OT: Democratic Primary Thread

[Pointgod]

Let's play nice guys.

Anyway, yes I think it is important that Biden will be able to support more progressive policies than he's been credited with being capable of backing because the times call for it.

For example, he's actively talking about student loan relief right now. That may not be universal free college some want, but that was a long shot this election cycle anyway. Just getting a bill passed that affords debt relief for student loans would automatically change the lives of tens of millions of America. That is actual change. One step at a time can take you in the right direction.

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

So instead of repeating unsubstantiated talking points, tell me what states Biden loses and why. Explain to me how Trump continues to win in swing states that went blue during 2018. I want an honest analysis based on polling data and non partisan research to explain this line of thinking to me.

[Kampuchea]

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

So instead of repeating unsubstantiated talking points, tell me what states Biden loses and why. Explain to me how Trump continues to win in swing states that went blue during 2018. I want an honest analysis based on polling data and non partisan research to explain this line of thinking to me.

My preference is for Biden to lose, it is not a prediction. I feel as if he will be a massive failure as POTUS and swing voters to the republican side for decades.

I thought Hillary would win last time, as did many on this forum, so I am not giving much weight to your predicted outcomes.

[Cookies4Life]

I'm surprised at some of the comments directed to Clyde Style. He's probably one of the most pragmatic posters on this thread and for some reason people are misconstruing his position as if it's Biden or bust.

Biden has a clear lead in the delegate count and the longer Bernie decides to stay in the race, the longer the party is going to be divided. It didn't seem like democrats all rallied around Hillary once she won the nomination and I think a good amount of people who didn't vote for her just assumed she'd whitewash trump in the election and that there was no possible way he could win.

It kind of reminds me of the Brexit situation a few years back. I was actually living in northern England for about a year- right in the middle of that voting and when the Brexit referendum was approved 51-49%, people were going crazy over there and demanding a re-vote as many people I knew didn't vote at all- they just assumed there was no way England was going to leave the European Union.

I get that Biden's not everyone's cup of tea- a lot of people look at him as part of the establishment and a Washington lifer. But if the alternative is Trump for 4 more years, I'd implore anyone who considers themselves a democrat to vote for whoever the nominee is. There's never going to be a candidate whose ideologies/core philosophies are going to completely align with the voters, you just have to make a conscious decision to vote for the lesser of the 2 evils (as ominous as that may sound.)

[Cookies4Life]

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

So instead of repeating unsubstantiated talking points, tell me what states Biden loses and why. Explain to me how Trump continues to win in swing states that went blue during 2018. I want an honest analysis based on polling data and non partisan research to explain this line of thinking to me.

My preference is for Biden to lose, it is not a prediction. I feel as if he will be a massive failure as POTUS and swing voters to the republican side for decades.

I thought Hillary would win last time, as did many on this forum, so I am not giving much weight to your predicted outcomes.

I'm curious, you mentioned Biden would set back the party "for a couple decades" which is arguably the most hyperbolic statement on this thread.

Do you care to elaborate what positions Biden hold(s) that has you so up in arms about him as a nominee? I've read a couple of your posts but you don't go into specifics about what exactly makes you believe he's such a terrible candidate?

[Kampuchea]

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

As a Libertarian I really can’t stand either Trump or Biden (or Bernie for that matter, but at least I can respect him even if I disagree). One thing a lot of my R friends said/did in 2016 was say they weren’t voting for Trump but only voting to keep Scalia’s seat conservative.

I don’t want to tell you how/why to vote but I feel all my D friends vote so hard on this “purity” test (again, Libertarian I get it) that they lose sight of the bigger picture. You think the Rs lose the war with Trump for 4 more years because some “pure” D will then rise up. History says otherwise...meanwhile RBG and Breyer both >80... even if you get Bernie 2.0 in for 2024 how does it look +2 with those justices removed and replaced with 2 conservatives?

