OT: Panic Buying. When Will it End?

[Courtside]

Seems to me this summarizes it;

Masks/respirators are not the most important precaution in stopping the spread of infection

No, they're not. Nobody ever said they were

respirators are an impossible solution and they aren’t going to be available

Right. Nobody said this either.

Masks could be available, do some good and stop some particles/virus but would never be 100% effective/protective

Correct. Nobody ever said they were 100% effective, or even 50% effective. All that has been said is that they ARE more effective than ZERO.

Masks might make people feel over confident and the message regarding masks should be very clear - don’t go out if sick, keep using other recommended precautions

Nobody has suggested that masks would reduce the need for other measures. if anything, a mask wearer is one who is trying to take all possible measures they can.

Masks should be paired with cheap safety glasses

Agreed, but that also isn't part of the discussion here. Availability and cost don't make that practical in non medical or non industrial scenarios.

Just like no one was talking about mass availability of N95s, or people wearing a mask for 8 hours, or any of the other goalpost shifting things you can't yourself from constantly doing.

Tell me if anything here is wrong:

People should be vigilant and take ALL reasonable precautions possible, with priority on distancing and hygiene. If a mask can be worn at times of exposure, say while using mass transit, or while shopping, while bringing supplies to an older family member, then some benefit in using them does exist to reduce possible spread of the virus.

The shortage of proper N95s and general PPE means the general public should not go out and dry up the supply of what does become available (they can't anyways, as most safety suppliers have halted public sales of these items), but if there was a means to increase domestic production of non medical masks that would be available outside their procurement chains, then the public may benefit in some way from access to these products as part of what was described in the paragraph above this one.

Lastly, if there was some means of reaching high volume availability of masks without interfering with medical needs, authorities could/should make a suggestion that masks be one of a group of measures that people should educate themselves on to help reduce spread of the virus.

Please don't shift the goalposts and just answer the above.

Yeah ...I’m just gonna say you don’t understand my intent or message one bit.

And I’m not shifting one damn thing.

I understand quite fine, actually.

What's also pretty clear is that if I don't engage with any of the strawmen you put up, you have a whole lot less to say.

[CantStopTheRock]

Mask adjusting happens when people first try wearing them. It's like first putting on a watch if you don't wear one. Once you adjust to it, or learn how to put it on properly from the outset, you don't continue with the adjusting and face touching. In a very short time, the mask becomes a strong reminder to not touch your face.

Really?
Do you own one?
What happens when you wear a mask for a prolonged period of time? Especially the cheaper ones you buy from a drugstore?

Please enlighten someone who is surrounded by them everyday for the past 20 years and has seen first hand morons in public the last few weeks constantly touching their face because of them

You make things sound so easy. Please remember we need to already instruct people how to wash their hands because they do not know how (apparently 10000x of repetitions not enough practice). Also constant reminders to stay home when sick and they cannot even manage that

[Indeed]

You probably have no idea what an N95 is or how it works which was my post was about. You probably have no clue that Asia i made up of different countries some of which have far more progressive labour laws in that regard. You probably have spent less time in Asia than I have. And you probably didn't even read my post and responded like you always do, completely out of context about something I didn't even write, just to argue, which is why you're on my foes list.

And when you respire into an N95 for more than 8 hours, it becomes difficult to breath through because it's wet, and then you would adjust it so their were gaps to breathe through... but please... continue with your expertise in the matter.

China has non-existent employment laws and limited social services. Korea is one of the most overworked countries in the world (they rank second in annual hours worked per person). Vacation time and sick days are a luxury. Japan is the only one of the 3 major Asian economies that has employment standards and a social safety net comparable to a western country like Canada, but they still don't come close to most European countries. It's definitely valid to say that overworking plays a part in viral spread in Asian countries.

Also, why would someone wear a mask for 8 hours? You don't need to be wearing an N95 mask. Cheaper masks block particles too. You would wear them in situations where the chance of infection is high (e.g. public transit). You would also carry replacement masks. But if you're infected, wearing an N95 mask all day would be a nice way not to get the entire office sick (but if you can't afford N95 masks, anything is better than nothing).

