OT: Panic Buying. When Will it End?

[gp2015]

I’m proposing someone to creat cloth masks for every healthy Canadian to prevent spread of the virus

How are you going to breathe through that?

[Courtside]

I’m proposing someone to creat cloth masks for every healthy Canadian to prevent spread of the virus

How are you going to breathe through that?

Some air goes through, some air goes around. The point of the mask is not really to protect the wearer, though there may a very small measure there. The point is absolutely to reduce the amount of contagion in the air, which reduces the amount of contagion that lands and lives on surfaces, and to reduce the amount of face touching a person does. All of these things are an important part of mitigating the spread, as you can see in ALL the Asian countries that have worked to contain it.

[gp2015]

I’m proposing someone to creat cloth masks for every healthy Canadian to prevent spread of the virus

How are you going to breathe through that?

Some air goes through, some air goes around. The point of the mask is not really to protect the wearer, though there may a very small measure there. The point is absolutely to reduce the amount of contagion in the air, which reduces the amount of contagion that lands and lives on surfaces, and to reduce the amount of face touching a person does. All of these things are an important part of mitigating the spread, as you can see in ALL the Asian countries that have worked to contain it.

The most important part of wearing a mask is that viral particles don't get in and viral particles don't get out. In order for that to happen, you need it to form a complete seal around your nose and mouth.

Using a piece of cloth won't give you a proper seal, defeating the whole purpose of the mask and even if it was able to, you would definitely have problems breathing through it. A regular cloth is not going to block the particles from getting in and out.

Those fashion cloth masks are not going to do a lot to protect you or others from getting sick.

[Raps in 4]

I’m proposing someone to creat cloth masks for every healthy Canadian to prevent spread of the virus

Put them up on Kijiji for $50 a pop.

[Raps in 4]

How are you going to breathe through that?

Some air goes through, some air goes around. The point of the mask is not really to protect the wearer, though there may a very small measure there. The point is absolutely to reduce the amount of contagion in the air, which reduces the amount of contagion that lands and lives on surfaces, and to reduce the amount of face touching a person does. All of these things are an important part of mitigating the spread, as you can see in ALL the Asian countries that have worked to contain it.

The most important part of wearing a mask is that viral particles don't get in and viral particles don't get out. In order for that to happen, you need it to form a complete seal around your nose and mouth.

Using a piece of cloth won't give you a proper seal, defeating the whole purpose of the mask and even if it was able to, you would definitely have problems breathing through it. A regular cloth is not going to block the particles from getting in and out.

Those fashion cloth masks are not going to do a lot to protect you or others from getting sick.

You don't need to keep all the particles out, just some of them. You don't get sick until you ingest enough viral load to overwhelm your immune system.

[Raps in 4]

I’m proposing someone to creat cloth masks for every healthy Canadian to prevent spread of the virus

How are you going to breathe through that?

Some air goes through, some air goes around. The point of the mask is not really to protect the wearer, though there may a very small measure there. The point is absolutely to reduce the amount of contagion in the air, which reduces the amount of contagion that lands and lives on surfaces, and to reduce the amount of face touching a person does. All of these things are an important part of mitigating the spread, as you can see in ALL the Asian countries that have worked to contain it.

Medical professionals in Asian countries overwhelmingly encourage people to wear masks (China has made it mandatory in high-risk areas). Yet doctors here advise you not to wear them. Something doesn't add up. Every nurse or doctor you see in a Canadian hospital is wearing a mask. Why are they wearing them if they don't work? Hell, any time you go to the ER with symptoms of a communicable disease, you have to put a mask on immediately. Why would masks work in an ER but not in a bus or an office?

I'm starting to believe the conspiracy theorists who suggest we are told not to wear masks so there is enough supply for hospitals and medical professionals. Supply is low since masks have a limited shelf life and are therefore not profitable to produce.

[seanbig]

How are you going to breathe through that?

Some air goes through, some air goes around. The point of the mask is not really to protect the wearer, though there may a very small measure there. The point is absolutely to reduce the amount of contagion in the air, which reduces the amount of contagion that lands and lives on surfaces, and to reduce the amount of face touching a person does. All of these things are an important part of mitigating the spread, as you can see in ALL the Asian countries that have worked to contain it.