I’m personally not voting for either candidate- I haven’t voted for the D or R in a long time and simply “waste my vote” on an alternative. But I find it interesting that so many of my R friends keep racking up these “battles” that my D friends don’t even realize are taking place...

I may do the same but I am wavering. For the last election, I voted in Florida for Hillary, who I did not support but viewed as the lesser evil.

I was Independent, however, I changed to D as I want to vote in the primary for the party I generally favor in the election.

While the appointment of more conservative justices over the next 4 years will be painful, the chance at control for the next 20-30 years that follow will allow for those errors to be undone and completely revamp the appointed justices.

[Kampuchea]

So instead of repeating unsubstantiated talking points, tell me what states Biden loses and why. Explain to me how Trump continues to win in swing states that went blue during 2018. I want an honest analysis based on polling data and non partisan research to explain this line of thinking to me.

My preference is for Biden to lose, it is not a prediction. I feel as if he will be a massive failure as POTUS and swing voters to the republican side for decades.

I thought Hillary would win last time, as did many on this forum, so I am not giving much weight to your predicted outcomes.

I'm curious, you mentioned Biden would set back the party "for a couple decades" which is arguably the most hyperbolic statement on this thread.

Do you care to elaborate what positions Biden hold(s) that has you so up in arms about him as a nominee? I've read a couple of your posts but you don't go into specifics about what exactly makes you believe he's such a terrible candidate?

This in summation from Current Affairs

The reason many of us are so turned off by Joe Biden is that, over the course of a many-decade career in Washington, he has let us down on the key issues when it matters most. Joe Biden has shown himself to be fundamentally weak, unreliable, and dishonest. He gets taken advantage of by Republicans, and he seems more interested in making friends than advancing Democratic ideals. Biden, ultimately, is truly “just another politician”: a guy who will give you a warm smile and then sell you out behind closed doors, a person who will make terrible decisions and grubby deals and then cover them up with lies. He adopts a “middle class” image but sucks up to the rich and powerful, and has contempt for ordinary voters and their concerns. He’s a man with little integrity or moral character, whose choices in office have caused a lot of people a lot of harm.

[Pointgod]

Progressives got blamed for 2016 and the groundwork is already being laid out to blame us for 2020 as well no matter what we do. It’s like being in an abusive relationship.

I have to agree with this.

The clear sign is progressives being blamed for not going out to vote for Bernie in the primaries (which is fair), but then blamed/will be blamed if they don't vote for the Democrat in the General Election (not fair).

The DNC is already trying to find their scapegoat (Bernie and his supporters) if Biden fumbles in November. Because apparently if you don't pick the **** that smells better, you are a Trump supporter.

The writing is on the wall.

This isn’t finger pointing it’s just math. Hillary Clinton lost one 2016 by 100,000 votes on in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. The Green Party got more votes in those 3 states than Hillary lost by. I’m pretty sure that more Bernie supporters who voted in the Primary stayed home than Hillary lost by. Of course there’s the Obama Trump voters and the millions who voted for Obama in 2012 then sat out 2016. If anyone of these 4 groups had gone for Hillary in the numbers needed to win you wouldn’t be suffering through that national nightmare that’s the piece of trash in the whitehouse. I think the Obama Trump voters are a lost cause, and assuming that the reason the Obama 2012 voters didn’t show up is due to voter suppression, it’s only logical to point to the people that voted for a Democrat in the primaries but then either went Green Party or stayed home could have tipped the scales considering that Trump offered them nothing policy wise and they voted Democrat in the primaries.

