OT: Panic Buying. When Will it End?

[CantStopTheRock]

Wearing masks in China? Oh wait...

If you are healthy and a mask helps you out 5% great. But if you then touch your face more often it could make it worse. Everyone wants a mask but no one wants goggles that you can easily go out and buy...

It is more and more common to wear masks in China yet the flu cases have increased 50% each year from 2015-2018. They had more deaths January 2019 than all of the year prior.

Those countries are doing well because they are testing more people.

You're choosing an outlier which I specifically didn't mention. It's the origin of outbreak which was also ignored for 3 months before their government did anything. And the ones I mentioned aren't doing well purely because of testing, it's because they're actually enforcing quarantine.

Sorry i meant to add that the other countries are doing more than just testing (and wearing masks for that matter).

You are trying to tell me how well a mask prevents a virus from spreading. I pointed out a country that is wearing more and more masks each year yet there flu infection rate is going up 50% each year. I am not even talking about the outbreak, how is that the outlier? the data is from 2015 to Jan 2019.

South Korea also has a high % of infected and overall.

I never really argued against them helping if worn correctly and by people that are sick. From what I have seen in public, the people wearing them are causing more harm than good. It would be a waste of supplies to give everyone a mask especially since some people would be wearing it wrong and making it worse, or they simply are not doing basic things already that are easy to do (social distancing, washing hands, stop touching face, etc.).

People showing signs should wear them or stay home (like any flu season). If you have a cough or sneezing, you should wear them. If you are seemingly fine (like the vast majority) we shouldnt be using them because of the supply we have.

[Raps in 4]

Yeah but that is it going straight through the material. If the material isn't fitted correctly it can still get sucked through gaps and also leads to people touching their face more.

It doesn't matter. Nobody is claiming masks provide 100% protection. They simply reduce spread, and that's all they need to do.

Your argument that some people might touch their faces more with masks on isn't relevant since some people won't touch their faces more (a number that would increase if the government released a PSA on mask use). Again, masks aren't designed to offer 100% protection to 100% of the population. They are simply meant to reduce spread.

It doesn't matter?

If it reduces spread by a certain amount but then most people touch their face more, therefore negating the benefit of the mask and actually make it worse, how is that good? How does that reduce spread?

If you are sick, it helps stop the spread. If you are not it is negligible (sometimes worse) and supplies should be going towards health care workers. the vast majority do not have the virus so a mask is not going to do much so to risk our limited supply at this point is not very smart. Sure if you are coughing and sneezing you should have one to prevent spreading.

I see people constantly doing things that are putting them and others at risk that do not affect valuable supplies but they continue to risk it

You're assuming that most people would touch their faces. There is nothing to suggest that, especially if people are instructed on how to use the masks.

[TheDunc]

It doesn't matter. Nobody is claiming masks provide 100% protection. They simply reduce spread, and that's all they need to do.

Your argument that some people might touch their faces more with masks on isn't relevant since some people won't touch their faces more (a number that would increase if the government released a PSA on mask use). Again, masks aren't designed to offer 100% protection to 100% of the population. They are simply meant to reduce spread.

It doesn't matter?

If it reduces spread by a certain amount but then most people touch their face more, therefore negating the benefit of the mask and actually make it worse, how is that good? How does that reduce spread?

If you are sick, it helps stop the spread. If you are not it is negligible (sometimes worse) and supplies should be going towards health care workers. the vast majority do not have the virus so a mask is not going to do much so to risk our limited supply at this point is not very smart. Sure if you are coughing and sneezing you should have one to prevent spreading.

I see people constantly doing things that are putting them and others at risk that do not affect valuable supplies but they continue to risk it

You're assuming that most people would touch their faces. There is nothing to suggest that, especially if people are instructed on how to use the masks.

Humans in general touch their face on average 100 times a day, lets just say with the pandemic going on people reduce that by 50% that's still 50 times a day and that's with no mask. Ive worked with masks at work before and you definitely touch your face more with a mask on because you're always adjusting it. Not sure what's so hard to understand about this theory. Yes a mask is useful when it comes to protecting yourself from a virus but how useful it is can really be debated. If its 10% better then maybe its better we keep masks for the people who really need it.

[CantStopTheRock]

It doesn't matter. Nobody is claiming masks provide 100% protection. They simply reduce spread, and that's all they need to do.

Your argument that some people might touch their faces more with masks on isn't relevant since some people won't touch their faces more (a number that would increase if the government released a PSA on mask use). Again, masks aren't designed to offer 100% protection to 100% of the population. They are simply meant to reduce spread.

