Semi-OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread III (Info. Post 1)

[Optimus_Steel]

I'm with the Dems here sadly. If the trillion dollar bailout is going to just basically keep employers afloat, while they cut their employee count down to almost nothing, we shouldn't fund them. It will end up basically being 100% stock buys and laying off everyone.

The money should be going to the people direct and now. Also they should freeze all mortgage, rent, utilities, car payment, etc immediately. They still don't get it, they are in denial.

[Ayt]

I'm with the Dems here sadly. If the trillion dollar bailout is going to just basically keep employers afloat, while they cut their employee count down to almost nothing, we shouldn't fund them. It will end up basically being 100% stock buys and laying off everyone.

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

[Nuntius]

We should have stopped/ prevented this virus when we had the 1st reported case in the USA to immediately get that person in quarantine and immediately shut down traveling, shutting down large events, gatherings, etc. So since the USA got too long to respond, Now the USA has to learn the HARD WAY.

With hindsight, that is very easy to say. On the flip side, then the complaint and hindsight seekers would be saying, "We shut down the country too early and ruined the economy, spread mass panic, and did so before 'professionals/experts' said to do so."

Really no win, no correct answer scenario for an unprecedented time in world history.

Exactly. It’s only after everyone sees how people are affected regardless that they can see why certain measures are probably better than others, but NOT before. Elected officials have so many competing interests in their ears—there was NO WAY any of them were going to put in the measures we see now back then because nobody would accept them without seeeing a clear and present grave danger before them. All leaders were in zugzwang at the time.

For many in the U.S., the closures of services once thought impossible a few weeks ago are now a reality, and people are talking with the help of foresight. At the time of the first cases, nobody would have thought a few months later that schools and gyms and bars would be closed down. Next time, people WILL be ready for immediate actions just like countries in the past with relatively little scientific knowledge compared to today better handled plague outbreaks.

This is true but it is important to note that this isn't the first pandemic of the 21st century. We have had others. It's just one of the few that managed to reach the West. I believe that we simply didn't expect this to spread over here. We thought that since other major epidemics like MERS and SARS didn't reach us that this wouldn't reach us either. Unfortunately, we are now paying for this hubris.

[Nuntius]

Read on Twitter

Reuters has slowly morphed into another propaganda outlet. South Korea learned lessons from SARS as did several Asian nations. US was not significantly impacted at the time. Its sad that people bash the US basically at all times now, but I have faith in leaders across the country will deliver.

There is nothing that prevented the US (or any other Western country, the issue is much bigger than the US) to learn from what happened in South Korea during the SARS outbreak.

[dhsilv2]

Stop it. You're have a preconception but not listening to Cuomo's communication. Almost every president ever elected was a lawyer cause they have a handle on regulations and laws.

You already have someone with industry experience in office and who can't communicate the information during this crisis was well as Cuomo is doing.

I'd say you're both wrong to a degree. For starters a guy who's experience is in reality tv and hotels is hardly "industry" by any normal measures. We absolutely do have too many lawyers in office and it very much hurts us when it comes time to listen to scientists and engineers and yes even real business professionals/bankers. We very much need a good blend of backgrounds and experiences in leadership at the government level. Nobody has the education to fully run a country without leaning heavily on experts but different back grounds help with when to listen and not listen or more importantly what advice they give to take.

And lets be blunt, every leader in the world right now is in over their head...this mess is unlike anything any of us have handled.

But just comparing both Gov. Cuomo's and Trump's pressers, I'd say Gov. Cuomo was more succinct and coherent. The Oval Office started with news on a prisoner release, really? Who gives a fk other than his immediate family and friends.
Meanwhile we have a pandemic on our hands, affecting billions of people on Earth.

Wrap your head around that for just one second, not minute, just one second.

The president is not known for his use of language. Perhaps that is an area a lawyer would be better at...or really just anyone. He's just not good at communicating nuance and details. he's much more about feelings and emotions which don't really work in this area.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I'm with the Dems here sadly. If the trillion dollar bailout is going to just basically keep employers afloat, while they cut their employee count down to almost nothing, we shouldn't fund them. It will end up basically being 100% stock buys and laying off everyone.

