OT: Democratic Primary Thread

[j4remi]

I think I'm correct in saying that though. Relationships within the party mean a lot. The party is still trying to build its coalition within and I do think she has a much greater capacity to do that than Bernie. And that at the end of the day is just as important to me as your take on Bernie's impact on policy thinking is to you.

I think you're speculating on one aspect of influencing the party which hasn't even really been proven. I have a tough time envisioning a bigger influence for Warren than Klobuchar, Pete or Clyburn who jumped on Biden's ship and ingratiated themselves sooner, giving their endorsements far more value.

That's not to mention Warren objectively has less delegate leverage, voter support leverage, approval and popularity, career legislative accomplishments, bonafides of passing bills in compromise with a Republican led Congressional Body or any other actual measurable we'd like to look at.

It does not marginalize Bernie's accomplishments, but it does speak to the real politick factors of getting things done legislatively. IMO Bernie has had much more success as a populist candidate than he has had as a legislator. Feel free to disagree, but don't paint as being petty for believing this or for stating I think internal party politics sill require cooperation to move forwards and that Warren is better at that than Bernie.

Bernie was the amendment king in a Republican led House and then passed a VA bill through two negotiating battles. This past year, he was an influential player along with Ro Khanna in getting yet another bipartisan bill mass support via the War Powers Act. I'm not painting you petty, I'm painting you as being completely uncharitable about Bernie's actual accomplishments and ability to legislate. Here are a couple of examples of Bernie being able to legislate even in the toughest circumstances:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/how-bernie-sanders-fought-for-our-veterans-119708

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/mar/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-was-roll-call-amendment-king-1995-2/

And as far as how Warren supporters behave vs. Bernie supporters, my response is simple. I don't begrudge you for being a strong Bernie supporter, but don't downplay my support of Warren as somehow intended to bring Bernie down. I truly prefer her. Maybe you can accept that more graciously. She may have not made it as a presidential candidate, but so what? At the end of the day, neither of them did. Going forwards, they both have role to play and I'd like to leave it at that.

I'm not downplaying your Warren support, I'm calling you out for injecting Bernie and his supporters into a post that had nothing to do with him and now you're playing "victim" because I called it BS to even bring him into the discussion. The pettiness is in feeling the need to mention his name at all.

[Clyde_Style]

I think I'm correct in saying that though. Relationships within the party mean a lot. The party is still trying to build its coalition within and I do think she has a much greater capacity to do that than Bernie. And that at the end of the day is just as important to me as your take on Bernie's impact on policy thinking is to you.

I think you're speculating on one aspect of influencing the party which hasn't even really been proven. I have a tough time envisioning a bigger influence for Warren than Klobuchar, Pete or Clyburn who jumped on Biden's ship and ingratiated themselves sooner, giving their endorsements far more value.

That's not to mention Warren objectively has less delegate leverage, voter support leverage, approval and popularity, career legislative accomplishments, bonafides of passing bills in compromise with a Republican led Congressional Body or any other actual measurable we'd like to look at.

It does not marginalize Bernie's accomplishments, but it does speak to the real politick factors of getting things done legislatively. IMO Bernie has had much more success as a populist candidate than he has had as a legislator. Feel free to disagree, but don't paint as being petty for believing this or for stating I think internal party politics sill require cooperation to move forwards and that Warren is better at that than Bernie.

Bernie was the amendment king in a Republican led House and then passed a VA bill through two negotiating battles. This past year, he was an influential player along with Ro Khanna in getting yet another bipartisan bill mass support via the War Powers Act. I'm not painting you petty, I'm painting you as being completely uncharitable about Bernie's actual accomplishments and ability to legislate. Here are a couple of examples of Bernie being able to legislate even in the toughest circumstances:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/how-bernie-sanders-fought-for-our-veterans-119708

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/mar/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-was-roll-call-amendment-king-1995-2/

And as far as how Warren supporters behave vs. Bernie supporters, my response is simple. I don't begrudge you for being a strong Bernie supporter, but don't downplay my support of Warren as somehow intended to bring Bernie down. I truly prefer her. Maybe you can accept that more graciously. She may have not made it as a presidential candidate, but so what? At the end of the day, neither of them did. Going forwards, they both have role to play and I'd like to leave it at that.

