Shams: The season is suspended / Coronavirus Thread

[rcklsscognition]

Italy numbers are increasing less and less each day by percentage starting about 2 weeks from lockdown. Increase in cases was just 8% today. Hopefully we see similar results, but it looks like people are getting antsy already. Hope you recover guickly Gomagic44.

[Driguez]

Just going to get ahead of this and say it now; there is no good evidence that chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, and especially azithromycin, affects outcomes for COVID19. It's not even approved by the FDA, CDC, or WHO for use against COVID19. There needs to be clinical trials including humans with COVID19, which are in motion now, before this ever becomes standard of practice, and that could be several months from now. This is really bad messaging by the president.

There are already deaths in the US due to people OD on them

[Ducklett]

Just going to get ahead of this and say it now; there is no good evidence that chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, and especially azithromycin, affects outcomes for COVID19. It's not even approved by the FDA for use against COVID19. There needs to be clinical trials including humans with COVID19, which are in motion now, before this ever becomes standard of practice, and that could be several months from now. This is really bad messaging by the president.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/chloroquine-hydroxycholoroquine-drugs-explained/index.html

Go ahead a take a few moments to read about it. While you are correct that currently we only have small study evidence on two of the drugs, the CDC is recommending testing now and it has "great signals" in test-tube study. Obviously we need real, large human field trials, but to dismiss it outright is worse messaging than that of the president.

[spinedoc]

Just going to get ahead of this and say it now; there is no good evidence that chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, and especially azithromycin, affects outcomes for COVID19. It's not even approved by the FDA for use against COVID19. There needs to be clinical trials including humans with COVID19, which are in motion now, before this ever becomes standard of practice, and that could be several months from now. This is really bad messaging by the president.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/chloroquine-hydroxycholoroquine-drugs-explained/index.html

Go ahead a take a few moments to read about it. While you are correct that currently we only have small study evidence on two of the drugs, the CDC is recommending testing now and it has "great signals" in test-tube study. Obviously we need real, large human field trials, but to dismiss it outright is worse messaging than that of the president.

No, Swami isn't dismissing, he's urging caution, which is a proper thing to do. Contrast that with what Trump is doing, which is over hyping it. What are you having trouble seeing? The article you posted has it in bold type "Evidence only anecdotal, expert says". That is the complete opposite of Trump talking about it as a miracle drug.

[Ducklett]

Just going to get ahead of this and say it now; there is no good evidence that chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, and especially azithromycin, affects outcomes for COVID19. It's not even approved by the FDA for use against COVID19. There needs to be clinical trials including humans with COVID19, which are in motion now, before this ever becomes standard of practice, and that could be several months from now. This is really bad messaging by the president.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/chloroquine-hydroxycholoroquine-drugs-explained/index.html

Go ahead a take a few moments to read about it. While you are correct that currently we only have small study evidence on two of the drugs, the CDC is recommending testing now and it has "great signals" in test-tube study. Obviously we need real, large human field trials, but to dismiss it outright is worse messaging than that of the president.

No, Swami isn't dismissing, he's urging caution, which is a proper thing to do. Contrast that with what Trump is doing, which is over hyping it. What are you having trouble seeing? The article you posted has it in bold type "Evidence only anecdotal, expert says". That is the complete opposite of Trump talking about it as a miracle drug.

The expert said that the small scale human test results are anecdotal, not all the lab tests on both COVID and the whole SARS family where is has been shown to be successful enough to warrant both the FDA and CDC to push for human trials...

"The reason Trump lauds the drugs is because they've been shown, in labs, to be effective against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronaviruses -- including the SARS strain that causes Covid-19 -- as well as other coronaviruses, the CDC said."

How does that fit Swami's "No good evidence" claim at all man?

[spinedoc]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/chloroquine-hydroxycholoroquine-drugs-explained/index.html

Go ahead a take a few moments to read about it. While you are correct that currently we only have small study evidence on two of the drugs, the CDC is recommending testing now and it has "great signals" in test-tube study. Obviously we need real, large human field trials, but to dismiss it outright is worse messaging than that of the president.

No, Swami isn't dismissing, he's urging caution, which is a proper thing to do. Contrast that with what Trump is doing, which is over hyping it. What are you having trouble seeing? The article you posted has it in bold type "Evidence only anecdotal, expert says". That is the complete opposite of Trump talking about it as a miracle drug.

the expert said that the small scale human test results are anecdotal, not all the lab tests on both COVID and the whole SARS family where is has been shown to be successful enough to warrant both the FDA and CDC to push for human trials...