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

There are very specific emergencies where pure capitalism/free market may not be the correct approach. I'm not sure where I've said I'm that rigid of a capitalist? I think you need to look at each situation on a case by case basis. In an extreme, historic situation like this where we are literally staring a DEPRESSION right in the eyes, I don't believe the current system will get us through. We may need to get creative and use more of a hybrid system temporarily.

[Optimus_Steel]

I'd say you're both wrong to a degree. For starters a guy who's experience is in reality tv and hotels is hardly "industry" by any normal measures. We absolutely do have too many lawyers in office and it very much hurts us when it comes time to listen to scientists and engineers and yes even real business professionals/bankers. We very much need a good blend of backgrounds and experiences in leadership at the government level. Nobody has the education to fully run a country without leaning heavily on experts but different back grounds help with when to listen and not listen or more importantly what advice they give to take.

And lets be blunt, every leader in the world right now is in over their head...this mess is unlike anything any of us have handled.

But just comparing both Gov. Cuomo's and Trump's pressers, I'd say Gov. Cuomo was more succinct and coherent. The Oval Office started with news on a prisoner release, really? Who gives a fk other than his immediate family and friends.
Meanwhile we have a pandemic on our hands, affecting billions of people on Earth.

Wrap your head around that for just one second, not minute, just one second.

The president is not known for his use of language. Perhaps that is an area a lawyer would be better at...or really just anyone. He's just not good at communicating nuance and details. he's much more about feelings and emotions which don't really work in this area.

Feelings and emotions don't send checks or freeze mortgage payments, or coordinate delivery of medical supplies.

[OkcSinceSGA]

I'm with the Dems here sadly. If the trillion dollar bailout is going to just basically keep employers afloat, while they cut their employee count down to almost nothing, we shouldn't fund them. It will end up basically being 100% stock buys and laying off everyone.

The money should be going to the people direct and now. Also they should freeze all mortgage, rent, utilities, car payment, etc immediately. They still don't get it, they are in denial.

Yep. I saw the mortgage protection from HUD which is great. Yet a majority of American's rent homes/apartments. What's gonna protect us from getting evicted? Also car companies are releasing 6 month protection if you buy a new one now... but people like me who bought 6 months ago are ****.

[Pharmcat]

I'm with the Dems here sadly. If the trillion dollar bailout is going to just basically keep employers afloat, while they cut their employee count down to almost nothing, we shouldn't fund them. It will end up basically being 100% stock buys and laying off everyone.

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

Best post ever sums it up perfectly
Why should corporations get bailout when they were buying back stocks like crazy ? They should sell stocks or turn to their investors for money

[madmaxmedia]

Read on Twitter

Reuters has slowly morphed into another propaganda outlet. South Korea learned lessons from SARS as did several Asian nations. US was not significantly impacted at the time. Its sad that people bash the US basically at all times now, but I have faith in leaders across the country will deliver.

To be fair, the article does mention this:

South Korea’s rapid response to the new coronavirus resulted from scars of the past.

In the aftermath of the 2015 outbreak of MERS, short for the Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, critics slammed then-President Park Geun-hye and her administration for a slow response and a lack of transparency. Public confidence waned in Park, who was impeached in 2017 following an unrelated corruption scandal.

The country had 186 MERS cases, more than anywhere outside the Middle East, including 38 deaths.

“We can’t ever forget the incident. It is engraved in our mind,” the Korean CDC’s Lee Sang-won said. “We were hurt so much, and we felt remorseful.”

[ItsDanger]

Heard that GM & Ford will work with suppliers to potentially produce ventilators during their upcoming shutdown.

[Optimus_Steel]

Heard that GM & Ford will work with suppliers to potentially produce ventilators during their upcoming shutdown.

They have to, we have to mobilize industry like it's World War 2 again.

[dhsilv2]

But just comparing both Gov. Cuomo's and Trump's pressers, I'd say Gov. Cuomo was more succinct and coherent. The Oval Office started with news on a prisoner release, really? Who gives a fk other than his immediate family and friends.
Meanwhile we have a pandemic on our hands, affecting billions of people on Earth.

Wrap your head around that for just one second, not minute, just one second.

The president is not known for his use of language. Perhaps that is an area a lawyer would be better at...or really just anyone. He's just not good at communicating nuance and details. he's much more about feelings and emotions which don't really work in this area.

Feelings and emotions don't send checks or freeze mortgage payments, or coordinate delivery of medical supplies.

