OT: Democratic Primary Thread

[HarthorneWingo]

I'm gonna watch some Chris Hayes and eat some dinner while you digest all my great thoughts and ideas.

[GONYK]

The polling on Bernie's signature Medicare for All plan show slightly more than half of Americans in support. That's Bernie's plan, not Joe Biden's. That, of course, would jump up greatly once Americans experienced the benefits of it.

What great new ideas does Joe Biden bring to the table because I don't see any. I see him adopting Warren's and Bernie's ideas and then preaching that he's the only guy who can do it because of his experience.

-M4A
-Wealth Tax
-Green New Deal
-Repeal Bankruptcy bill
-Free state college tuition
-Marginal income tax
-Packing the Supreme Court
-etc.

Which of these came from Biden?

That's missing the forest for the trees, IMO.

I think what that says is that people value a person they trust to make America normal again more than policies, because the last 12 years has shown that no meaningful policy will really get implemented.

How did that work out in 2016 when the DNC ran the same experienced person. The person, by the way, that was rammed up our asses.

Nobody likes Hillary though, and she still won the popular vote by 3M.

I think there were fundamental problems that were uniquely about Hillary Clinton the person, not a moderate candidate in general. That is why she lost in a place like Michigan in the primaries and Biden dominated there this year.

For the record, I think Biden and Bernie would have won in 2016.

[Clyde_Style]

Not necessarily. Again, people voted on "electability." We know that. It's not in dispute. Look at the exit polling done.

You want everything when you don't get everything. The nominee is no longer in our hands so what do you want me to say to you? Keep complaining? OK, do that if you want to. Or maybe we can start being constructive and dealing with the situation we actually have to deal with and be real clear that even if you hate the binary reality, the choice is stark and clear. The resentment is getting really overdone. You hate the system? Well, fix it. You've lived too long to know you're not going to have a wholesale change overnight, so all the revolutionary fervor doesn't wear well at this point. It is ineffectual and thus useless. Be constructive please.

LOL, I'm complaining because the system we have is not generating the best candidate who will promote the necessary policies with need to survive. Forget about thrive. I asked what great ideas has Biden brought to the table and no one can come up with anything. You then attack me for complaining. You got to be kidding me.

Fine, Wingo

Your'e already living in the past

The voting public said they don't want Bernie as the nominee and you seem incapable of grasping this basic reality. You're still full of excuses and plenty of conspiratorial inferences that it was a sham

I don't really care if Joe Biden meets all your criteria, because he's the one going up against Trump whether you like it or not

So go ahead and spend the next 8 months venting about not getting what you wanted. Your choice

Meanwhile, I'll be focused on the primary issue of preventing fascism

The times call for compromise to do the right thing. Right now you seem incapable of focusing on that

[Marty McFly]

Bernie Sanders gets applauded at Fox News town halls because he cares about working people. It’s laughable at best to assume his election would cause a right wing counterpart. His rise is a reaction to right wing fascists and the Moderates that enable them. Not the other way around.

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

you love bad faith arguments which is why I didn’t bother answering you. You asked about the possibility of a right wing Bernie arising as a response to his rise, And you decide to Argue “what about...” yawn.

[duetta]

The polling on Bernie's signature Medicare for All plan show slightly more than half of Americans in support. That's Bernie's plan, not Joe Biden's. That, of course, would jump up greatly once Americans experienced the benefits of it.

This is not true. I posted the actual poll numbers in this thread the other day.

Once you ask people if they will support a system that eliminates their choice of a subsidized private insurer, doubtless through their place of employment, support plummets.

Facts are stubborn things. An overwhelming majority of Americans want the CHOICE of joining Medicare (or a public option); they do not want to be mandated into it.

If we attempt to force Bernie-style Medicare for All down the throats of a public that is clearly not yet ready for it, will we be slaughtered in the mid-terms, at the latest. And once we are, the GOP will back in Congress attempting to sabotage everything we just put in place, just like they did in 2010.

Also, while a straight Medicare for all would doubtless be cheaper than our current system, assuming you could gain the public support for its implementation, that plan that Bernie is advocating is much more extensive than anything that exists elsewhere. That plan would likely be more expensive than what we currently spend.

Once this Coronavirus disaster has run its course, we could be running a $1.5 trillion dollar annual deficit. The Republicans can get away with this kind of deficit spending because we don't attack them for it night and day. But the moment that we are in control, they will speak of nothing else. And the American people are not the brightest bulbs in the advanced industrial world. They watch lots of bad television and buy into lots of dishonest political messaging.

Honestly, too many of you are magical thinkers - believing in polling numbers that do not exist and voter surges that rarely if ever materialize. The Republicans do voodoo economics and the Sanders people do voodoo polling and politics.

[GONYK]

Bernie Sanders gets applauded at Fox News town halls because he cares about working people. It’s laughable at best to assume his election would cause a right wing counterpart. His rise is a reaction to right wing fascists and the Moderates that enable them. Not the other way around.

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

you love bad faith arguments which is why I didn’t bother answering you. You asked about the possibility of a right wing Bernie arising as a response to his rise, And you decide to Argue “what about...” yawn.