I'm not downplaying your Warren support, I'm calling you out for injecting Bernie and his supporters into a post that had nothing to do with him and now you're playing "victim" because I called it BS to even bring him into the discussion. The pettiness is in feeling the need to mention his name at all.

The two big progressive names in the party right now are Warren and Sanders. If I think one is superior at something it does mean in turn I believe the other is inferior at that same thing whether I use both names or not. Directly stated or inferred, it amounts to the same thing and I'm entitled to that opinion without being attacked for being petty.

Let's take a break on this please. Thank you

[HarthorneWingo]

I find it so ironic that Biden supporters will say that Bernie has had not legislative accomplishments. Well, the progressive policies that he's been preaching for the past 40 years have been rejected by the establishment during that time. And THAT is the reason why (1) we are where we are at today; and (2) why his policies are all the rage today. Everyone is talking about (1) M4A (yes, Bernie "wrote the damn bill"); (2) the Green New Deal; (3) UBIs; (4) expanding the social safety nets of Social Security, Medicare, Veterans Benefits (Bernie wrote that bill too).

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/how-bernie-sanders-fought-for-our-veterans-119708

But instead where going to elect the guy who fought against all of those things, then lied about his rejection of them. Why? Because he's the guy with the hairy legs, the bombastic a-hole who hugs your daughter a little too long while sticking his nose in her hair.

This is the guy who is going to fight for us? We're doomed.

But Bernie didn't pass any legislation.

Watch on YouTube

[GONYK]

I find it so ironic that Biden supporters will say that Bernie has had not legislative accomplishments. Well, the progressive policies that he's been preaching for the past 40 years have been rejected by the establishment during that time. And THAT is the reason why (1) we are where we are at today; and (2) why his policies are all the rage today. Everyone is talking about (1) M4A (yes, Bernie "wrote the damn bill"); (2) the Green New Deal; (3) UBIs; (4) expanding the social safety nets of Social Security, Medicare, Veterans Benefits (Bernie wrote that bill too).

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/how-bernie-sanders-fought-for-our-veterans-119708

But instead where going to elect the guy who fought against all of those things, then lied about his rejection of those policies we need today. Why? Because he's the guy with the hairy legs. Oh, that's Joe Biden, the bombastic a-hole who hugs your daughter a little too long with sticking his nose in her hair. This is the guy who is going to fight for us? We're doomed.

But Bernie didn't pass any legislation.

Watch on YouTube

The answer to this question is everything, my man.

We both know what it is

Until that reality changes, we will get the Bidens of the world.

If Bernie endorses Biden in a week, does that change things for you?

[Pointgod]

This was a fantastic listen. Thanks for the share.

I agree with them that there is an opportunity to for Bernie and Warren to shape some of the brain trust around Biden, because he's really just cipher. People are voting for him because he's familiar, and people perceive him to be a competent manager. There is no policy attached to him, and nobody really cares.

So for the part of the electorate that really cares about policy, he could start cheating off of Liz and Bernie's tests so he can craft an actual agenda.

The biggest thing that Biden should do in this case is to assign Elizabeth Warren to write his policies. Not only would it increase his Progressive bonifides, but Warren is bar none the best policy expert that was running in the Primary. Biden can paint the broad strokes but Warren can fill in the details and be more bold.

Short of picking her as the VP, I think you're right. In that case, she should stay in the Senate as a leading light to transform the legislature.

With your approach, she gets to nail both approaches while giving Biden plenty of cover to install progressive policies within a perceived moderate coalition.

Warren is respected within the party far more than Bernie who has a long history of failure in passing meaningful legislation. She knows how to play the game while keeping her progressive cred intact.

She will influence the future of the Democratic Party far more than Bernie. I hope Sanders supporters realize this, because Warren is our friend and she needs our support too.

