OT: Panic Buying. When Will it End?

[Johnny Bball]

You probably have no idea how Asia works these days.
They have little sick days, vacations, and no unemployment insurance, their health care are sponsored but not free like in Canada. Avoiding sick is more cost effective than any of the above.

You probably have no idea what an N95 is or how it works which was my post was about. You probably have no clue that Asia i made up of different countries some of which have far more progressive labour laws in that regard. You probably have spent less time in Asia than I have. And you probably didn't even read my post and responded like you always do, completely out of context about something I didn't even write, just to argue, which is why you're on my foes list.

And when you respire into an N95 for more than 8 hours, it becomes difficult to breath through because it's wet, and then you would adjust it so their were gaps to breathe through... but please... continue with your expertise in the matter.

China has non-existent employment laws and limited social services. Korea is one of the most overworked countries in the world (they rank second in annual hours worked per person). Vacation time and sick days are a luxury. Japan is the only one of the 3 major Asian economies that has employment standards and a social safety net comparable to a western country like Canada, but they still don't come close to most European countries. It's definitely valid to say that overworking plays a part in viral spread in Asian countries.

Also, why would someone wear a mask for 8 hours? You don't need to be wearing an N95 mask. Cheaper masks block particles too. You would wear them in situations where the chance of infection is high (e.g. public transit). You would also carry replacement masks. But if you're infected, wearing an N95 mask all day would be a nice way not to get the entire office sick (but if you can't afford N95 masks, anything is better than nothing).

Japan, Singapore, Thailand even South Korea? Have you been to any often or you just gonna talk about it from google. When did China become all of Asia? And why would anyone wear a respirator for 8 hours? Uh, for the purpose they were invented... construction? Anything with occupational exposure? And if you don’t think people wouldn’t wear it for 8 hours when out of the home you don’t know. And your sick you shouldn’t be a moron a go to work. And no, that’s not the solution and it’s not better than nothing when it’s completely wrong.

What are you guys even talking about.

[tanuki1031]

Geez. Nothing will protect you 100% and preventive actions are good.

You anti-mask people are probably the same jackasses who go out when sick and have beef with things like snow tires, air bags, helmets, etc.

[yellowknifer]

I think that this is going to be a bigger problem than most realize even now. We cant stop everything though. It's just not possible. This could last over a year. A lot of times pandemics come in waves. Spanish flu first wave was pretty bad, 2nd wave much worse and 3rd wave not good but not as bad as the 2nd.

[Raps in 4]

You probably have no idea what an N95 is or how it works which was my post was about. You probably have no clue that Asia i made up of different countries some of which have far more progressive labour laws in that regard. You probably have spent less time in Asia than I have. And you probably didn't even read my post and responded like you always do, completely out of context about something I didn't even write, just to argue, which is why you're on my foes list.

And when you respire into an N95 for more than 8 hours, it becomes difficult to breath through because it's wet, and then you would adjust it so their were gaps to breathe through... but please... continue with your expertise in the matter.

China has non-existent employment laws and limited social services. Korea is one of the most overworked countries in the world (they rank second in annual hours worked per person). Vacation time and sick days are a luxury. Japan is the only one of the 3 major Asian economies that has employment standards and a social safety net comparable to a western country like Canada, but they still don't come close to most European countries. It's definitely valid to say that overworking plays a part in viral spread in Asian countries.

Also, why would someone wear a mask for 8 hours? You don't need to be wearing an N95 mask. Cheaper masks block particles too. You would wear them in situations where the chance of infection is high (e.g. public transit). You would also carry replacement masks. But if you're infected, wearing an N95 mask all day would be a nice way not to get the entire office sick (but if you can't afford N95 masks, anything is better than nothing).

Japan, Singapore, Thailand even South Korea? Have you been to any often or you just gonna talk about it from google. When did China become all of Asia? And why would anyone wear a respirator for 8 hours? Uh, for the purpose they were invented... construction? Anything with occupational exposure? And if you don’t think people wouldn’t wear it for 8 hours when out of the home you don’t know. And your sick you shouldn’t be a moron a go to work. And no, that’s not the solution and it’s not better than nothing when it’s completely wrong.

What are you guys even talking about.

I specificaly mentioned Korea and Japan... And you don't need to visit a country to understand its labour situation.