The most important part of wearing a mask is that viral particles don't get in and viral particles don't get out. In order for that to happen, you need it to form a complete seal around your nose and mouth.

Using a piece of cloth won't give you a proper seal, defeating the whole purpose of the mask and even if it was able to, you would definitely have problems breathing through it. A regular cloth is not going to block the particles from getting in and out.

Those fashion cloth masks are not going to do a lot to protect you or others from getting sick.

Exactly studies show a cloth mask or even a scarf trap about 50-60% of pathogens

Surgical mask about 97% and n95 higher than that

If everybody dons a cloth mask in public you can reduce the risk in half- which is sort of like the idea of herd immunity the risk of you infecting someone else goes down by half and you flatten the curve

[Duffman100]

**** ing people hoarding sparkling lemon water. What a 1st world hoarding decision...

[Johnny Bball]

How are you going to breathe through that?

Some air goes through, some air goes around. The point of the mask is not really to protect the wearer, though there may a very small measure there. The point is absolutely to reduce the amount of contagion in the air, which reduces the amount of contagion that lands and lives on surfaces, and to reduce the amount of face touching a person does. All of these things are an important part of mitigating the spread, as you can see in ALL the Asian countries that have worked to contain it.

Medical professionals in Asian countries overwhelmingly encourage people to wear masks (China has made it mandatory in high-risk areas). Yet doctors here advise you not to wear them. Something doesn't add up. Every nurse or doctor you see in a Canadian hospital is wearing a mask. Why are they wearing them if they don't work? Hell, any time you go to the ER with symptoms of a communicable disease, you have to put a mask on immediately. Why would masks work in an ER but not in a bus or an office?

I'm starting to believe the conspiracy theorists who suggest we are told not to wear masks so there is enough supply for hospitals and medical professionals. Supply is low since masks have a limited shelf life and are therefore not profitable to produce.

They are sold out on the supplier level. They are made in China so if they aren't in a shipping container yet, they won't be available for a long time. They've even run out of the materials to make them. N95s, Respirators, disinfectant, filters, polyethylene.... all gone.

Not to mention some government bodies and firms pay a fee to 3M etc. to supply a certain amount on demand whenever they need them (after sars), so a good chunk of whatever we had in the supply chain were spoken for right away.

You're on your own. Besides, nobody knows how to fit them properly for the most part so they really aren't going to do what they are supposed to do, or work properly. That's not a conspiracy, just facts.

[Courtside]

Some air goes through, some air goes around. The point of the mask is not really to protect the wearer, though there may a very small measure there. The point is absolutely to reduce the amount of contagion in the air, which reduces the amount of contagion that lands and lives on surfaces, and to reduce the amount of face touching a person does. All of these things are an important part of mitigating the spread, as you can see in ALL the Asian countries that have worked to contain it.

Medical professionals in Asian countries overwhelmingly encourage people to wear masks (China has made it mandatory in high-risk areas). Yet doctors here advise you not to wear them. Something doesn't add up. Every nurse or doctor you see in a Canadian hospital is wearing a mask. Why are they wearing them if they don't work? Hell, any time you go to the ER with symptoms of a communicable disease, you have to put a mask on immediately. Why would masks work in an ER but not in a bus or an office?

I'm starting to believe the conspiracy theorists who suggest we are told not to wear masks so there is enough supply for hospitals and medical professionals. Supply is low since masks have a limited shelf life and are therefore not profitable to produce.

They are sold out on the supplier level. They are made in China so if they aren't in a shipping container yet, they won't be available for a long time. They've even run out of the materials to make them. N95s, Respirators, disinfectant, filters, polyethylene.... all gone.

Not to mention some government bodies and firms pay a fee to 3M etc. to supply a certain amount on demand whenever they need them (after sars), so a good chunk of whatever we had in the supply chain were spoken for right away.

You're on your own. Besides, nobody knows how to fit them properly for the most part so they really aren't going to do what they are supposed to do, or work properly. That's not a conspiracy, just facts.

I have 3000 on the way from China, and have already started testing means for a local made version as I have several tailors and sewing machines in the family, as well as some other mfg capability in my shopspace. Will be surgical type masks to start (sewing version) and the formed ones will have all the needed layers to be very near N95. I won't bother with the time and expense of getting N95 certified, but they won't be offered as medical or certified grade products anyways. I do have access to the correct spun polyesters and activated carbon filters to do these well, if I can make the process work for even modest quantities.