Japan, Singapore, Thailand even South Korea? Have you been to any often or you just gonna talk about it from google. When did China become all of Asia? And why would anyone wear a respirator for 8 hours? Uh, for the purpose they were invented... construction? Anything with occupational exposure? And if you don’t think people wouldn’t wear it for 8 hours when out of the home you don’t know. And your sick you shouldn’t be a moron a go to work. And no, that’s not the solution and it’s not better than nothing when it’s completely wrong.

What are you guys even talking about.

I have been to all of those countries, although some of them in Indonesia, Philippine when I was young. Meanwhile, as I explained, those developing countries are very polluted, and face mask to filter those dusk helps (you just don't understand and don't want to listen).

Meanwhile, saying someone moron when you have no idea how their culture is simply ignorant. They are easily replaceable on those factory jobs. And someone above also mentioned Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, they all work over hours. My friend in Hong Kong has 12 weeks of mat leave being a mother, not 12 months in Canada.

You just don't understand the non customer facing people there are wearing them the whole day.

[Indeed]

Japan, Singapore, Thailand even South Korea? Have you been to any often or you just gonna talk about it from google. When did China become all of Asia? And why would anyone wear a respirator for 8 hours? Uh, for the purpose they were invented... construction? Anything with occupational exposure? And if you don’t think people wouldn’t wear it for 8 hours when out of the home you don’t know. And your sick you shouldn’t be a moron a go to work. And no, that’s not the solution and it’s not better than nothing when it’s completely wrong.

What are you guys even talking about.

I have been to all of those countries, although some of them in Indonesia, Philippine when I was young. Meanwhile, as I explained, those developing countries are very polluted, and face mask to filter those dusk helps (you just don't understand and don't want to listen).

Meanwhile, saying someone moron when you have no idea how their culture is simply ignorant. They are easily replaceable on those factory jobs. And someone above also mentioned Korea, Japan, Hong Kong, they all work over hours. My friend in Hong Kong has 12 weeks of mat leave being a mother, not 12 months in Canada.

You just don't understand the non customer facing people there are wearing them the whole day.

Do you know what mat leave is in the states?

12 weeks for them as well, while the difference is, Asian people are told to wear a mask regardless of you being sick or not. Maybe less effective for those not being sick, but encourage those who has no symptom with virus in them to wear a mask as well.

[The Duke]

FYI, China at the height of their outbreak …. upped their mask production from $8Million per day to $50Million per day. Was it effective maybe to an extent. But its definitely better then not wearing anything at all. I feel what is being put out in media that "masks do nothing at all", is just to reduce buying/damand of masks, so that they can be directed more towards front line staff, in the early shortage. Surely China, is going to continue production of masks at/above the $50Million per day, because their is a demand for it around the world.

[CantStopTheRock]

FYI, China at the height of their outbreak …. upped their mask production from $8Million per day to $50Million per day. Was it effective maybe to an extent. But its definitely better then not wearing anything at all. I feel what is being put out in media that "masks do nothing at all", is just to reduce buying/damand of masks, so that they can be directed more towards front line staff, in the early shortage. Surely China, is going to continue production of masks at/above the $50Million per day, because their is a demand for it around the world.

No one said they are not effective in blocking particles. The issue is people that are not used to masks tend to touch their face more.

So you get the benefit of blocking the particles but then you are increasing likely hood of transmitting it from direct contact which can be worse.

There is zero evidence that it is better than nothing (if you are healthy) in the general public outside of China saying it is. Yet the CDC, WHO, NHS say the opposite.

If you are coughing and sneezing- yes wear them out. Surgical masks are meant to keep particles from getting out, not in. Sure if there were many more people infected it could make sense for everyone to wear one, but considering it could be doing more harm than good for healthy people at this point it makes no sense to wear one.

The best thing to do is have clean hands and do not touch your face (which the masks effect)

[Courtside]

Mask adjusting happens when people first try wearing them. It's like first putting on a watch if you don't wear one. Once you adjust to it, or learn how to put it on properly from the outset, you don't continue with the adjusting and face touching. In a very short time, the mask becomes a strong reminder to not touch your face.

Really?
Do you own one?
What happens when you wear a mask for a prolonged period of time? Especially the cheaper ones you buy from a drugstore?