Neither do articulate speeches. Congress writing bills that the president signs do those things. Hopefully, the groups work together, have smart people make recommendations that are best for the country, and they have smart people write the legislation to make sure it is accurate. Once these hundreds if not thousands of people quickly act, hopefully things are better for us.

But make no mistake, what you're discussing is the results from the work of a great many people, not an individual.

[Courtside]

We need some analysis of why Beijing, Shanghai, etc were not impacted significantly with virus cases. To me, that is shocking given the evidence. The spread should have occurred before Wuhan was quarantined. China just closed Wuhan int'l airport Jan. 23, when cases are about 1,000 and deaths 20? Their stats are BS and its likely this virus had spread all over before that date. The lag you see in deaths is due to the carriers not infecting the vulnerable until later on (vacation/work trip duration, not interacting with them immediately).

Dude, this information is out there if you care to actually absorb the information given to you. I have posted about this in other threads where you posted and read (Raps board).

The fact is that the rest of China also acted very quickly and swiftly.

Countrywide self quarantine and disinfection was implemented. Masks were mandatory for anyone outside. Your temperature was taken anywhere you went and centrally tracked. If you had a fever, they picked you up and took you to a fever clinic - not home or hospital where you could infect others - but to a location where they could give you further testing. Anyone who tested for the illness or even strong symptoms would have led them to alert others at the locations where they had been (which is what the tracking is for) or so they could contain spread in the case of a clear COVID test.

Here is Beijing, one of the cities you specifically asked about... note the Feb 17 post date, over a month ago.

Watch on YouTube

And here is the other, posted Feb 7 in Shanghai:

Watch on YouTube

This is the extreme that China went to for containment. These things will not happen here, which is why it absolutely cannot be expected that China's experience with the virus would be applicable or replicated here.

[Optimus_Steel]

I'm with the Dems here sadly. If the trillion dollar bailout is going to just basically keep employers afloat, while they cut their employee count down to almost nothing, we shouldn't fund them. It will end up basically being 100% stock buys and laying off everyone.

The money should be going to the people direct and now. Also they should freeze all mortgage, rent, utilities, car payment, etc immediately. They still don't get it, they are in denial.

Yep. I saw the mortgage protection from HUD which is great. Yet a majority of American's rent homes/apartments. What's gonna protect us from getting evicted? Also car companies are releasing 6 month protection if you buy a new one now... but people like me who bought 6 months ago are ****.

Yup my understanding, the HUD only controls a fraction of mortgages. The rest are in private hands...so that would be useless for them. The half measure are not doing a whole lot, they have to act swiftly and fully, all the way, not on the edges like they are now.

[madmaxmedia]

South Korea’s rapid response to the new coronavirus resulted from scars of the past.

In the aftermath of the 2015 outbreak of MERS, short for the Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, critics slammed then-President Park Geun-hye and her administration for a slow response and a lack of transparency. Public confidence waned in Park, who was impeached in 2017 following an unrelated corruption scandal.

The country had 186 MERS cases, more than anywhere outside the Middle East, including 38 deaths.

“We can’t ever forget the incident. It is engraved in our mind,” the Korean CDC’s Lee Sang-won said. “We were hurt so much, and we felt remorseful.”

Having a (relatively) small outbreak ironically serves to help a country develop an 'immune response' against greater threats later it seems. Maybe had there also been a small MERS outbreak in the USA we would not have dismantled our pandemic response team in 2018 (this is not a comment about Trump one way or the other, just the overall picture.)

[DingleJerry]

But just comparing both Gov. Cuomo's and Trump's pressers, I'd say Gov. Cuomo was more succinct and coherent. The Oval Office started with news on a prisoner release, really? Who gives a fk other than his immediate family and friends.
Meanwhile we have a pandemic on our hands, affecting billions of people on Earth.

Wrap your head around that for just one second, not minute, just one second.

The president is not known for his use of language. Perhaps that is an area a lawyer would be better at...or really just anyone. He's just not good at communicating nuance and details. he's much more about feelings and emotions which don't really work in this area.

Feelings and emotions don't send checks or freeze mortgage payments, or coordinate delivery of medical supplies.

Yup,. but it does win elections. So that's why we're here. Overall the country really has to overhaul the elections process too, but primarily that comes down with the people being obsessed with emotional/religious/racial type stuff instead of logistics of operating a government, especially one not on a trillions per year deficit.