It doesn't matter?

If it reduces spread by a certain amount but then most people touch their face more, therefore negating the benefit of the mask and actually make it worse, how is that good? How does that reduce spread?

If you are sick, it helps stop the spread. If you are not it is negligible (sometimes worse) and supplies should be going towards health care workers. the vast majority do not have the virus so a mask is not going to do much so to risk our limited supply at this point is not very smart. Sure if you are coughing and sneezing you should have one to prevent spreading.

I see people constantly doing things that are putting them and others at risk that do not affect valuable supplies but they continue to risk it

You're assuming that most people would touch their faces. There is nothing to suggest that, especially if people are instructed on how to use the masks.

You are assuming people don't when I have seen more people first hand use them incorrectly.

From the video posted earlier by someone suggesting everyone should have a mask like in Asia

MacIntyre notes that cloth masks — which people wash and reuse — are also common in Asian countries. She says there's no evidence to show they have any benefit, and her research suggests they "may actually be harmful," because infrequent washing and moisture retention can make cloth masks a breeding ground for pathogens.

and

"Surgical masks are just a physical barrier that will protect you against "a visible splash or spray of fluid or large droplets," explains Raina MacIntyre, an infectious disease researcher and professor of global biosecurity at the University of New South Wales in Sydney who has studied the efficacy of face masks. These masks fit loosely on the face around the edges, so they don't completely keep out germs, and small airborne particles can still get through."

"Clarence Tam, a public health researcher at the National University of Singapore, notes that because wearing masks can be uncomfortable, "the discomfort might make you actually touch your face more." This could contaminate your fingers with any germs that might have attached themselves to the outside of the mask."

So public health researches say people are likely to touch there face more. I have seen people touch their face more in public and for nearly two decades at work. I have both surgical masks and N95 masks here. Most people find them uncomfortable and keep touching them and their face.

"In some Asian countries, such as Japan and China, it's not uncommon to see people wearing surgical masks in public to protect against pathogens and pollution. But those masks don't help much in the context of a virus, Schaffner said. "They're not designed to keep out viral particles, and they're not nearly as tightly fitted around your nose and cheeks" as an N95 respirator, he said."

WHO also

If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection.
Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing.
Masks are effective only when used in combination with frequent hand-cleaning with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.
If you wear a mask, then you must know how to use it and dispose of it properly

[Raps in 4]

It doesn't matter?

If it reduces spread by a certain amount but then most people touch their face more, therefore negating the benefit of the mask and actually make it worse, how is that good? How does that reduce spread?

If you are sick, it helps stop the spread. If you are not it is negligible (sometimes worse) and supplies should be going towards health care workers. the vast majority do not have the virus so a mask is not going to do much so to risk our limited supply at this point is not very smart. Sure if you are coughing and sneezing you should have one to prevent spreading.

I see people constantly doing things that are putting them and others at risk that do not affect valuable supplies but they continue to risk it

You're assuming that most people would touch their faces. There is nothing to suggest that, especially if people are instructed on how to use the masks.

Humans in general touch their face on average 100 times a day, lets just say with the pandemic going on people reduce that by 50% that's still 50 times a day and that's with no mask. Ive worked with masks at work before and you definitely touch your face more with a mask on because you're always adjusting it. Not sure what's so hard to understand about this theory. Yes a mask is useful when it comes to protecting yourself from a virus but how useful it is can really be debated. If its 10% better then maybe its better we keep masks for the people who really need it.

It's not about who gets the masks. Obviously medical professionals should get them first. It's about doing everything possible to stop the spread of the virus in order to relieve pressure on the healthcare system. Having enough masks for everyone would help that.

[CantStopTheRock]

You're assuming that most people would touch their faces. There is nothing to suggest that, especially if people are instructed on how to use the masks.

Humans in general touch their face on average 100 times a day, lets just say with the pandemic going on people reduce that by 50% that's still 50 times a day and that's with no mask. Ive worked with masks at work before and you definitely touch your face more with a mask on because you're always adjusting it. Not sure what's so hard to understand about this theory. Yes a mask is useful when it comes to protecting yourself from a virus but how useful it is can really be debated. If its 10% better then maybe its better we keep masks for the people who really need it.

It's not about who gets the masks. Obviously medical professionals should get them first. It's about doing everything possible to stop the spread of the virus in order to relieve pressure on the healthcare system. Having enough masks for everyone would help that.

People staying at home unless they have to leave will do that too. Same with people practicing good hygiene (shouldn't need a Pandemic for that).