Now to 2020. There are four groups outside of the Democratic base(I include Progressives in here) that Democrats need to target. Obama Trump voters, Obama 2012 voters that sat out, new voters and the group that doesn’t get enough attention, Romney Clinton voters. Increasing turn out and getting enough votes will deliver Democrats the Presidency in 2020. I think Obama Trump voters aren’t as reliable so I don’t expect much there, Sanders has managed to turn out new voters and what he should be doing is mobilizing those voters and the Progressive base to vote for Biden with the rationale that Progressive policies are more likely to pass if Democrats control all 3 branches of congress. This lifts the floor for the Democrats, but if they can get back Obama Trump voters, increase the voters that sat out in 2012 and increase their share of Romney Clinton voters swing states then there’s no way Trump can win, but even just two of these groups voting in large enough numbers will eek out a win.

[Clyde_Style]

Progressives got blamed for 2016 and the groundwork is already being laid out to blame us for 2020 as well no matter what we do. It’s like being in an abusive relationship.

I have to agree with this.

The clear sign is progressives being blamed for not going out to vote for Bernie in the primaries (which is fair), but then blamed/will be blamed if they don't vote for the Democrat in the General Election (not fair).

The DNC is already trying to find their scapegoat (Bernie and his supporters) if Biden fumbles in November. Because apparently if you don't pick the **** that smells better, you are a Trump supporter.

The writing is on the wall.

This isn’t finger pointing it’s just math. Hillary Clinton lost one 2016 by 100,000 votes on in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. The Green Party got more votes in those 3 states than Hillary lost by. I’m pretty sure that more Bernie supporters who voted in the Primary stayed home than Hillary lost by. Of course there’s the Obama Trump voters and the millions who voted for Obama in 2012 then sat out 2016. If anyone of these 4 groups had gone for Hillary in the numbers needed to win you wouldn’t be suffering through that national nightmare that’s the piece of trash in the whitehouse. I think the Obama Trump voters are a lost cause, and assuming that the reason the Obama 2012 voters didn’t show up is due to voter suppression, it’s only logical to point to the people that voted for a Democrat in the primaries but then either went Green Party or stayed home could have tipped the scales considering that Trump offered them nothing policy wise and they voted Democrat in the primaries.

Now to 2020. There are four groups outside of the Democratic base(I include Progressives in here) that Democrats need to target. Obama Trump voters, Obama 2012 voters that sat out, new voters and the group that doesn’t get enough attention, Romney Clinton voters. Increasing turn out and getting enough votes will deliver Democrats the Presidency in 2020. I think Obama Trump voters aren’t as reliable so I don’t expect much there, Sanders has managed to turn out new voters and what he should be doing is mobilizing those voters and the Progressive base to vote for Biden with the rationale that Progressive policies are more likely to pass if Democrats control all 3 branches of congress. This lifts the floor for the Democrats, but if they can get back Obama Trump voters, increase the voters that sat out in 2012 and increase their share of Romney Clinton voters swing states then there’s no way Trump can win, but even just two of these groups voting in large enough numbers will eek out a win.

Yeah, Gore's margin of defeat in corrupt, hanging-chad Florida was exceeded by the number of votes cast for Ralph Nader in the state. It did cost him the election.

The math is certainly real and doesn't require anticipatory finger-pointing to make the case that any abstentions or votes cast in Swing states for anyone other than the Democratic nominee may in effect tip the election and thus be throwing critical support to Trump and the GOP.

If you're registered in NY it probably will have no effect on the election, just like a vote for Nader in NY did not affect Gore's chances. If you're registered in a swing state, then it does matter. There are at best very few people here that fit that criteria.

I happen to be in a swing state (for now), but I'm pretty sure I will no longer be living in Florida by November. I will probably will hold off on registering in a new state and will still cast my mail-in ballot in Florida though because I know it will matter.

[Knickfan1982]

If you are for Bernie that is cool but when Joe wins the nomination your asses better be at the polls for Uncle Joe or you are pretty much the equivalent of a Trump supporter.

I live in a state Biden would win anyway so if I am going to waste my vote on a terrible candidate I will vote for Jimmy "the Rent is Too Damned High" McMillan. He will karate chop the shiznit out of the coronavirus and save the country in one fell swoop.