Please enlighten someone who is surrounded by them everyday for the past 20 years and has seen first hand morons in public the last few weeks constantly touching their face because of them

You make things sound so easy. Please remember we need to already instruct people how to wash their hands because they do not know how (apparently 10000x of repetitions not enough practice). Also constant reminders to stay home when sick and they cannot even manage that

You think I would be talking about this so much if I had no experience with them at all?

I am not in healthcare, but have been using PPE for about 20 years for work related reasons. Not every day all day, but regularly enough that I placed monthly orders for things like masks, respitators, gloves, ear protection, safety glasses and goggles, and high grade alcohols.

I'm not ignorant or naive about this stuff.

Beyond my own use and FT staff use, I would frequently have temp type people come in for overflow project work and have them wear either surgical masks or sometimes N95s. Usually by lunch time of their first day, they adjust to having a mask on and the frequent adjusting is reduced or stops almost entirely.

Humans are funny like that, being able to adjust and adapt to things they previously didn't have to do.

If you compare someone who wears a mask with any regularity to someone who doesn't wear a mask at all, you notice that face touching is likely reduced a whole bunch, since it's widely accepted that people touch their faces A LOT even when not wearing masks, widely estimated to be about 20 times every hour. People with masks tend to learn to nudge the mask itself from the outside, which still counts as a touch of course, but has to be considered better than rubbing their mouth or nose, putting an object like a pen in their mouth, picking their nose, etc... which people do without even realizing it.


I'm just saying that overall, in the bigger picture of mitigating the spread of a large scale virus outbreak, the wearing of masks - if available outside of medic needs that need to come first - will produce more positive benefit than negative.

[CantStopTheRock]

Mask adjusting happens when people first try wearing them. It's like first putting on a watch if you don't wear one. Once you adjust to it, or learn how to put it on properly from the outset, you don't continue with the adjusting and face touching. In a very short time, the mask becomes a strong reminder to not touch your face.

Really?
Do you own one?
What happens when you wear a mask for a prolonged period of time? Especially the cheaper ones you buy from a drugstore?

Please enlighten someone who is surrounded by them everyday for the past 20 years and has seen first hand morons in public the last few weeks constantly touching their face because of them

You make things sound so easy. Please remember we need to already instruct people how to wash their hands because they do not know how (apparently 10000x of repetitions not enough practice). Also constant reminders to stay home when sick and they cannot even manage that

You think I would be talking about this so much if I had no experience with them at all?

I am not in healthcare, but have been using PPE for about 20 years for work related reasons. Not every day all day, but regularly enough that I placed monthly orders for things like masks, respitators, gloves, ear protection, safety glasses and goggles, and high grade alcohols.

I'm not ignorant or naive about this stuff.

Beyond my own use and FT staff use, I would frequently have temp type people come in for overflow project work and have them wear either surgical masks or sometimes N95s. Usually by lunch time of their first day, they adjust to having a mask on and the frequent adjusting is reduced or stops almost entirely.

Humans are funny like that, being able to adjust and adapt to things they previously didn't have to do.

If you compare someone who wears a mask with any regularity to someone who doesn't wear a mask at all, you notice that face touching is likely reduced a whole bunch, since it's widely accepted that people touch their faces A LOT even when not wearing masks, widely estimated to be about 20 times every hour. People with masks tend to learn to nudge the mask itself from the outside, which still counts as a touch of course, but has to be considered better than rubbing their mouth or nose, putting an object like a pen in their mouth, picking their nose, etc... which people do without even realizing it.


I'm just saying that overall, in the bigger picture of mitigating the spread of a large scale virus outbreak, the wearing of masks - if available outside of medic needs that need to come first - will produce more positive benefit than negative.

In clinical tests there is not much difference between a surgical mask and a N95 mask as far as infection rates even though in a controlled lab a N95 mask should be outperforming a surgical mask but a good amount.

Why is this you ask? Because people are not nearly as you describe and do not use things correctly even some medical workers

Here are some tidbits from the biggest study of N95 vs surgical masks in North America

"While the N95 respirator mask has been shown to be far more effective at filtering viral particles in simulated laboratory studies, these studies did not account for the pragmatic and logistical decisions health care personnel make in the field. "

"They found 207 laboratory-confirmed flu infections in the N95 user group versus 193 among medical mask wearers."