There are two issues with picking Warren as VP and they’re too glaring issues.

1. Her state has a Republican Governor who will most likely put another Republican in her seat until the special election. Any Democratic President will need all the votes they can get in the Senate to pass legislation so that’s a no go.

2. Warren doesn’t really contrast well with Biden. She’s another older white person on the ticket, but I don’t think she brings enough of Bernie’s voters over to swing that balance. I think short of nominating AOC as VP, it’s left up to Bernie to tell his supporters to show up for Biden and up to Biden to adopt some of the policies that will appeal to Bernie’s core constituents.

No matter who he picks there are people who will feel ignored but you need to band behind the Democratic nominee which will be Biden

[Clyde_Style]

The biggest thing that Biden should do in this case is to assign Elizabeth Warren to write his policies. Not only would it increase his Progressive bonifides, but Warren is bar none the best policy expert that was running in the Primary. Biden can paint the broad strokes but Warren can fill in the details and be more bold.

Short of picking her as the VP, I think you're right. In that case, she should stay in the Senate as a leading light to transform the legislature.

With your approach, she gets to nail both approaches while giving Biden plenty of cover to install progressive policies within a perceived moderate coalition.

Warren is respected within the party far more than Bernie who has a long history of failure in passing meaningful legislation. She knows how to play the game while keeping her progressive cred intact.

She will influence the future of the Democratic Party far more than Bernie. I hope Sanders supporters realize this, because Warren is our friend and she needs our support too.

There are two issues with picking Warren as VP and they’re too glaring issues.

1. Her state has a Republican Governor who will most likely put another Republican in her seat until the special election. Any Democratic President will need all the votes they can get in the Senate to pass legislation so that’s a no go.

2. Warren doesn’t really contrast well with Biden. She’s another older white person on the ticket, but I don’t think she brings enough of Bernie’s voters over to swing that balance. I think short of nominating AOC as VP, it’s left up to Bernie to tell his supporters to show up for Biden and up to Biden to adopt some of the policies that will appeal to Bernie’s core constituents.

No matter who he picks there are people who will feel ignored but you need to band behind the Democratic nominee which will be Biden

Good Points(God). Yes, it could be a dangerous strategy in terms of Senate seats, but that aside I don't expect her to be the VP anyway. It would be quite a surprise to me if she were.

[Stannis]

2. Warren doesn’t really contrast well with Biden. She’s another older white person on the ticket, but I don’t think she brings enough of Bernie’s voters over to swing that balance. I think short of nominating AOC as VP, it’s left up to Bernie to tell his supporters to show up for Biden and up to Biden to adopt some of the policies that will appeal to Bernie’s core constituents.

No matter who he picks there are people who will feel ignored but you need to band behind the Democratic nominee which will be Biden

I see what you are saying about Warren, and I see that too.

This is my issue with Warren. I'm not sure if she will actually push Biden to adopt more progressive policies. As we saw in the debates, she's frightened by Biden. She totally let him manhandle her on stage, which is totally unlike Warren. Though that was probably due to her eyeing a VP candidacy.

Maybe if she gets it, she'll take advantage of it. Or maybe it will be the other way around, and Biden will actually be the one who influences her.

[NYF13]

And that’s how the thread gets divided.

Hahahahaha!

[j4remi]

The two big progressive names in the party right now are Warren and Sanders. If I think one is superior at something it does mean in turn I believe the other is inferior at that same thing whether I use both names or not. Directly stated or inferred, it amounts to the same thing and I'm entitled to that opinion without being attacked for being petty.

Let's take a break on this please. Thank you

Oh geez, you've expressed open disdain for Bernie previously in our discussions. If my opinion is you shoe-horned a shot at him in there where it wasn't necessary, I'll say as much.

[NYF13]

Um, you appeared out of nowhere saying the bold above and you were not name calling?

My response was mild by comparison

What you mean by appear from nowhere? I am always hear just listening to this Alexandria Cortez kinda of ladies arguing for a party that sucks.