Ok

Vilifying those who think pragmatically is a major reason why Bernie is heading home

[Stannis]

Nobody likes Hillary though, and she still won the popular vote by 3M.

When you say it like that. Sounds like most people like her.

Very astute observation, and I think you're probably right.

I would vote for Obama again if I could. I think this primary is also showing that so would a large majority of the Democratic coalition in America.

I would have vote for Obama if I could have in 2008 if I was of age. I was really happy when he was elected. I was tired of Bush's war crimes. But Obama did the exact opposite of staying out of wars. In the end, I felt hoodwinked.

In Trump's case, the majority voted against him. It was really 10,000 people in Michigan and Pennsylvania that made him President.

It was still the majority in those states that got him elected. I don't like the electoral college, because I always feel I waste my vote in Tennessee. But it's still in the people's hands.

[Stannis]

I'm gonna watch some Chris Hayes and eat some dinner while you digest all my great thoughts and ideas.

lol Wingo

[Clyde_Style]

Bernie Sanders gets applause at Fox News town halls, but then his own base doesn't turn out to vote for him.

A common refrain from people who support Sanders is "if you don't vote for him, you must not care about the working people/poor people/sick people, etc..."

Your frustration should be pointed at the progressives who couldn't bother to wait in line, not the moderates who did.They are the ones who truly voted against their self-interests, and those of their fellow Americans, with their inaction.

It's also laughable to assume the Bernie Sanders will make the nation hold hands across political lines and sing kumbaya, and that the GOP would do nothing to villainize him and just accept their place in a new progressive world.

They would fight him tooth and nail, stop him from getting anything meaningful done, and then run a campaign saying that they are the only thing preventing Bernie from burning Constitution and turning this country into the next Greece.

Bernie's revolution was always predicated on energizing high turnout to overcome all other political obstacles. That strategy hasn't worked at the national level twice now, because his base doesn't turn out and his coalition doesn't grow.

I would hope that merits self-reflection, because as people in this thread point out, people are generally on board for Bernie's policies.

you love bad faith arguments which is why I didn’t bother answering you. You asked about the possibility of a right wing Bernie arising as a response to his rise, And you decide to Argue “what about...” yawn.

Ok

Vilifying those who think pragmatically is a major reason why Bernie is heading home

EXACTLY

[HarthorneWingo]

you love bad faith arguments which is why I didn’t bother answering you. You asked about the possibility of a right wing Bernie arising as a response to his rise, And you decide to Argue “what about...” yawn.

Ok

Vilifying those who think pragmatically is a major reason why Bernie is heading home

EXACTLY

Pragmatically? In the midst of a coronavirus pandemic, an ecomonic collapse, and on the brink of climate catastrophe. That's something. In case you haven't noticed, this pandemic is Exhibit A which will accelerate our move to a M4A system. The failure of our healthcare system is on full display for all to see. And we will realize the repercussions of our shortsightedness.

UBIs are the all the rage now. The lack of a human safety net is on full display. But Bernie is not "pragmatic." That's so absurd. Clyde, I'm surprised since you know from experience about the benefits of a social democratic system.

[Clyde_Style]

Ok

Vilifying those who think pragmatically is a major reason why Bernie is heading home

EXACTLY

Pragmatically? In the midst of a coronavirus pandemic, an ecomonic collapse, and on the brink of climate catastrophe. That's something. In case you haven't noticed, this pandemic is Exhibit A which will accelerate our move to a M4A system. The failure of our healthcare system is on full display for all to see. And we will realize the repercussions of our shortsightedness.

UBIs are the all the rage now. The lack of a human safety net is on full display. But Bernie is not "pragmatic." That's so absurd. Clyde, I'm surprised since you know from experience about the benefits of a social democratic system.

Of course, I said I'd like social democracy, but not full blown socialism.

Bernie's not going up against Trump, so the only thing I can offer you that is constructive is to follow my advice and get concessions out of Biden's team NOW. Otherwise, I think you're just farting in the wind.

[HarthorneWingo]

EXACTLY

Pragmatically? In the midst of a coronavirus pandemic, an ecomonic collapse, and on the brink of climate catastrophe. That's something. In case you haven't noticed, this pandemic is Exhibit A which will accelerate our move to a M4A system. The failure of our healthcare system is on full display for all to see. And we will realize the repercussions of our shortsightedness.

UBIs are the all the rage now. The lack of a human safety net is on full display. But Bernie is not "pragmatic." That's so absurd. Clyde, I'm surprised since you know from experience about the benefits of a social democratic system.

Of course, I said I'd like social democracy, but not full blown socialism.

Bernie's not going up against Trump, so the only thing I can offer you that is constructive is to follow my advice and get concessions out of Biden's team NOW. Otherwise, I think you're just farting in the wind.

Bernie is not "full blown socialism." Full blown socialism mean that government takes over the means of production. Bernie has NEVER proposed that. Bernie is a social democrat. Bernie is closest candidate we have to FDR. Biden is a shill for corporations from Delaware. Get a grip.