The problem is you are trying to look at this as maxing out the % to combat this thing, which does not work in our current reality. I would agree with you if there was an infinite amount of masks and there was a campaign to show people how to wear one it would be better than currently. But there are so many other things that people are supposed to be doing and they are not, that bringing something that is still of trivial benefit into the fold doesn't make much sense especially with our current supply.

It is funny you bring up strain on the healthcare system. There are patients that are LYING about being out of country and seeing doctors that are putting everyone at risk. This has already happened to my wife. So when people say "people aren't that dumb they know how to put on a mask" well there is a counter example.

[Johnny Bball]

Give people masks, and you know too many of them will think they are invincible. And then it's worse.

[Clay Davis]

Just don't touch your face. It's not that hard. Do you scratch your ass everytime the urge arises?

I'm happy with my N95. Thanks to price-gouging, I have to disinfect it with rubbing alcohol after every use, but I'm happy to do so

[Raps in 4]

Humans in general touch their face on average 100 times a day, lets just say with the pandemic going on people reduce that by 50% that's still 50 times a day and that's with no mask. Ive worked with masks at work before and you definitely touch your face more with a mask on because you're always adjusting it. Not sure what's so hard to understand about this theory. Yes a mask is useful when it comes to protecting yourself from a virus but how useful it is can really be debated. If its 10% better then maybe its better we keep masks for the people who really need it.

It's not about who gets the masks. Obviously medical professionals should get them first. It's about doing everything possible to stop the spread of the virus in order to relieve pressure on the healthcare system. Having enough masks for everyone would help that.

People staying at home unless they have to leave will do that too. Same with people practicing good hygiene (shouldn't need a Pandemic for that).

The problem is you are trying to look at this as maxing out the % to combat this thing, which does not work in our current reality. I would agree with you if there was an infinite amount of masks and there was a campaign to show people how to wear one it would be better than currently. But there are so many other things that people are supposed to be doing and they are not, that bringing something that is still of trivial benefit into the fold doesn't make much sense especially with our current supply.

It is funny you bring up strain on the healthcare system. There are patients that are LYING about being out of country and seeing doctors that are putting everyone at risk. This has already happened to my wife. So when people say "people aren't that dumb they know how to put on a mask" well there is a counter example.

Just because there are a few dumb people in a population doesn't mean you give up all efforts to try and solve the problem. It's a numbers game at the end of the day. Any reduction in the rate of infection is helpful.

You're right that there is nothing we can do in our current reality, but that's because we didn't prepare. Rather than sweep it under the rug, we should take this is a learning opportunity to prepare better for the next outbreak.

[Indeed]

Wearing masks in China? Oh wait...

If you are healthy and a mask helps you out 5% great. But if you then touch your face more often it could make it worse. Everyone wants a mask but no one wants goggles that you can easily go out and buy...

It is more and more common to wear masks in China yet the flu cases have increased 50% each year from 2015-2018. They had more deaths January 2019 than all of the year prior.

Those countries are doing well because they are testing more people.

You're choosing an outlier which I specifically didn't mention. It's the origin of outbreak which was also ignored for 3 months before their government did anything. And the ones I mentioned aren't doing well purely because of testing, it's because they're actually enforcing quarantine.

Sorry i meant to add that the other countries are doing more than just testing (and wearing masks for that matter).

You are trying to tell me how well a mask prevents a virus from spreading. I pointed out a country that is wearing more and more masks each year yet there flu infection rate is going up 50% each year. I am not even talking about the outbreak, how is that the outlier? the data is from 2015 to Jan 2019.

South Korea also has a high % of infected and overall.

I never really argued against them helping if worn correctly and by people that are sick. From what I have seen in public, the people wearing them are causing more harm than good. It would be a waste of supplies to give everyone a mask especially since some people would be wearing it wrong and making it worse, or they simply are not doing basic things already that are easy to do (social distancing, washing hands, stop touching face, etc.).

People showing signs should wear them or stay home (like any flu season). If you have a cough or sneezing, you should wear them. If you are seemingly fine (like the vast majority) we shouldnt be using them because of the supply we have.

It is a naive thought on those who are sick would wear a mask or stay home. What turned out more often is that healthy people who wants to prevent being sick are the one who wears mask. Those who are already sick would be more careless than those who are not.

It is more a culture thing, when I was in Hong Kong, everyone (not sick) wear a mask is the norm.
https://youtu.be/gLRQGuPtKHs?t=237

[CantStopTheRock]

You're choosing an outlier which I specifically didn't mention. It's the origin of outbreak which was also ignored for 3 months before their government did anything. And the ones I mentioned aren't doing well purely because of testing, it's because they're actually enforcing quarantine.