"Study found that only 21% of people are able to keep masks on for the recommended time."

Well this shouldn't be the case if it is as simple as putting on a watch. The fact is the masks are uncomfortable to most people. Even the better mask (in a lab) is not outperforming a loose surgical mask because it is harder to breath through and not as comfortable which leads to people taking it off, adjusting, etc. This is not even taking into consideration of taking it off and disposing properly

If we were in a large scale outbreak area I would agree with you but we are not at that point.

[Indeed]

Mask adjusting happens when people first try wearing them. It's like first putting on a watch if you don't wear one. Once you adjust to it, or learn how to put it on properly from the outset, you don't continue with the adjusting and face touching. In a very short time, the mask becomes a strong reminder to not touch your face.

Really?
Do you own one?
What happens when you wear a mask for a prolonged period of time? Especially the cheaper ones you buy from a drugstore?

Please enlighten someone who is surrounded by them everyday for the past 20 years and has seen first hand morons in public the last few weeks constantly touching their face because of them

You make things sound so easy. Please remember we need to already instruct people how to wash their hands because they do not know how (apparently 10000x of repetitions not enough practice). Also constant reminders to stay home when sick and they cannot even manage that

You think I would be talking about this so much if I had no experience with them at all?

I am not in healthcare, but have been using PPE for about 20 years for work related reasons. Not every day all day, but regularly enough that I placed monthly orders for things like masks, respitators, gloves, ear protection, safety glasses and goggles, and high grade alcohols.

I'm not ignorant or naive about this stuff.

Beyond my own use and FT staff use, I would frequently have temp type people come in for overflow project work and have them wear either surgical masks or sometimes N95s. Usually by lunch time of their first day, they adjust to having a mask on and the frequent adjusting is reduced or stops almost entirely.

Humans are funny like that, being able to adjust and adapt to things they previously didn't have to do.

If you compare someone who wears a mask with any regularity to someone who doesn't wear a mask at all, you notice that face touching is likely reduced a whole bunch, since it's widely accepted that people touch their faces A LOT even when not wearing masks, widely estimated to be about 20 times every hour. People with masks tend to learn to nudge the mask itself from the outside, which still counts as a touch of course, but has to be considered better than rubbing their mouth or nose, putting an object like a pen in their mouth, picking their nose, etc... which people do without even realizing it.


I'm just saying that overall, in the bigger picture of mitigating the spread of a large scale virus outbreak, the wearing of masks - if available outside of medic needs that need to come first - will produce more positive benefit than negative.

I think the best thing is that Asian governments are encouraging those who has the virus feel comfortable in wearing a mask, particularly those who has no symptom (and may not aware they have the virus), which largely reduce the risk of others.

Certainly it may not be very effective for healthy people, but at least everyone will feel they should wear a mask. The difference is that, people are over populated in Asia, and some may feel not needed in NA, which I can understand and could be right, but as I live near the city and may take the subway, I prefer to wear it regardless of me having the virus or not.

Of course, Asian governments did more, they have TV programs to educate people on how to wear them, and how to protect them, which makes it more effective since SARS (10 years ago), and wearing a mask properly may not take someone a month to learn on a daily basis.

[CantStopTheRock]

Really?
Do you own one?
What happens when you wear a mask for a prolonged period of time? Especially the cheaper ones you buy from a drugstore?

Please enlighten someone who is surrounded by them everyday for the past 20 years and has seen first hand morons in public the last few weeks constantly touching their face because of them

You make things sound so easy. Please remember we need to already instruct people how to wash their hands because they do not know how (apparently 10000x of repetitions not enough practice). Also constant reminders to stay home when sick and they cannot even manage that

You think I would be talking about this so much if I had no experience with them at all?

I am not in healthcare, but have been using PPE for about 20 years for work related reasons. Not every day all day, but regularly enough that I placed monthly orders for things like masks, respitators, gloves, ear protection, safety glasses and goggles, and high grade alcohols.

I'm not ignorant or naive about this stuff.