[Raps in 4]

Chinese Red Cross is shocked that no one is wearing masks in Italy.

[OAKLEY_2]

Geez. Nothing will protect you 100% and preventive actions are good.

You anti-mask people are probably the same jackasses who go out when sick and have beef with things like snow tires, air bags, helmets, etc.

Speaking of jackasses anyone reading about "individuals" going and congregating at beaches for Spring break? No concept of what is happening in Europe? Wait til they make social distancing mandatory lockdown with emergency measures. The economic and health impacts will only get far worse if people do not comply and stand on group activity. Spring break = jail. Really a sad state of affairs to play rebel morons with an outbreak of new origin. Spring break from what? Going to school and not understandiing the stakes? Why do people get educated if they can't understand their immediate environment? Now there's a waste of time educating socially remedial people who are dangerous in their criminal behaviour. There's no time for debate here. Find a way to stay away. Beaches will always be there down the road. This isn't an age thing it is a going rogue mentality in scary times and no time for that now. Time's up.

[Raps in 4]

Geez. Nothing will protect you 100% and preventive actions are good.

You anti-mask people are probably the same jackasses who go out when sick and have beef with things like snow tires, air bags, helmets, etc.

Speaking of jackasses anyone reading about "individuals" going and congregating at beaches for Spring break? No concept of what is happening in Europe? Wait til they make social distancing mandatory lockdown with emergency measures. The economic and health impacts will only get far worse if people do not comply and stand on group activity. Spring break = jail. Really a sad state of affairs to play rebel morons with an outbreak of new origin. Spring break from what? Going to school and not understandiing the stakes? Why do people get educated if they can't understand their immediate environment? Now there's a waste of time educating socially remedial people who are dangerous in their criminal behaviour. There's no time for debate here. Find a way to stay away. Beaches will always be there down the road. This isn't an age thing it is a going rogue mentality in scary times and no time for that now. Time's up.

I'd love to see police breaking up those crowds with a little bit of excessive force. Would make for some good reality TV.

But ultimately, the blame lies with the mayors of those cities that aren't closing their beaches.

[OAKLEY_2]

Geez. Nothing will protect you 100% and preventive actions are good.

You anti-mask people are probably the same jackasses who go out when sick and have beef with things like snow tires, air bags, helmets, etc.

Speaking of jackasses anyone reading about "individuals" going and congregating at beaches for Spring break? No concept of what is happening in Europe? Wait til they make social distancing mandatory lockdown with emergency measures. The economic and health impacts will only get far worse if people do not comply and stand on group activity. Spring break = jail. Really a sad state of affairs to play rebel morons with an outbreak of new origin. Spring break from what? Going to school and not understandiing the stakes? Why do people get educated if they can't understand their immediate environment? Now there's a waste of time educating socially remedial people who are dangerous in their criminal behaviour. There's no time for debate here. Find a way to stay away. Beaches will always be there down the road. This isn't an age thing it is a going rogue mentality in scary times and no time for that now. Time's up.

I'd love to see police breaking up those crowds with a little bit of excessive force. Would make for some good reality TV.

But ultimately, the blame lies with the mayors of those cities that aren't closing their beaches.

I would prefer a biblical drive them into the sea. Mexico is that way.

[JYD]

An unfortunate preview for many hospitals. Bergamo:

https://vimeo.com/398334975

[CantStopTheRock]

There are limited studies that show the effectiveness of wearing masks outside of clinical settings because conducting a controller experiment involving thousands of people would be nearly impossible from a logistical/cost standpoint. A lack of evidence shouldn't be equated with ineffectiveness.

No evidence should also not equate effectiveness.

I at least could find the increase in flu infection rates in China sky rocketing as mask usage increased the last five years. While Westerners without masks remained consistent. This isn't really concrete as there could be many other factors but it , but if masks were as beneficial as the few of you are making it out to be, than you would think it would be helping out some, no?

What Asian experts are saying and the Asian population are doing is not really leading to supportive results.

We have evidence of masks blocking viral particles. That doesn't automatically make them effective, but it sure helps support the argument.

And to counter your example of flu rates in China, I can just as easily point to this outbreak as evidence of masks being effective.

China was able to contain the outbreak. Korea and Japan don't look too far off from the mark. Meanwhile, Europe and the US aren't doing so hot. I mean, no-mask Italy already has more deaths than China, Korea, and Japan combined.