Someone has to start making them domestically in volume which I certainly won't have the capacity for - and for medical needs first of course - but any little bit of crowdsourced ingenuity I think will help lessen the strain on whatever supply does make it to market.

[6ixSideSniper]

Medical professionals in Asian countries overwhelmingly encourage people to wear masks (China has made it mandatory in high-risk areas). Yet doctors here advise you not to wear them. Something doesn't add up. Every nurse or doctor you see in a Canadian hospital is wearing a mask. Why are they wearing them if they don't work? Hell, any time you go to the ER with symptoms of a communicable disease, you have to put a mask on immediately. Why would masks work in an ER but not in a bus or an office?

I'm starting to believe the conspiracy theorists who suggest we are told not to wear masks so there is enough supply for hospitals and medical professionals. Supply is low since masks have a limited shelf life and are therefore not profitable to produce.

They are sold out on the supplier level. They are made in China so if they aren't in a shipping container yet, they won't be available for a long time. They've even run out of the materials to make them. N95s, Respirators, disinfectant, filters, polyethylene.... all gone.

Not to mention some government bodies and firms pay a fee to 3M etc. to supply a certain amount on demand whenever they need them (after sars), so a good chunk of whatever we had in the supply chain were spoken for right away.

You're on your own. Besides, nobody knows how to fit them properly for the most part so they really aren't going to do what they are supposed to do, or work properly. That's not a conspiracy, just facts.

I have 3000 on the way from China, and have already started testing means for a local made version as I have several tailors and sewing machines in the family, as well as some other mfg capability in my shopspace. Will be surgical type masks to start (sewing version) and the formed ones will have all the needed layers to be very near N95. I won't bother with the time and expense of getting N95 certified, but they won't be offered as medical or certified grade products anyways. I do have access to the correct spun polyesters and activated carbon filters to do these well, if I can make the process work for even modest quantities.

Someone has to start making them domestically in volume which I certainly won't have the capacity for - and for medical needs first of course - but any little bit of crowdsourced ingenuity I think will help lessen the strain on whatever supply does make it to market.

Everyone always asks "why dont we produce the masks here?" yet no one wants to make them. Kudos to you for taking on the iniative.

[Johnny Bball]

Medical professionals in Asian countries overwhelmingly encourage people to wear masks (China has made it mandatory in high-risk areas). Yet doctors here advise you not to wear them. Something doesn't add up. Every nurse or doctor you see in a Canadian hospital is wearing a mask. Why are they wearing them if they don't work? Hell, any time you go to the ER with symptoms of a communicable disease, you have to put a mask on immediately. Why would masks work in an ER but not in a bus or an office?

I'm starting to believe the conspiracy theorists who suggest we are told not to wear masks so there is enough supply for hospitals and medical professionals. Supply is low since masks have a limited shelf life and are therefore not profitable to produce.

They are sold out on the supplier level. They are made in China so if they aren't in a shipping container yet, they won't be available for a long time. They've even run out of the materials to make them. N95s, Respirators, disinfectant, filters, polyethylene.... all gone.

Not to mention some government bodies and firms pay a fee to 3M etc. to supply a certain amount on demand whenever they need them (after sars), so a good chunk of whatever we had in the supply chain were spoken for right away.

You're on your own. Besides, nobody knows how to fit them properly for the most part so they really aren't going to do what they are supposed to do, or work properly. That's not a conspiracy, just facts.

I have 3000 on the way from China, and have already started testing means for a local made version as I have several tailors and sewing machines in the family, as well as some other mfg capability in my shopspace. Will be surgical type masks to start (sewing version) and the formed ones will have all the needed layers to be very near N95. I won't bother with the time and expense of getting N95 certified, but they won't be offered as medical or certified grade products anyways. I do have access to the correct spun polyesters and activated carbon filters to do these well, if I can make the process work for even modest quantities.

Someone has to start making them domestically in volume which I certainly won't have the capacity for - and for medical needs first of course - but any little bit of crowdsourced ingenuity I think will help lessen the strain on whatever supply does make it to market.

That's good new for you. But most Chinese manufactures can't find the spun blown fabric for them, and are trying to get more lines in the plants built/active. But if you don't need the fabric to stop micron sized particles like asbestos, or airborne viruses, then you can it's surely not an issue.