Beyond my own use and FT staff use, I would frequently have temp type people come in for overflow project work and have them wear either surgical masks or sometimes N95s. Usually by lunch time of their first day, they adjust to having a mask on and the frequent adjusting is reduced or stops almost entirely.

Humans are funny like that, being able to adjust and adapt to things they previously didn't have to do.

If you compare someone who wears a mask with any regularity to someone who doesn't wear a mask at all, you notice that face touching is likely reduced a whole bunch, since it's widely accepted that people touch their faces A LOT even when not wearing masks, widely estimated to be about 20 times every hour. People with masks tend to learn to nudge the mask itself from the outside, which still counts as a touch of course, but has to be considered better than rubbing their mouth or nose, putting an object like a pen in their mouth, picking their nose, etc... which people do without even realizing it.


I'm just saying that overall, in the bigger picture of mitigating the spread of a large scale virus outbreak, the wearing of masks - if available outside of medic needs that need to come first - will produce more positive benefit than negative.

I think the best thing is that Asian governments are encouraging those who has the virus feel comfortable in wearing a mask, particularly those who has no symptom (and may not aware they have the virus), which largely reduce the risk of others.

Certainly it may not be very effective for healthy people, but at least everyone will feel they should wear a mask. The difference is that, people are over populated in Asia, and some may feel not needed in NA, which I can understand and could be right, but as I live near the city and may take the subway, I prefer to wear it regardless of me having the virus or not.

Of course, Asian governments did more, they have TV programs to educate people on how to wear them, and how to protect them, which makes it more effective since SARS (10 years ago), and wearing a mask properly may not take someone a month to learn on a daily basis.

I agree with you about the stigma here about wearing masks because I feel that people that are sick do not wear a mask because of the negative looks they would be getting (not just now but every flu season).

Everyone agrees that a sick person should wear it. Sure i guess if everyone wears it then sick people would be more inclined to wear it, but there is no proof it helps healthy people enough to have everyone wear one, and the vast majority of Canadians still are healthy

If your argument was if no one wore masks vs everyone, that is a different. I am talking about sick people and health care people wearing them vs everyone

[6ixSideSniper]

Wearing masks in China? Oh wait...

If you are healthy and a mask helps you out 5% great. But if you then touch your face more often it could make it worse. Everyone wants a mask but no one wants goggles that you can easily go out and buy...

It is more and more common to wear masks in China yet the flu cases have increased 50% each year from 2015-2018. They had more deaths January 2019 than all of the year prior.

Those countries are doing well because they are testing more people.

You're choosing an outlier which I specifically didn't mention. It's the origin of outbreak which was also ignored for 3 months before their government did anything. And the ones I mentioned aren't doing well purely because of testing, it's because they're actually enforcing quarantine.

Sorry i meant to add that the other countries are doing more than just testing (and wearing masks for that matter).

You are trying to tell me how well a mask prevents a virus from spreading. I pointed out a country that is wearing more and more masks each year yet there flu infection rate is going up 50% each year. I am not even talking about the outbreak, how is that the outlier? the data is from 2015 to Jan 2019.

South Korea also has a high % of infected and overall.

I never really argued against them helping if worn correctly and by people that are sick. From what I have seen in public, the people wearing them are causing more harm than good. It would be a waste of supplies to give everyone a mask especially since some people would be wearing it wrong and making it worse, or they simply are not doing basic things already that are easy to do (social distancing, washing hands, stop touching face, etc.).

People showing signs should wear them or stay home (like any flu season). If you have a cough or sneezing, you should wear them. If you are seemingly fine (like the vast majority) we shouldnt be using them because of the supply we have.

Dude ive just read you type the exact same thing mutiple times per page. How many more times do you plan on repeating this? Let me know so i can block you ahead of time, thanks.

[jrask]

Masks help. Nothing is 100% though

Wear them if you can people

[Basketball_Jones]

I’ll only wear the mask if everyone else does it. Seems to draw negative attention here. If it was a higher percentage of protection I’d be down but as low as it is I’ll go without it. Gloves I wear though.

[CantStopTheRock]

You're choosing an outlier which I specifically didn't mention. It's the origin of outbreak which was also ignored for 3 months before their government did anything. And the ones I mentioned aren't doing well purely because of testing, it's because they're actually enforcing quarantine.

