-eye mainly because our different views of Obama. I think his whole hope appearance was an act. He was a bad man. And this is not an unpopular opinion for non-republicans.

It would probably be best for Biden not to have Obama promoting/endorsing him during election time actually.

Very astute observation, and I think you're probably right.

I would vote for Obama again if I could. I think this primary is also showing that so would a large majority of the Democratic coalition in America.

When democrats put a corrupt man as president, the GOP will 1-up you. That is the point. I see Biden being a rehashed Obama.

We can keep saying if Bernie's policy was the best or if he was really for the people, it would be reflected in the results. But America has showed misjudgment many times. It's nothing new. We just saw it in 2016 when citizens carried Trump to a presidency. It doesn't mean he was the right choice.

I didn't categorize a choice in either direction as right or wrong. I am saying that it is what the people are made to THINK THEY want.

In Trump's case, the majority voted against him. It was really 10,000 people in Michigan and Pennsylvania that made him President.

If Biden had razor thin margins like that, this would be a much different primary.

FIFY

Watch on YouTube

I agree with everything Carlin said.

Politics is a game of persuasion and coalition building though, and Bernie didn't get the job done on that front.

Which is why you should be more mad at the people who also agree with him and didn't vote. They are not ignorant. They are not uninformed. They are not just doing what the media told them.

They are just lazy

You can't expect others to do the work of a revolution for you.

[HarthorneWingo]

With all due respect, if the bold were true it would be reflected in the primary results.

All of the conspiring forces in the world still don't change the fact Bernie failed to win the popular vote. That's what "bottom line" actually means, he does not have the numbers, thus you do not get to say his policies are the most popular.

I have always said that working class voters vote against their own self-interest by supporting the GOP, but that's reality. To argue that a vote for the GOP is the product of brainwashing can certainly be argued, but it still equates to an endorsement of their policies.

Now, does the majority want more equitable policies and less corruption? Sure they do, but right now survival of the system is clearly a primary factor and progressive changes a secondary factor. Beating Trump is the # 1 issue. That does not mean nothing else matters. It merely means it is the current driving factor behind the choices of many voters in this primary.

Since the choice is highly binary, there is going to be a bludgeoning effect on certain issues in service of a higher value which in this case is beating and surviving fascism. I thing we should pay more respect to this need to beat these Nazis. It is quite a high value which very much goes to the heart of historical memory. You have Marty in here saying we don't know history. Yeah, we do. And an older generation like yours and mine should be able to say very soberly to everyone younger, "yes, history does tell us we need to fight off the enemy first, then rebuild."

Not necessarily. Again, people voted on "electability." We know that. It's not in dispute. Look at the exit polling done.

You want everything when you don't get everything. The nominee is no longer in our hands so what do you want me to say to you? Keep complaining? OK, do that if you want to. Or maybe we can start being constructive and dealing with the situation we actually have to deal with and be real clear that even if you hate the binary reality, the choice is stark and clear. The resentment is getting really overdone. You hate the system? Well, fix it. You've lived too long to know you're not going to have a wholesale change overnight, so all the revolutionary fervor doesn't wear well at this point. It is ineffectual and thus useless. Be constructive please.

LOL, I'm complaining because the system we have is not generating the best candidate who will promote the necessary policies with need to survive. Forget about thrive. I asked what great ideas has Biden brought to the table and no one can come up with anything. You then attack me for complaining. You got to be kidding me.