Sorry i meant to add that the other countries are doing more than just testing (and wearing masks for that matter).

You are trying to tell me how well a mask prevents a virus from spreading. I pointed out a country that is wearing more and more masks each year yet there flu infection rate is going up 50% each year. I am not even talking about the outbreak, how is that the outlier? the data is from 2015 to Jan 2019.

South Korea also has a high % of infected and overall.

I never really argued against them helping if worn correctly and by people that are sick. From what I have seen in public, the people wearing them are causing more harm than good. It would be a waste of supplies to give everyone a mask especially since some people would be wearing it wrong and making it worse, or they simply are not doing basic things already that are easy to do (social distancing, washing hands, stop touching face, etc.).

People showing signs should wear them or stay home (like any flu season). If you have a cough or sneezing, you should wear them. If you are seemingly fine (like the vast majority) we shouldnt be using them because of the supply we have.

It is a naive thought on those who are sick would wear a mask or stay home. What turned out more often is that healthy people who wants to prevent being sick are the one who wears mask. Those who are already sick would be more careless than those who are not.

It is more a culture thing, when I was in Hong Kong, everyone (not sick) wear a mask is the norm.
https://youtu.be/gLRQGuPtKHs?t=237

A naive thought? That is what they are supposed to be doing according to medical researchers, CDC and WHO.

What is naive thought, is suggesting those masks in the video are doing anything when I just quoted a medical researcher suggesting the opposite and you suggesting the exact opposite of CDC and WHO

[CantStopTheRock]

It's not about who gets the masks. Obviously medical professionals should get them first. It's about doing everything possible to stop the spread of the virus in order to relieve pressure on the healthcare system. Having enough masks for everyone would help that.

People staying at home unless they have to leave will do that too. Same with people practicing good hygiene (shouldn't need a Pandemic for that).

The problem is you are trying to look at this as maxing out the % to combat this thing, which does not work in our current reality. I would agree with you if there was an infinite amount of masks and there was a campaign to show people how to wear one it would be better than currently. But there are so many other things that people are supposed to be doing and they are not, that bringing something that is still of trivial benefit into the fold doesn't make much sense especially with our current supply.

It is funny you bring up strain on the healthcare system. There are patients that are LYING about being out of country and seeing doctors that are putting everyone at risk. This has already happened to my wife. So when people say "people aren't that dumb they know how to put on a mask" well there is a counter example.

Just because there are a few dumb people in a population doesn't mean you give up all efforts to try and solve the problem. It's a numbers game at the end of the day. Any reduction in the rate of infection is helpful.

You're right that there is nothing we can do in our current reality, but that's because we didn't prepare. Rather than sweep it under the rug, we should take this is a learning opportunity to prepare better for the next outbreak.

It is more than a few idiots and unfortunately those idiots are here and the infinite amount of masks are not.

The best thing to do is to stay home if you are coughing/sneezing, this will minimize the need for a mask and reduce the risk more than anything else along with washing hands and not touching your face.

What kills me is all these people clamoring for a mask are not even discussing eye protection. Where is everyone with googles on? No where to be found but you can go buy them if you want to minimally reduce your risk. But everyone wants to act like there is a CDC/WHO conspiracy about masks.

I agree we were not prepared (no one was). Bill Gates had a Ted talk about this and because we were lucky nothing was done, hopefully this wakes everyone up

[Courtside]

Really good piece on masks & respirators, as well as some other good scientific info about virus size, surface spread, etc...

https://fastlifehacks.com/n95-vs-ffp/ (many sources of info aggregated for the article and linked to at bottom)

In two studies done, comparing surgical masks to respirator (N95 style masks), they found that both offered a similar amount of protection to the wearer in terms of influenza protection. We know COVID is not the flu, but we do know that they are comparable in terms of particle size. Ultimately surgical masks do not and are not intended to protect the wearer like the other respirators are, but they do offer more protection than wearing nothing, while also doing their intended work of protecting others from the wearer, and reducing touching once the user gets used to them.

The images below relate only to the protection level of the mask for the wearer, which we know is not even the prime purpose for them. If they do more to mitigate spread from the wearer while also doing the below for the wearer, then of course they are beneficial. The problem is that there is a near zero availability right now and medical needs should come first for products made by the qualified companies. If we can work to increase the availability of the masks however, especially the surgical ones that direct-contact doctors should not use in treating COVID patients, then eventually they can be part of a multi-tool mitigation strategy.