Governments will eventually consider respiratory protection an essential item and get manufacturers to start building them here again. I have already heard talk on that. But that's for the next pandemic/epidemic. Maybe you will be ahead of the curve for CSA/NIOSH approved stuff if you have the chance.

By the way... I'm always interested when people look at times like these to expand they businesses and treat their people well. Sign of a good leader. Good on you man,

[Courtside]

They are sold out on the supplier level. They are made in China so if they aren't in a shipping container yet, they won't be available for a long time. They've even run out of the materials to make them. N95s, Respirators, disinfectant, filters, polyethylene.... all gone.

Not to mention some government bodies and firms pay a fee to 3M etc. to supply a certain amount on demand whenever they need them (after sars), so a good chunk of whatever we had in the supply chain were spoken for right away.

You're on your own. Besides, nobody knows how to fit them properly for the most part so they really aren't going to do what they are supposed to do, or work properly. That's not a conspiracy, just facts.

I have 3000 on the way from China, and have already started testing means for a local made version as I have several tailors and sewing machines in the family, as well as some other mfg capability in my shopspace. Will be surgical type masks to start (sewing version) and the formed ones will have all the needed layers to be very near N95. I won't bother with the time and expense of getting N95 certified, but they won't be offered as medical or certified grade products anyways. I do have access to the correct spun polyesters and activated carbon filters to do these well, if I can make the process work for even modest quantities.

Someone has to start making them domestically in volume which I certainly won't have the capacity for - and for medical needs first of course - but any little bit of crowdsourced ingenuity I think will help lessen the strain on whatever supply does make it to market.

That's good new for you. But most Chinese manufactures can't find the spun blown fabric for them, and are trying to get more lines in the plants built/active. But if you don't need the fabric to stop micron sized particles like asbestos, or airborne viruses, then you can it's surely not an issue.

Governments will eventually consider respiratory protection an essential item and get manufacturers to start building them here again. I have already heard talk on that. But that's for the next pandemic/epidemic. Maybe you will be ahead of the curve for CSA/NIOSH approved stuff if you have the chance.

By the way... I'm always interested when people look at times like these to expand they businesses and treat their people well. Sign of a good leader. Good on you man,

The government twisted arms and incentivized existing factories over there to switch over to PPE products, sanitizers, barricades, etc... One of my suppliers has a sister and mother who worked at a juice box factory who within days was switched over to producing consumer sized packs of 84 cleaner and other disinfectants. Their food grade lines couldn't handle this permanently, but through loans and promises from government, they did it anyways. That lasted about two weeks and while that was happening, they were adding machines and lines to start doing masks (also incentivized). Within days they were up and running and about 10 days later reached capacity of 200,000 masks a day.

The government buys as much as they will make, but they're allowed to sell a fixed amount domestically as well since the gov't orders are at pre-agreed prices with very modest margins. Many other factory types are stockpiled now for their staff and safety needs, so they are staring to be offered for export in smaller quantities. I couldn't order a container worth even if I had the money, because as you note there are major firms like 3M and Honeywell with gov't contracts and connections who have first dibs

Hundreds of companies have switched over like this in a matter of weeks, something completely impossible to pull off here. They apparently added 150 million pieces per day capacity above and beyond what was being made before. You're right, the material availability is difficult, primarily with the activayed layers needed for N95. The spun polys are available, but you basically have to buy by the tonne, which cuts out a lot of smaller players, who then have to buy from the bigger guys at a markup. There are stocks of materials here sitting and waiting to be used here in Canada and US, as they're used in other industries too. It's tricky to get the right combination as these are multi layer items, but possible if you are creative at sourcing. It's the machine set up that is a lot more time consuming and costly for proper volumes and medical grade products, but for simpler uses some short cuts can be taken to knock out a few hundred or maybe best case of 1000 a day.

As for your last paragraph.... thank you. My brain is sort of just wired to figure out opportunities and ideas, most that I never do anything about. The masks are not about getting credit or profiteering, as there is both a public need and down the road, possibly a financial need on my part (and family's part) to keep earning a living, paying the bills and eating. if things come together and I can make them available, I'll share here.