You have 354 posts since 2016. We don't know you. With no prior participation in the conversation, you posted "You guys are a joke". Nothing more to say about it. Now you're adding more insults and expect special consideration? Truly clueless

Why will I even want to participate in a convo with you? Who are you man?

[j4remi]

2. Warren doesn’t really contrast well with Biden. She’s another older white person on the ticket, but I don’t think she brings enough of Bernie’s voters over to swing that balance. I think short of nominating AOC as VP, it’s left up to Bernie to tell his supporters to show up for Biden and up to Biden to adopt some of the policies that will appeal to Bernie’s core constituents.

No matter who he picks there are people who will feel ignored but you need to band behind the Democratic nominee which will be Biden

I see what you are saying about Warren, and I see that too.

This is my issue with Warren. I'm not sure if she will actually push Biden to adopt more progressive policies. As we saw in the debates, she's frightened by Biden. She totally let him manhandle her on stage, which is totally unlike Warren. Though that was probably due to her eyeing a VP candidacy.

Maybe if she gets it, she'll take advantage of it. Or maybe it will be the other way around, and Biden will actually be the one who influences her.

I think she saw the writing on the wall that attacking Biden would turn the moderate wing against her. Castro, Booker, Harris and Pete all tried to go after him and they made no gains with that tact. She wasn't backing down from him over the banking bill way back before she got into Congress. I think the staffers around her really steered her wrong on a number of occasions. Hers was a candidacy with a lot of unforced errors and many came after she brought a big influx of staff from the Clinton and Obama campaigns. You can't run moderate strategies when you're progressive at heart.

It's my belief that she had the best angle to hit him from and could have done so effectively. I wouldn't make her VP to anyone only because she's a valuable voice in the Senate and that's gonna be more important than the next VP. If Bernie was winning, I wanted him to push her to become the next Senate majority leader.

[Marty McFly]

Bernie Sanders is out here trying to deal with a pandemic and Joe Biden is in hiding eating crayons.

[GONYK]

2. Warren doesn’t really contrast well with Biden. She’s another older white person on the ticket, but I don’t think she brings enough of Bernie’s voters over to swing that balance. I think short of nominating AOC as VP, it’s left up to Bernie to tell his supporters to show up for Biden and up to Biden to adopt some of the policies that will appeal to Bernie’s core constituents.

No matter who he picks there are people who will feel ignored but you need to band behind the Democratic nominee which will be Biden

I see what you are saying about Warren, and I see that too.

This is my issue with Warren. I'm not sure if she will actually push Biden to adopt more progressive policies. As we saw in the debates, she's frightened by Biden. She totally let him manhandle her on stage, which is totally unlike Warren. Though that was probably due to her eyeing a VP candidacy.

Maybe if she gets it, she'll take advantage of it. Or maybe it will be the other way around, and Biden will actually be the one who influences her.

I think she saw the writing on the wall that attacking Biden would turn the moderate wing against her. Castro, Booker, Harris and Pete all tried to go after him and they made no gains with that tact. She wasn't backing down from him over the banking bill way back before she got into Congress. I think the staffers around her really steered her wrong on a number of occasions. Hers was a candidacy with a lot of unforced errors and many came after she brought a big influx of staff from the Clinton and Obama campaigns. You can't run moderate strategies when you're progressive at heart.

It's my belief that she had the best angle to hit him from and could have done so effectively. I wouldn't make her VP to anyone only because she's a valuable voice in the Senate and that's gonna be more important than the next VP. If Bernie was winning, I wanted him to push her to become the next Senate majority leader.

The only wrinkle in this for me is that Biden is a one term president either way. It would lend her a ton of momentum and credibility if she could tout 4 years essentially having a major hand in running things, and being able to offer a continuity no other candidate can.

[j4remi]

The only wrinkle in this for me is that Biden is a one term president either way. It would lend her a ton of momentum and credibility if she could tout 4 years essentially having a major hand in running things, and being able to offer a continuity no other candidate can.