[Optimus_Steel]

The president is not known for his use of language. Perhaps that is an area a lawyer would be better at...or really just anyone. He's just not good at communicating nuance and details. he's much more about feelings and emotions which don't really work in this area.

Feelings and emotions don't send checks or freeze mortgage payments, or coordinate delivery of medical supplies.

Neither do articulate speeches. Congress writing bills that the president signs do those things. Hopefully, the groups work together, have smart people make recommendations that are best for the country, and they have smart people write the legislation to make sure it is accurate. Once these hundreds of not thousands of people quickly act, hopefully things are better for us.

But make no mistake, what you're discussing is the results from the work of a great many people, not an individual.

Trust me I'm aware that congress is dragging their feet and only offering half way measures that are far short of adequate. They are also in denial. Gotta protect the donors....

[madmaxmedia]

We need some analysis of why Beijing, Shanghai, etc were not impacted significantly with virus cases. To me, that is shocking given the evidence. The spread should have occurred before Wuhan was quarantined. China just closed Wuhan int'l airport Jan. 23, when cases are about 1,000 and deaths 20? Their stats are BS and its likely this virus had spread all over before that date. The lag you see in deaths is due to the carriers not infecting the vulnerable until later on (vacation/work trip duration, not interacting with them immediately).

Dude, this information is out there if you care to look for it.

The fact is that the rest of China also acted very quickly and swiftly.

Countrywide self quarantine and disinfection was implemented. Masks were mandatory for anyone outside. Your temperature was taken anywhere you went and centrally tracked. If you had a fever, they picked you up and took you to a fever clinic - not home or hospital where you could infect others - but to a location where they could give you further testing. Anyone who tested for the illness or even strong symptoms would have led them to alert others at the locations where they had been (which is what the tracking is for) or so they could contain spread in the case of a clear COVID test.

Here is Beijing, one of the cities you specifically asked about... note the Feb 17 post date, over a month ago.

Watch on YouTube

And here is the other, posted Feb 7 in Shanghai:

Watch on YouTube

This is the extreme that China went to for containment. These things will not happen here, which is why it absolutely cannot be expected that China's experience with the virus would be applicable or replicated here.

I would say in the early stages China was in greater denial than that 21-year old partying in Florida, and trying much harder to suppress spread of information about the virus, than the virus itself. But when they finally did come around, they locked things down pretty quick.

[Ayt]

With hindsight, that is very easy to say. On the flip side, then the complaint and hindsight seekers would be saying, "We shut down the country too early and ruined the economy, spread mass panic, and did so before 'professionals/experts' said to do so."

Really no win, no correct answer scenario for an unprecedented time in world history.

Exactly. It’s only after everyone sees how people are affected regardless that they can see why certain measures are probably better than others, but NOT before. Elected officials have so many competing interests in their ears—there was NO WAY any of them were going to put in the measures we see now back then because nobody would accept them without seeeing a clear and present grave danger before them. All leaders were in zugzwang at the time.

For many in the U.S., the closures of services once thought impossible a few weeks ago are now a reality, and people are talking with the help of foresight. At the time of the first cases, nobody would have thought a few months later that schools and gyms and bars would be closed down. Next time, people WILL be ready for immediate actions just like countries in the past with relatively little scientific knowledge compared to today better handled plague outbreaks.

This is true but it is important to note that this isn't the first pandemic of the 21st century. We have had others. It's just one of the few that managed to reach the West. I believe that we simply didn't expect this to spread over here. We thought that since other major epidemics like MERS and SARS didn't reach us that this wouldn't reach us either. Unfortunately, we are now paying for this hubris.

The intelligence community has been warning the government for years.

We were warned in 2019 of the grave hazards of a new influenza pandemic by the U.S. intelligence community in its annual “worldwide threat assessment.” They had also cautioned us in 2018. And in 2017. And in 2016. And in 2015. And in 2014. And in 2013, when intelligence officials pleaded, “This is not a hypothetical threat. History is replete with examples of pathogens sweeping populations that lack immunity, causing political and economic upheaval.” (The 2020 worldwide threat assessment, which reportedly yet again flagged America’s vulnerability to a flu pandemic, has been postponed without explanation.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/03/pandemic-coronavirus-united-states-trump-cdc/608215/