[kleatius_01]

So you're not going to bother getting N95 certified, but people should trust you because China. You're basically Jude Law's character from Contagion. Let's trust our medical professionals. Conspiracy BS is not helpful.

Anyway, a recent research study published in NEJM show the corona virus remaining aerosolized for up to 3 hours.
   https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?articleTools=true 

Surgical masks don't even prevent droplet spread infection, if this is airborne they're even more pointless.

[Johnny Bball]

So you're not going to bother getting N95 certified, but people should trust you because China. You're basically Jude Law's character from Contagion. Let's trust our medical professionals. Conspiracy BS is not helpful.

Anyway, a recent research study published in NEJM show the corona virus remaining aerosolized for up to 3 hours.
   https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?articleTools=true 

Surgical masks don't even prevent droplet spread infection, if this is airborne they're even more pointless.

It's not.

[Courtside]

So you're not going to bother getting N95 certified, but people should trust you because China. You're basically Jude Law's character from Contagion. Let's trust our medical professionals. Conspiracy BS is not helpful.

Anyway, a recent research study published in NEJM show the corona virus remaining aerosolized for up to 3 hours.
   https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMc2004973?articleTools=true 

Surgical masks don't even prevent droplet spread infection, if this is airborne they're even more pointless.

He was a conspiracy nut and quasi online journalist (blogger with a following) who was trying to make money on vaccine stocks. Kindly **** yourself in the ass for making the comparison between me and that character.

If you re-read my earlier post, you'll see that I am not suggesting these offer droplet protection for the wearer of the mask, nor will they be offered as medical grade products. The fact remains that masks DO help in terms of reducing contagion that enters the air, lands on surfaces, and adjusts havits in terms of reducing the amount of times people touch their face. If citizens need to go out to shop, to buy medicine, to deliver goods, to work, or any number of other scenarios when they exit their isolation, then any means to reduce the amount of *their* aerosol emission is a proactive way if reducing transmission.

There is a reason that masks are a key part of mitigation and containment measures in places that have access to them. You can bet that if there was an ample stock of supply for medical providers, that health agencies would be recommending their use among civilians as well.

[kleatius_01]

Ok, fair enough my Contagion comp was harsh. I read your earlier posts, and maybe you are motivated to help and not just jumping at a business opportunity. I just believe the epidemiologists I've listened to who say surgical masks aren't helpful in preventing spread.

[gp2015]

Some air goes through, some air goes around. The point of the mask is not really to protect the wearer, though there may a very small measure there. The point is absolutely to reduce the amount of contagion in the air, which reduces the amount of contagion that lands and lives on surfaces, and to reduce the amount of face touching a person does. All of these things are an important part of mitigating the spread, as you can see in ALL the Asian countries that have worked to contain it.

The most important part of wearing a mask is that viral particles don't get in and viral particles don't get out. In order for that to happen, you need it to form a complete seal around your nose and mouth.

Using a piece of cloth won't give you a proper seal, defeating the whole purpose of the mask and even if it was able to, you would definitely have problems breathing through it. A regular cloth is not going to block the particles from getting in and out.

Those fashion cloth masks are not going to do a lot to protect you or others from getting sick.

Exactly studies show a cloth mask or even a scarf trap about 50-60% of pathogens

Surgical mask about 97% and n95 higher than that

If everybody dons a cloth mask in public you can reduce the risk in half- which is sort of like the idea of herd immunity the risk of you infecting someone else goes down by half and you flatten the curve

That is going to be a tough sell with something as contagious as this is. Sure it's better than nothing but that's not going to be reassuring enough for most people.

That's like trying to sell condoms and stating that it will only block 50-60% of the sperm going through.

[Westside Gunn]

0 new cases in Wuhan. This is big

[Courtside]

Ok, fair enough my Contagion comp was harsh. I read your earlier posts, and maybe you are motivated to help and not just jumping at a business opportunity. I just believe the epidemiologists I've listened to who say surgical masks aren't helpful in preventing spread.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/hospital-makes-face-masks-covid-19-shields-from-office-supplies

Hospitals are literally making their own masks from materials purchased at hobby stores and Home Depot. If masks don't help, and second grade masks even less, why bother at all? There is an urgent need and if hospitals or first responders or nursing homes (or whoever) will accept my masks over using nothing, hand made masks or recycled ones, I would be honored to help in any meaningful way.