[Clyde_Style]

Pragmatically? In the midst of a coronavirus pandemic, an ecomonic collapse, and on the brink of climate catastrophe. That's something. In case you haven't noticed, this pandemic is Exhibit A which will accelerate our move to a M4A system. The failure of our healthcare system is on full display for all to see. And we will realize the repercussions of our shortsightedness.

UBIs are the all the rage now. The lack of a human safety net is on full display. But Bernie is not "pragmatic." That's so absurd. Clyde, I'm surprised since you know from experience about the benefits of a social democratic system.

Of course, I said I'd like social democracy, but not full blown socialism.

Bernie's not going up against Trump, so the only thing I can offer you that is constructive is to follow my advice and get concessions out of Biden's team NOW. Otherwise, I think you're just farting in the wind.

Bernie is not "full blown socialism." Full blown socialism mean that government takes over the means of production. Bernie is a social democrat. Bernie is closest candidate we have to FDR. Biden is a shill for corporations from Delaware. Get a grip.

I was talking about what I want. If you notice, I said "of course". I was agreeing on that

[HarthorneWingo]

Of course, I said I'd like social democracy, but not full blown socialism.

Bernie's not going up against Trump, so the only thing I can offer you that is constructive is to follow my advice and get concessions out of Biden's team NOW. Otherwise, I think you're just farting in the wind.

Bernie is not "full blown socialism." Full blown socialism mean that government takes over the means of production. Bernie is a social democrat. Bernie is closest candidate we have to FDR. Biden is a shill for corporations from Delaware. Get a grip.

I was talking about what I want. I was not commenting on who Bernie was. Stop

That's a great question. What DO you want? Just go down the list and tick them off for me. Healthcare, climate change, ecomonic inequality, immigration, marijuana, marijuana, bankruptcy, student debt, etc. You align with Bernie just like I do. lol

[Clyde_Style]

Bernie is not "full blown socialism." Full blown socialism mean that government takes over the means of production. Bernie is a social democrat. Bernie is closest candidate we have to FDR. Biden is a shill for corporations from Delaware. Get a grip.

I was talking about what I want. I was not commenting on who Bernie was. Stop

That's a great question. What DO you want? Just go down the list and tick them off for me. Healthcare, climate change, ecomonic inequality, immigration, marijuana, marijuana, bankruptcy, student debt, etc. You align with Bernie just like I do. lol

I guess you want to talk about Bernie no matter what

I don't

He's not going up against Trump

Have a nice day

[HarthorneWingo]

I was talking about what I want. I was not commenting on who Bernie was. Stop

That's a great question. What DO you want? Just go down the list and tick them off for me. Healthcare, climate change, ecomonic inequality, immigration, marijuana, marijuana, bankruptcy, student debt, etc. You align with Bernie just like I do. lol

I guess you want to talk about Bernie no matter what

I don't

He's not going up against Trump

Have a nice day

I looks like you don't want to have a righteous conversation about the issues. I simply want to know what's important to you. And you turn that into "Have a nice day." C'mon, really?

[Clyde_Style]

That's a great question. What DO you want? Just go down the list and tick them off for me. Healthcare, climate change, ecomonic inequality, immigration, marijuana, marijuana, bankruptcy, student debt, etc. You align with Bernie just like I do. lol

I guess you want to talk about Bernie no matter what

I don't

He's not going up against Trump

Have a nice day

I looks like you don't want to have a righteous conversation about the issues. I simply want to know what's important to you. And you turn that into "Have a nice day." C'mon, really?

I'm really not that interested man.

We're standing on the edge of a cliff with a deluge bearing down on us. My goal is to turn back that tide and live to fight another day. I'm not interested in discussing the view from the edge of the cliff.

I'm a jew. I hate Nazis. And Nazis hate black and brown people. Bernie lost so I'm focused ONLY on beating them, then we can work out the details.

Of course, we want many of the same things which is why I don't want to waste time debating about how much better Bernie would or would not be better. I truly don't care, because he is not the nominee.

It is irrelevant unless you use his leverage now. You'd rather debate me online, but the constructive move on your part is to send a thoughtfully written message to his campaign thanking him for his effort and urging him to extract some promises from Democratic leadership while he still has some leverage left. That to me is a good use of your time. Everything else is a waste of breath IMO.

[Marty McFly]

Ok

Vilifying those who think pragmatically is a major reason why Bernie is heading home

EXACTLY

Pragmatically? In the midst of a coronavirus pandemic, an ecomonic collapse, and on the brink of climate catastrophe. That's something. In case you haven't noticed, this pandemic is Exhibit A which will accelerate our move to a M4A system. The failure of our healthcare system is on full display for all to see. And we will realize the repercussions of our shortsightedness.

UBIs are the all the rage now. The lack of a human safety net is on full display. But Bernie is not "pragmatic." That's so absurd. Clyde, I'm surprised since you know from experience about the benefits of a social democratic system.

nailed it. Pragmatism while there's the possibility of societal collapse. the galaxy brains on some of these people.

[Marty McFly]

I had no idea that the dad from 'Get Out' was a knicks fan.

[Clyde_Style]

I had no idea that the dad from 'Get Out' was a knicks fan.

You are going too far. You rage about justice yet you are quite cruel