Sorry i meant to add that the other countries are doing more than just testing (and wearing masks for that matter).

You are trying to tell me how well a mask prevents a virus from spreading. I pointed out a country that is wearing more and more masks each year yet there flu infection rate is going up 50% each year. I am not even talking about the outbreak, how is that the outlier? the data is from 2015 to Jan 2019.

South Korea also has a high % of infected and overall.

I never really argued against them helping if worn correctly and by people that are sick. From what I have seen in public, the people wearing them are causing more harm than good. It would be a waste of supplies to give everyone a mask especially since some people would be wearing it wrong and making it worse, or they simply are not doing basic things already that are easy to do (social distancing, washing hands, stop touching face, etc.).

People showing signs should wear them or stay home (like any flu season). If you have a cough or sneezing, you should wear them. If you are seemingly fine (like the vast majority) we shouldnt be using them because of the supply we have.

Dude ive just read you type the exact same thing mutiple times per page. How many more times do you plan on repeating this? Let me know so i can block you ahead of time, thanks.

Yeah responding to response to a comment i made on a message board is crazy because i was reiterating a point that was missed by the person replying to me.

[SHFT]

I went to Superstore to get some stuff (primary TP because I had like 4 rolls left and I seen the videos lol) the morning after the NBA made their announcement (which seems like months ago lol). TP was like 70% done.

Had to go back yesterday, wasnt too bad at all. TP for some reason still gone but there was food everywhere. Milk, eggs, bread, cheese, water, all of it. I live in Milton. Have not even had to venture to Walmart.

I think (imo) the initial panic buying (except for TP somehow) is done (here anyways, maybe I just got lucky yesterday) and people are just buying what they need + a little extra.

[Clay Davis]

I went to Superstore to get some stuff (primary TP because I had like 4 rolls left and I seen the videos lol) the morning after the NBA made their announcement (which seems like months ago lol). TP was like 70% done.

Had to go back yesterday, wasnt too bad at all. TP for some reason still gone but there was food everywhere. Milk, eggs, bread, cheese, water, all of it. I live in Milton. Have not even had to venture to Walmart.

I think (imo) the initial panic buying (except for TP somehow) is done (here anyways, maybe I just got lucky yesterday) and people are just buying what they need + a little extra.

We manufacture a lot of toilet paper in Canada. IIRC one of the biggest manufacturers in the entire country is in Mississauga.

PPE on the other hand...

The majority of the masks are being bought up by China and are sitting in storehouses. It's practically impossible for North American manufacturers to make a sufficient amount since even the material is being bought up.

[steamed hams]

I'd be wearing masks if I could actually buy some but they've been out everywhere for a month. I don't really care about the stigma, I'm big enough to defend myself physically and most people stop talking **** to you once you talk **** back.

[Raps in 4]

Mask adjusting happens when people first try wearing them. It's like first putting on a watch if you don't wear one. Once you adjust to it, or learn how to put it on properly from the outset, you don't continue with the adjusting and face touching. In a very short time, the mask becomes a strong reminder to not touch your face.

Really?
Do you own one?
What happens when you wear a mask for a prolonged period of time? Especially the cheaper ones you buy from a drugstore?

Please enlighten someone who is surrounded by them everyday for the past 20 years and has seen first hand morons in public the last few weeks constantly touching their face because of them

You make things sound so easy. Please remember we need to already instruct people how to wash their hands because they do not know how (apparently 10000x of repetitions not enough practice). Also constant reminders to stay home when sick and they cannot even manage that

So because some people don't wash their hands properly, should we just tell everyone that washing their hands is pointless?

[rocky_da_best]

FYI, China at the height of their outbreak …. upped their mask production from $8Million per day to $50Million per day. Was it effective maybe to an extent. But its definitely better then not wearing anything at all. I feel what is being put out in media that "masks do nothing at all", is just to reduce buying/damand of masks, so that they can be directed more towards front line staff, in the early shortage. Surely China, is going to continue production of masks at/above the $50Million per day, because their is a demand for it around the world.

Bingo. Wouldn't want hospitals running out of masks yet somehow the general population that may not be in immediate danger, having them.

[Westside Gunn]

the best mask available right now is your house. use it and make it off limits