Exactly,we aren't even close to showing causality yet. Meanwhile, people who have been using that drug, like my father for his rheumatoid arthritis or lupus patients, can't get the drug now. Let me put it in a light hearted way. If I scratch my ass and it rains, did I just make it rain? No, but it shows promise.

[nymets1]

My numbers from last night at 9:20 pm from bing.com/covid

As of 9:20 pm Sunday Night

USA- 33,889 confirmed cases( 33,282 active, 179 recovered, 428 deaths)
Florida- 937 confirmed cases( 924 active, 0 RECOVERED, 13 deaths)
Seminole county has 19 cases and Orange county has 33 cases

California- 1468 confirmed cases
Illinois- 1049 confirmed cases
Michigan- 1035 confirmed cases
New Jersey- 1914 confirmed cases
Washington- 1996 confirmed cases

Than the big one- NEW YORK- 15,168 total cases

Today's numbers as of 8 PM

USA- 43,874 confirmed cases
Florida- 1227
Seminole county has 22 cases and orange county has 48 cases

California- 1802 confirmed cases
Illinois- 1285 confirmed cases
Michigan- 1328 confirmed cases
New Jersey- 2844 confirmed cases
Washington- 2221 confirmed cases

NEW YORK- 20,875 confirmed cases

China has 81,116 confirmed cases( 72,703 have recovered but still 5182 active cases)
South Korea has 8961 confirmed cases( 3166 have recovered but still 5684 active cases)
Italy has 63,927 confirmed cases( 7432 have recovered but still 50,418 active cases)
USA has 43,874 confirmed cases( 178 have recovered but still 43,138 active cases)

Being that China has a bigger population than the USA BY FAR, I don't think the USA would pass China's 81,116 confirmed cases but that's misleading cause more than 81,116 people in china had the virus but they weren't confirmed.

USA- has around 327 million population
China has around 1.386 billion population

[Driguez]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Very good read

[Def Swami]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/23/health/chloroquine-hydroxycholoroquine-drugs-explained/index.html

Go ahead a take a few moments to read about it. While you are correct that currently we only have small study evidence on two of the drugs, the CDC is recommending testing now and it has "great signals" in test-tube study. Obviously we need real, large human field trials, but to dismiss it outright is worse messaging than that of the president.

No, Swami isn't dismissing, he's urging caution, which is a proper thing to do. Contrast that with what Trump is doing, which is over hyping it. What are you having trouble seeing? The article you posted has it in bold type "Evidence only anecdotal, expert says". That is the complete opposite of Trump talking about it as a miracle drug.

The expert said that the small scale human test results are anecdotal, not all the lab tests on both COVID and the whole SARS family where is has been shown to be successful enough to warrant both the FDA and CDC to push for human trials...

"The reason Trump lauds the drugs is because they've been shown, in labs, to be effective against severe acute respiratory syndrome coronaviruses -- including the SARS strain that causes Covid-19 -- as well as other coronaviruses, the CDC said."

How does that fit Swami's "No good evidence" claim at all man?

I've read all about it. I want it to work out as much as the next person. If I knew that it could work with certainty, I'd prescribe it to anyone who came to the ER with COVID19 and take it myself.

But, I stand by my claim of "no good evidence." Yes, there have been merely case reports of patients getting better after receiving the drug, but who knows if this is causative or correlative. As you said, it's only anecdotal.

There are some studies that show it prevents proliferation of virus in test tubes. But, you can never simply extrapolate data from that to assume it will make any difference in live humans. More times than not, what we see in those isolated lab experiments doesn't translate to humans.

Which is why it's important to have large, randomized controlled trials before jumping to any conclusions about chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine. Scientists and doctors don't make real life decisions based on anecdotal reports, or case studies.

The Chinese have released statements that the medicines worked for their patients, but they also offered no data to back that claim up.

This is what the President said:

"It's shown very encouraging -- very, very encouraging early results. And we're going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately. And that's where the FDA has been so great. They -- they've gone through the approval process; it's been approved. And they did it -- they took it down from many, many months to immediate. So we're going to be able to make that drug available by prescription or states," Trump said.

He added: "Normally the FDA would take a long time to approve something like that, and it's -- it was approved very, very quickly and it's now approved, by prescription.