You have evidence that in a CLINICAL setting when worn properly they block particles

You have zero evidence in the general population that is does more good than harm

South Korea has the one of the highest infection / population....

Italy has a high death rate because of an old population, lack of hospital space and a whole wack of other reasons. Isolating that to masks only is absurd

[CantStopTheRock]

Got a link for that?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/861143/influenza-incidence-rate-in-china/#statisticContainer

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201902/22/WS5c6f11daa3106c65c34eaaf7.html

I can't find the link on sales per year on my phone but trust me sales and usage have increased every year.

Nothing in those links proves out the connection you're making. If anything, there is even less validity to your claim (based on the evidence you provide) than the arguments that surgical masks don't offer any protection.

Did you expect us to pay $700 to access the first link? lol

North America flu rate has been constant these last 5 years except one outliner with no masks

China flu rate increases every year by 50% with people using more and more masks -> does nothing to lower infection rate.

I already said it is not concrete or there are not other factors. But China is saying the exact opposite of CDC/WHO/NHS, do you not think it is a little strange that it is a negative correlation?

If say 20% next year wore masks during flu season in Toronto and the flu rate spiked 50%
Then next year 40% wore masks -> again spiked 50%
Then next year 60% wore masks -> again spiked 50%
Then next year 80% wore masks -> again spiked 50%

Then you had Vancouver doing nothing and infection rates stayed constant. If masks (used by general public, incorrectly, touching face more, etc.) are so good at stopping virus transmission do you not think it would have the exact opposite effect?

But how is it a clinical study is proof a mask works? Or a test where they force through particles in a vacuum?

You wear a mask incorrectly with no eye protection and you touch your face more it is just as likely to make you contract it.

[GordanFreeman]

No evidence should also not equate effectiveness.

I at least could find the increase in flu infection rates in China sky rocketing as mask usage increased the last five years. While Westerners without masks remained consistent. This isn't really concrete as there could be many other factors but it , but if masks were as beneficial as the few of you are making it out to be, than you would think it would be helping out some, no?

What Asian experts are saying and the Asian population are doing is not really leading to supportive results.

We have evidence of masks blocking viral particles. That doesn't automatically make them effective, but it sure helps support the argument.

And to counter your example of flu rates in China, I can just as easily point to this outbreak as evidence of masks being effective.

China was able to contain the outbreak. Korea and Japan don't look too far off from the mark. Meanwhile, Europe and the US aren't doing so hot. I mean, no-mask Italy already has more deaths than China, Korea, and Japan combined.

You have evidence that in a CLINICAL setting when worn properly they block particles

You have zero evidence in the general population that is does more good than harm

South Korea has the one of the highest infection / population....

Italy has a high death rate because of an old population, lack of hospital space and a whole wack of other reasons. Isolating that to masks only is absurd

Sheesh y’all are still going on about this? Agree to disagree.

[CantStopTheRock]

Geez. Nothing will protect you 100% and preventive actions are good.

You anti-mask people are probably the same jackasses who go out when sick and have beef with things like snow tires, air bags, helmets, etc.

Yeah you are correct.

Wearing masks incorrectly, touching your face more, and taking from supply is amazing for fighting the spread of the virus.

CDC,WHO,NHS, western medical researchers, doctors and nurses are all idiots and are spreading lies and the trustworthy Chinese government is correct on their effectiveness in the general public setting.

If you put your helmet on wrong and smash your head into the pavement, is it the same effectiveness as when they test it in a lab?

Not one person said if worn correctly it doesn't help. It is the fact that people do not wear them correctly and are prone to touching their face more while wearing one that negates the positive effect it has.

[Johnny Bball]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/861143/influenza-incidence-rate-in-china/#statisticContainer

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201902/22/WS5c6f11daa3106c65c34eaaf7.html

I can't find the link on sales per year on my phone but trust me sales and usage have increased every year.

Nothing in those links proves out the connection you're making. If anything, there is even less validity to your claim (based on the evidence you provide) than the arguments that surgical masks don't offer any protection.

Did you expect us to pay $700 to access the first link? lol

North America flu rate has been constant these last 5 years except one outliner with no masks

China flu rate increases every year by 50% with people using more and more masks -> does nothing to lower infection rate.