Good point, it'd be valuable if she could ride the momentum to a presidential victory. I'd hate to limit her value for 4 years but if it guaranteed a win, I'd take the tradeoff. Bernie's camp was rumored to be exploring the idea of having her take both a cabinet position (I think it was Treasury) and also be VP to see if it would be legal. That seemed like a cool idea too.

[j4remi]

Bernie Sanders is out here trying to deal with a pandemic and Joe Biden is in hiding eating crayons.

Biden insult notwithstanding, has he issued any statements or plans for the virus? Warren and Bernie both had really great plans laid out to start the week. Bernie's using his fundraising list right now to ask for donations to charities related to coronavirus as well.

[GONYK]

Bernie Sanders is out here trying to deal with a pandemic and Joe Biden is in hiding eating crayons.

Biden insult notwithstanding, has he issued any statements or plans for the virus? Warren and Bernie both had really great plans laid out to start the week. Bernie's using his fundraising list right now to ask for donations to charities related to coronavirus as well.

His Covid-19 plan is here

https://joebiden.com/covid19/

The summary is:

The Biden Plan calls for:

-Restoring trust, credibility, and common purpose.
-Mounting an effective national emergency response that saves lives, protects frontline workers, and minimizes the spread of COVID-19.
-Eliminating cost barriers for prevention of and care for COVID-19.
-Pursuing decisive economic measures to help hard-hit workers, families, and small businesses and to stabilize the American economy.
-Rallying the world to confront this crisis while laying the foundation for the future.

Biden understands that this is a dynamic situation. The steps proposed below are a start. As the crisis unfolds, Biden will build on this policy to address new challenges.

I haven't read through it in detail yet

[HarthorneWingo]

Bernie Sanders is out here trying to deal with a pandemic and Joe Biden is in hiding eating crayons.

Biden should be out there with his Health and Human Services nominee pushing the agenda and taking chunks out of Trump’s ass. Where TF is he?

[HarthorneWingo]

Bernie Sanders is out here trying to deal with a pandemic and Joe Biden is in hiding eating crayons.

Biden insult notwithstanding, has he issued any statements or plans for the virus? Warren and Bernie both had really great plans laid out to start the week. Bernie's using his fundraising list right now to ask for donations to charities related to coronavirus as well.

His Covid-19 plan is here

https://joebiden.com/covid19/

The summary is:

The Biden Plan calls for:

-Restoring trust, credibility, and common purpose.
-Mounting an effective national emergency response that saves lives, protects frontline workers, and minimizes the spread of COVID-19.
-Eliminating cost barriers for prevention of and care for COVID-19.
-Pursuing decisive economic measures to help hard-hit workers, families, and small businesses and to stabilize the American economy.
-Rallying the world to confront this crisis while laying the foundation for the future.

Biden understands that this is a dynamic situation. The steps proposed below are a start. As the crisis unfolds, Biden will build on this policy to address new challenges.

I haven't read through it in detail yet

Having something in writing is nice but not what we really had in mind. If Biden is the nominee, then maybe he should get there and act like it. Now is the time.

[Stannis]

Sanders is like Stannis Baretheon. He is inspiring, but not to the masses and key leaders.

Sanders will eventually be president by dealing with the pandemic now.

He's not going to become President to save the country. He will save the country to become President.

#Sanders2024

[Dave DaButcher]

Late to this thread. My 2 cents on some of the topics being discussed:

First, Warren cannot be under consideration for Biden’s VP because there is also a battle for the Senate, and if Biden were to choose her, Republican Gov. Baker would likely appoint a Republican to take her seat.

Second, I appreciate anyone who may have supported Sanders and is finding it difficult to move on. But Sanders has essentially been mathematically eliminated down 313 delegates and with no ability to campaign now. He knows that.

Staying in the race at this point will only (1) endanger the health of Americans who would need to vote in upcoming primaries: (2) hurt Biden in the general; and (3) reduce any leverage Sanders might currently have with regard to drafting the platform.

If the overriding goal is to defeat Trump and do what’s in the best interest of the country, it’s time for Bernie to concede.