[Indeed]

Sorry i meant to add that the other countries are doing more than just testing (and wearing masks for that matter).

You are trying to tell me how well a mask prevents a virus from spreading. I pointed out a country that is wearing more and more masks each year yet there flu infection rate is going up 50% each year. I am not even talking about the outbreak, how is that the outlier? the data is from 2015 to Jan 2019.

South Korea also has a high % of infected and overall.

I never really argued against them helping if worn correctly and by people that are sick. From what I have seen in public, the people wearing them are causing more harm than good. It would be a waste of supplies to give everyone a mask especially since some people would be wearing it wrong and making it worse, or they simply are not doing basic things already that are easy to do (social distancing, washing hands, stop touching face, etc.).

People showing signs should wear them or stay home (like any flu season). If you have a cough or sneezing, you should wear them. If you are seemingly fine (like the vast majority) we shouldnt be using them because of the supply we have.

It is a naive thought on those who are sick would wear a mask or stay home. What turned out more often is that healthy people who wants to prevent being sick are the one who wears mask. Those who are already sick would be more careless than those who are not.

It is more a culture thing, when I was in Hong Kong, everyone (not sick) wear a mask is the norm.
https://youtu.be/gLRQGuPtKHs?t=237

A naive thought? That is what they are supposed to be doing according to medical researchers, CDC and WHO.

What is naive thought, is suggesting those masks in the video are doing anything when I just quoted a medical researcher suggesting the opposite and you suggesting the exact opposite of CDC and WHO

Naive thought is that you believe in people who are "supposed" to be doing.
And CDC says if they cannot wear mask, they need to have bandanas, and being so wrong from the medical professionals do not agree those bandanas are anything effective. You sure you can believe in those CDC? You need N95 or above mask (surgical ones) to filter those virus, people from the medical knows that, and the reason of shortage, which is why medical union disagreed on it, clearly CDC has their agenda when cannot supply enough for the frontline.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/face-mask-shortage-prompts-cdc-to-loosen-coronavirus-guidance/ar-BB110OpU

[Indeed]

Thank you for educating people.

[treerollins]

Thank you for educating people.

Educating us on how to reduce exposure to particulate air pollution?

[raptorstime]

food basics was empty today, all the food was there too.

[Raps in 4]

food basics was empty today, all the food was there too.

Was there toilet paper though?

[CantStopTheRock]

It is a naive thought on those who are sick would wear a mask or stay home. What turned out more often is that healthy people who wants to prevent being sick are the one who wears mask. Those who are already sick would be more careless than those who are not.

It is more a culture thing, when I was in Hong Kong, everyone (not sick) wear a mask is the norm.
https://youtu.be/gLRQGuPtKHs?t=237

A naive thought? That is what they are supposed to be doing according to medical researchers, CDC and WHO.

What is naive thought, is suggesting those masks in the video are doing anything when I just quoted a medical researcher suggesting the opposite and you suggesting the exact opposite of CDC and WHO

Naive thought is that you believe in people who are "supposed" to be doing.
And CDC says if they cannot wear mask, they need to have bandanas, and being so wrong from the medical professionals do not agree those bandanas are anything effective. You sure you can believe in those CDC? You need N95 or above mask (surgical ones) to filter those virus, people from the medical knows that, and the reason of shortage, which is why medical union disagreed on it, clearly CDC has their agenda when cannot supply enough for the frontline.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/face-mask-shortage-prompts-cdc-to-loosen-coronavirus-guidance/ar-BB110OpU

Really? So these people are not going to do what they are “supposed” to do regards to CDC/WHO recommendations, but then magically they do exactly as directed in regards to wearing masks and dispose of them properly? Great argument. If they are not able to just do nothing, not touch their face and wash their hands then they are also unlikely to wear a mask properly and therefore render it basically useless.

A surgical mask is below a N95 mask btw...

[CantStopTheRock]

Thank you for educating people.

Yeah if properly worn and you take human elements out of it like people did not touch their face more because they are not use to the mask. This does not at all account for any of that, nor take into consideration that you can still get infected through your eyes.

I posted several quotes from medical research, CDC and WHO yet you keep ignoring it.

What is hilarious is I use these masks all the time (N95 and dust respirator). When someone new starts or someone is doing a tour and they need to wear a mask, they touch their mask constantly. I also have witness this several times already during the last couple weeks at the store. It will do more harm than good if you keep touching your face and by your own admission people are not capable of basic things like washing their hands or staying indoors so...