I already said it is not concrete or there are not other factors. But China is saying the exact opposite of CDC/WHO/NHS, do you not think it is a little strange that it is a negative correlation?

If say 20% next year wore masks during flu season in Toronto and the flu rate spiked 50%
Then next year 40% wore masks -> again spiked 50%
Then next year 60% wore masks -> again spiked 50%
Then next year 80% wore masks -> again spiked 50%

Then you had Vancouver doing nothing and infection rates stayed constant. If masks (used by general public, incorrectly, touching face more, etc.) are so good at stopping virus transmission do you not think it would have the exact opposite effect?

But how is it a clinical study is proof a mask works? Or a test where they force through particles in a vacuum?

You wear a mask incorrectly with no eye protection and you touch your face more it is just as likely to make you contract it.

Seems to me this summarizes it;
Masks/respirators are not the most important precaution in stopping the spread of infection
respirators are an impossible solution and they aren’t going to be available
Masks could be available, do some good and stop some particles/virus but would never be 100% effective/protective
Masks might make people feel over confident and the message regarding masks should be very clear - don’t go out if sick, keep using other recommended precautions
Masks should be paired with cheap safety glasses

Add to it as you see fit.

[Fairview4Life]

https://www.wired.com/story/coronavirus-mass-panic-unlikely-pandemic/

[CantStopTheRock]

We have evidence of masks blocking viral particles. That doesn't automatically make them effective, but it sure helps support the argument.

And to counter your example of flu rates in China, I can just as easily point to this outbreak as evidence of masks being effective.

China was able to contain the outbreak. Korea and Japan don't look too far off from the mark. Meanwhile, Europe and the US aren't doing so hot. I mean, no-mask Italy already has more deaths than China, Korea, and Japan combined.

You have evidence that in a CLINICAL setting when worn properly they block particles

You have zero evidence in the general population that is does more good than harm

South Korea has the one of the highest infection / population....

Italy has a high death rate because of an old population, lack of hospital space and a whole wack of other reasons. Isolating that to masks only is absurd

Sheesh y’all are still going on about this? Agree to disagree.

We just need basketball back to cool down

[Courtside]

Seems to me this summarizes it;

Masks/respirators are not the most important precaution in stopping the spread of infection

No, they're not. Nobody ever said they were

respirators are an impossible solution and they aren’t going to be available

Right. Nobody said this either.

Masks could be available, do some good and stop some particles/virus but would never be 100% effective/protective

Correct. Nobody ever said they were 100% effective, or even 50% effective. All that has been said is that they ARE more effective than ZERO.

Masks might make people feel over confident and the message regarding masks should be very clear - don’t go out if sick, keep using other recommended precautions

Nobody has suggested that masks would reduce the need for other measures. if anything, a mask wearer is one who is trying to take all possible measures they can.

Masks should be paired with cheap safety glasses

Agreed, but that also isn't part of the discussion here. Availability and cost don't make that practical in non medical or non industrial scenarios.

Just like no one was talking about mass availability of N95s, or people wearing a mask for 8 hours, or any of the other goalpost shifting things you can't yourself from constantly doing.

Tell me if anything here is wrong:

People should be vigilant and take ALL reasonable precautions possible, with priority on distancing and hygiene. If a mask can be worn at times of exposure, say while using mass transit, or while shopping, while bringing supplies to an older family member, then some benefit in using them does exist to reduce possible spread of the virus.

The shortage of proper N95s and general PPE means the general public should not go out and dry up the supply of what does become available (they can't anyways, as most safety suppliers have halted public sales of these items), but if there was a means to increase domestic production of non medical masks that would be available outside their procurement chains, then the public may benefit in some way from access to these products as part of what was described in the paragraph above this one.

Lastly, if there was some means of reaching high volume availability of masks without interfering with medical needs, authorities could/should make a suggestion that masks be one of a group of measures that people should educate themselves on to help reduce spread of the virus.

Please don't shift the goalposts and just answer the above.

[CantStopTheRock]

Seems to me this summarizes it;

Masks/respirators are not the most important precaution in stopping the spread of infection

No, they're not. Nobody ever said they were

respirators are an impossible solution and they aren’t going to be available

Right. Nobody said this either.