I wouldn't even characterize it as "encouraging." The quality of the evidence to back this statement up is poor. It is among the worst in terms of scientific research. When evaluating studies, there's a hierarchy in terms of quality of data to practice good evidenced-based medicine.



The FDA has not approved this drug to be used for COVID19. And they won't until they have large RCT's that prove it works and that it can be safely given to patients. This will take months. It is not immediate.

The FDA even released a statement contradicting the President:

"there are no FDA-approved therapeutics or drugs to treat, cure or prevent COVID-19." Because chloroquine has been approved for other purposes, doctors are legally allowed to prescribe it for the unapproved or "off-label" use of treating the coronavirus if they want. But its safety and effectiveness has not been proven with regard to the coronavirus. FDA Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn, speaking after Trump at the briefing, said that chloroquine would be tested through a "large, pragmatic clinical trial" with coronavirus patients.

My issue with the president's statement is with regard to "ramping up production" for immediate use and describing the evidence is "strong." Sure, ramp up production for those clinical trials, but the idea that we're going to start prescribing this medicine tomorrow or even a month from now without any evidence to back it up would be malpractice.

Again, the moment there is good, quality data that supports it, I'll be all for it. But we're too far away from that right now. I'm hoping we're on the other side of the curve by the time that data come out.

[spinedoc]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Very good read

Although I don't agree with the President's take on it, there is a little bit of validity to it. As a Chiropractor I believe I'm an essential worker. Its not about ego, but I believe I help more than cause risk. I'm taking everyone's temperature at the front door and put up a sign asking anyone who has any contact with someone with symptoms, or have had symptoms themselves to seek other treatment. I've upped my hygiene immensely, and put hand sanitizer everywhere. I've also sent home my receptionist, and put a pause on doing massages in my office to reduce the number of people involved. Its just my wife and I, who is also a Chiropractor. I'm not seeing my usual workload because of the social distancing movement, but have seen multiple herniated disks, sciatica, severe headaches, and general back pain which has caused decrease function. I've seen anyone form first responders, to moms at home with their kids 24/7. I believe I'm reducing the load on the local ER.

I write this because someone recently chastised me as being non-essential. The liquor store in town however has been deemed essential. I find it hard to believe that can be the case. I do have a hard time where to draw that line though because of that. Who are we to say who has a right to work to feed their kids or support an elderly parent. Without a government mandate, or at least a more thorough plan, it feels more like a hash tag movement, or choosing to recycle or something. I believe people are helping, but to me its like building half of a dam. Without testing involved, or a mandate, I don't feel its going to effectively solve the problem. Besides, its different in other places. WA had their wave first, now NY. I believe it needs to be timed based on where you are because we are such a vast country. I'm not sure what the solution is exactly, but I don't believe this is it. A depression is going to have a lot of very negative effects on our health as well.

[The Real Dalic]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Very good read

It's very hard to balance the economy and the stopping of this virus spreading at the same time. We can't completely shut down America because that would be very bad, but we also don't want this thing to continue spreading. Very weird times.

[Ducklett]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Very good read

Although I don't agree with the President's take on it, there is a little bit of validity to it. As a Chiropractor I believe I'm an essential worker. Its not about ego, but I believe I help more than cause risk. I'm taking everyone's temperature at the front door and put up a sign asking anyone who has any contact with someone with symptoms, or have had symptoms themselves to seek other treatment. I've upped my hygiene immensely, and put hand sanitizer everywhere. I've also sent home my receptionist, and put a pause on doing massages in my office to reduce the number of people involved. Its just my wife and I, who is also a Chiropractor. I'm not seeing my usual workload because of the social distancing movement, but have seen multiple herniated disks, sciatica, severe headaches, and general back pain which has caused decrease function. I've seen anyone form first responders, to moms at home with their kids 24/7. I believe I'm reducing the load on the local ER.

I write this because someone recently chastised me as being non-essential. The liquor store in town however has been deemed essential. I find it hard to believe that can be the case. I do have a hard time where to draw that line though because of that. Who are we to say who has a right to work to feed their kids or support an elderly parent. Without a government mandate, or at least a more thorough plan, it feels more like a hash tag movement, or choosing to recycle or something. I believe people are helping, but to me its like building half of a dam. Without testing involved, or a mandate, I don't feel its going to effectively solve the problem. Besides, its different in other places. WA had their wave first, now NY. I believe it needs to be timed based on where you are because we are such a vast country. I'm not sure what the solution is exactly, but I don't believe this is it. A depression is going to have a lot of very negative effects on our health as well.