Masks could be available, do some good and stop some particles/virus but would never be 100% effective/protective

Correct. Nobody ever said they were 100% effective, or even 50% effective. All that has been said is that they ARE more effective than ZERO.

Masks might make people feel over confident and the message regarding masks should be very clear - don’t go out if sick, keep using other recommended precautions

Nobody has suggested that masks would reduce the need for other measures. if anything, a mask wearer is one who is trying to take all possible measures they can.

Masks should be paired with cheap safety glasses

Agreed, but that also isn't part of the discussion here. Availability and cost don't make that practical in non medical or non industrial scenarios.

Just like no one was talking about mass availability of N95s, or people wearing a mask for 8 hours, or any of the other goalpost shifting things you can't yourself from constantly doing.

Tell me if anything here is wrong:

People should be vigilant and take ALL reasonable precautions possible, with priority on distancing and hygiene. If a mask can be worn at times of exposure, say while using mass transit, or while shopping, while bringing supplies to an older family member, then some benefit in using them does exist to reduce possible spread of the virus.

The shortage of proper N95s and general PPE means the general public should not go out and dry up the supply of what does become available (they can't anyways, as most safety suppliers have halted public sales of these items), but if there was a means to increase domestic production of non medical masks that would be available outside their procurement chains, then the public may benefit in some way from access to these products as part of what was described in the paragraph above this one.

Lastly, if there was some means of reaching high volume availability of masks without interfering with medical needs, authorities could/should make a suggestion that masks be one of a group of measures that people should educate themselves on to help reduce spread of the virus.

Please don't shift the goalposts and just answer the above.

What is one of the worst things people can be doing right now? touching their face

What is it that people do when they are not used to wearing a mask and then put one on? touch their face.

Almost everyone I have seen in public is constantly adjusting their mask. This is worse than having no mask at all

If worn incorrectly (reducing effectiveness) and people are touching their face more (increasing exposure) it is likely not better than ZERO.... THAT IS THE POINT.

You are taking all the good and non of the cons of the mask. No one said the mask wouldn't filter out particles, that is what it is made for.

[Johnny Bball]

Seems to me this summarizes it;

Masks/respirators are not the most important precaution in stopping the spread of infection

No, they're not. Nobody ever said they were

respirators are an impossible solution and they aren’t going to be available

Right. Nobody said this either.

Masks could be available, do some good and stop some particles/virus but would never be 100% effective/protective

Correct. Nobody ever said they were 100% effective, or even 50% effective. All that has been said is that they ARE more effective than ZERO.

Masks might make people feel over confident and the message regarding masks should be very clear - don’t go out if sick, keep using other recommended precautions

Nobody has suggested that masks would reduce the need for other measures. if anything, a mask wearer is one who is trying to take all possible measures they can.

Masks should be paired with cheap safety glasses

Agreed, but that also isn't part of the discussion here. Availability and cost don't make that practical in non medical or non industrial scenarios.

Just like no one was talking about mass availability of N95s, or people wearing a mask for 8 hours, or any of the other goalpost shifting things you can't yourself from constantly doing.

Tell me if anything here is wrong:

People should be vigilant and take ALL reasonable precautions possible, with priority on distancing and hygiene. If a mask can be worn at times of exposure, say while using mass transit, or while shopping, while bringing supplies to an older family member, then some benefit in using them does exist to reduce possible spread of the virus.

The shortage of proper N95s and general PPE means the general public should not go out and dry up the supply of what does become available (they can't anyways, as most safety suppliers have halted public sales of these items), but if there was a means to increase domestic production of non medical masks that would be available outside their procurement chains, then the public may benefit in some way from access to these products as part of what was described in the paragraph above this one.

Lastly, if there was some means of reaching high volume availability of masks without interfering with medical needs, authorities could/should make a suggestion that masks be one of a group of measures that people should educate themselves on to help reduce spread of the virus.

Please don't shift the goalposts and just answer the above.

Yeah ...I’m just gonna say you don’t understand my intent or message one bit.

And I’m not shifting one damn thing. And I already did answer it all, and we agree.

[Courtside]

Mask adjusting happens when people first try wearing them. It's like first putting on a watch if you don't wear one. Once you adjust to it, or learn how to put it on properly from the outset, you don't continue with the adjusting and face touching. In a very short time, the mask becomes a strong reminder to not touch your face.