If someone chastised you for that, I'm sorry man. You don't deserve someone to treat you like that while you are trying to help your patients. I guess that is the problem with something as subjective as "essential" because it seems depending on what state or county you are in, it is different. The idea that you have to explain yourself for helping people is totally ridiculous. Keep doing your thing bud.

[spinedoc]

If someone chastised you for that, I'm sorry man. You don't deserve someone to treat you like that while you are trying to help your patients. I guess that is the problem with something as subjective as "essential" because it seems depending on what state or county you are in, it is different. The idea that you have to explain yourself for helping people is totally ridiculous. Keep doing your thing bud.

Thank you. To be clear, it wasn't an official or someone of authority. It was a long time friend, or at least I thought, who is quite liberal and watches too much cable t.v. We usually agree on many things actually, but people are really harsh and have totally bought into this 15 day thing. I suppose its their way of doing something and have to believe in it with all their might, lol. Confusing times my friends, and we're all stressed.

[fklt]

average american worker already works a month more than an average worker in germany. a loss in productity because people worked from home for 2 months is basically nothing for the biggest economy in the world. don't ever believe this false choice of "lives vs economy" being presented to you these last few days for one second by the stock market warriors. their greed is systematic, and it knows no bounds.

giving up on controlling the disease is not going to save the economy, it's finally going to break the back of regular people, and crash the economy to the ground. market growth is the only metric these guys know, and market crashes are nothing to them because they liquidate and bolt when things fall apart.

[spinedoc]

average american worker already works a month more than an average worker in germany. a loss in productity because people worked from home for 2 months is basically nothing for the biggest economy in the world. don't ever believe this false choice of "lives vs economy" being presented to you these last few days for one second by the stock market warriors. their greed is systematic, and it knows no bounds.

giving up on controlling the disease is not going to save the economy, it's finally going to break the back of regular people, and crash the economy to the ground. market growth is the only metric these guys know, and market crashes are nothing to them because they liquidate and bolt when things fall apart.

I agree, fix the healthcare crisis, and you'll fix the economic one. But, what if we aren't doing either? Its not about the market for me, a lot of businesses won't be there when this is all over. Its not nothing, and that's if you are right about it being a month. Most people in America don't have $400 in case of a crisis, no savings whatsoever. People are going to be in dire straits for other reasons besides this virus as well. I think its more complicated than that. Put General Honore' in charge, and I would feel much better.

[spinedoc]

Just an additional thought. I'm not advocating anything, I simply have more questions. I worry about others who find themselves in this tough spot. I have enough to retire right now. This virus is hitting at a time that finds me the best prepared in my lifetime. Others?, not so much. We could have a broader discussion about how Germany takes care of their people better as well. That same huge economy that has Americans working more, has draw backs on the other end of that as well. If left to their own devices, there would be foreclosures as far as the eye could see. Unemployment as high as 20-30%, and people saying to pull yourselves up by your own boot straps, whether you have boots or not. That leads us back to government, a discussion some are loathed to have. Like I said, its more complicated than that.

[BadMofoPimp]

average american worker already works a month more than an average worker in germany. a loss in productity because people worked from home for 2 months is basically nothing for the biggest economy in the world. don't ever believe this false choice of "lives vs economy" being presented to you these last few days for one second by the stock market warriors. their greed is systematic, and it knows no bounds.

giving up on controlling the disease is not going to save the economy, it's finally going to break the back of regular people, and crash the economy to the ground. market growth is the only metric these guys know, and market crashes are nothing to them because they liquidate and bolt when things fall apart.

I think more for the small businesses, service industry and related low income employees. Loss of work means alot to them, especially small business survival. But, I do think we will survive.

I haven't had a day off in months and even worked 6 days last week. I work in the controls industry and there are always essential customers who cannot close down like hospitals in which I do work for. I am working out of state for the past month on a research campus and some Duke U. projects. Other than that, I don't leave the rental house except for food, gas and the weekend hikes with the dog.

[fklt]

average american worker already works a month more than an average worker in germany. a loss in productity because people worked from home for 2 months is basically nothing for the biggest economy in the world. don't ever believe this false choice of "lives vs economy" being presented to you these last few days for one second by the stock market warriors. their greed is systematic, and it knows no bounds.

giving up on controlling the disease is not going to save the economy, it's finally going to break the back of regular people, and crash the economy to the ground. market growth is the only metric these guys know, and market crashes are nothing to them because they liquidate and bolt when things fall apart.

I agree, fix the healthcare crisis, and you'll fix the economic one. But, what if we aren't doing either? Its not about the market for me, a lot of businesses won't be there when this is all over. Its not nothing, and that's if you are right about it being a month. Most people in America don't have $400 in case of a crisis, no savings whatsoever. People are going to be in dire straits for other reasons besides this virus as well. I think its more complicated than that. Put General Honore' in charge, and I would feel much better.

No, you're hundred percent right. Don't get me wrong, this is the biggest crisis we have faced for the longest time, and yes economy is also a big part of it. People are already in dire straits and it's gonna get worse. This thing will require decisive and organised action and leadership to get through.

Denmark basically guaranteed payment 80% of everyones salaries. France stopped all rents and utility bills. Spain nationalised all healthcare so it wouldn't go down. All expensive and out of ordinary methods, but nothing outside of their capabilities.

The thing is all of these approaches are against institutional reflexes of the american ecomonic elite. They would fight any kind of nationalisation, or any kind of worker right with every fiber of their beings, because that's all they know how to do. That's what they did all their lives. Their instinctual solution to everything is tightening the belt of the work force, and they would blindly continue to do so until we all would fall off the cliff if it means their shares gonna increase in value for just one more day. Just look at how they're treating the climate change. The end of the world be damned, none of them are going to be the one that misses out on the pie as they burn the world to the ground. They don't know how to stop.

Federal reserve pumped trillions to the abstract derivative top layers of the economy. The pot is boiling but they were trying to scrape the bubbles from the top with a laddle to fix it. It didn't work. Now they want to go one level deep and bailout the top corps directly, it won't work either.

Consumers have stopped consuming and they know there is nothing they can do against that for now, so they have set their sights on getting the labour back on labouring. It means more people will die, people will be more fearful when almost everyone has a relative who's dead because of this, more shops will close, hospitals will stop helping just not covid-19 victims but basically anyone. Lots more people will become homeless. But they would gladly walk this walk to the apocalypse, instead of changing on their own accord and sacrificing a little bit their own power and wealth. This is the only reason now they started asking stopping the social distancing measures. Don't be confused about it.

One bit of good news; I think soon they're gonna say okay to the monthly direct payments to people and more help to the small businesses though. that's the only option that keeps the consumers and labour alive through this crisis without giving them any negotiation power or influence over the overall economy. But both of these things are direly needed either way.

[Gomagic44]

Ducklet, I live in Mount Dora and ironically there is a nuclear fallout shelter here. Seriously lol. It's not too public knowledge. Built by wealthy families in the height of the cold war.

Spinedoc, my mom retired from being a pharmacist working in hospitals when she saw this coming. She's 62.

Update: because I am a healthcare worker the president of my company made calls yesterday and I'm waiting on a call from a LabCorp rep who will pick me up at Publix and drive me to be tested. I'm assuming she paid for it too. If I test positive, they will have to notify the CDC and evacuate certain patients with compromise immune systems. So we will see. I'll update again. Thanks for positivity guys!


Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

[spinedoc]

Ducklet, I live in Mount Dora and ironically there is a nuclear fallout shelter here. Seriously lol. It's not too public knowledge. Built by wealthy families in the height of the cold war.

Spinedoc, my mom retired from being a pharmacist working in hospitals when she saw this coming. She's 62.

Update: because I am a healthcare worker the president of my company made calls yesterday and I'm waiting on a call from a LabCorp rep who will pick me up at Publix and drive me to be tested. I'm assuming she paid for it too. If I test positive, they will have to notify the CDC and evacuate certain patients with compromise immune systems. So we will see. I'll update again. Thanks for positivity guys!


Sent from my HD1900 using RealGM mobile app

I have a very good friend that is a Chiropractor in Miami. He is also open, and obviously seeing much less people. His calculus is even tougher than mine given where each of us are located. Again, we have one confirmed case in my county. My friend however who has three kids, doesn't have enough saving to last him a month. Being in Miami, and having children, has been tougher to accumulate a nest egg. I feel I'll need to loan him some money before this thing is over, but just sharing in case anyone else has been stressed about this question as well. Also, really sorry to hear about your situation. I'll be thinking about you, take care.