[Phish Tank]

hopefully less people will go the route of Jill Stein or follow the lead of the Susan Sarandons

[robillionaire]

I have to agree with this.

The clear sign is progressives being blamed for not going out to vote for Bernie in the primaries (which is fair), but then blamed/will be blamed if they don't vote for the Democrat in the General Election (not fair).

The DNC is already trying to find their scapegoat (Bernie and his supporters) if Biden fumbles in November. Because apparently if you don't pick the **** that smells better, you are a Trump supporter.

The writing is on the wall.

This isn’t finger pointing it’s just math. Hillary Clinton lost one 2016 by 100,000 votes on in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. The Green Party got more votes in those 3 states than Hillary lost by. I’m pretty sure that more Bernie supporters who voted in the Primary stayed home than Hillary lost by. Of course there’s the Obama Trump voters and the millions who voted for Obama in 2012 then sat out 2016. If anyone of these 4 groups had gone for Hillary in the numbers needed to win you wouldn’t be suffering through that national nightmare that’s the piece of trash in the whitehouse. I think the Obama Trump voters are a lost cause, and assuming that the reason the Obama 2012 voters didn’t show up is due to voter suppression, it’s only logical to point to the people that voted for a Democrat in the primaries but then either went Green Party or stayed home could have tipped the scales considering that Trump offered them nothing policy wise and they voted Democrat in the primaries.

Now to 2020. There are four groups outside of the Democratic base(I include Progressives in here) that Democrats need to target. Obama Trump voters, Obama 2012 voters that sat out, new voters and the group that doesn’t get enough attention, Romney Clinton voters. Increasing turn out and getting enough votes will deliver Democrats the Presidency in 2020. I think Obama Trump voters aren’t as reliable so I don’t expect much there, Sanders has managed to turn out new voters and what he should be doing is mobilizing those voters and the Progressive base to vote for Biden with the rationale that Progressive policies are more likely to pass if Democrats control all 3 branches of congress. This lifts the floor for the Democrats, but if they can get back Obama Trump voters, increase the voters that sat out in 2012 and increase their share of Romney Clinton voters swing states then there’s no way Trump can win, but even just two of these groups voting in large enough numbers will eek out a win.

Yeah, Gore's margin of defeat in corrupt, hanging-chad Florida was exceeded by the number of votes cast for Ralph Nader in the state. It did cost him the election.

The math is certainly real and doesn't require anticipatory finger-pointing to make the case that any abstentions or votes cast in Swing states for anyone other than the Democratic nominee may in effect tip the election and thus be throwing critical support to Trump and the GOP.

If you're registered in NY it probably will have no effect on the election, just like a vote for Nader in NY did not affect Gore's chances. If you're registered in a swing state, then it does matter. There are at best very few people here that fit that criteria.

I happen to be in a swing state (for now), but I'm pretty sure I will no longer be living in Florida by November. I will probably will hold off on registering in a new state and will still cast my mail-in ballot in Florida though because I know it will matter.

The error in this line thinking is that they would have all voted for gore or Hillary as their 2nd option as opposed to another 3rd party candidate, the GOP candidate, or nobody. Those voters were never owned by the DNC despite popular belief. They ran failed campaigns.

At what point do they say maybe it’s our fault we aren’t getting people to vote for us

Someone mentioned a few pages back that poor and working class people are trump’s base. That sounds like a major problem they had 4 years to address. HRC didn’t even campaign in the rust belt

[robillionaire]

Almost half the country doesn’t even vote at all

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

I happen to be in a swing state (for now), but I'm pretty sure I will no longer be living in Florida by November. I will probably will hold off on registering in a new state and will still cast my mail-in ballot in Florida though because I know it will matter.

Woah. Really? I wouldn't be "pretty sure" you'd be able to take a plane out of Florida at the time of your choice by November, let alone moving residence.

But good luck with your moving plans.

I, theoretically, will be moving from country A to country B towards the end of April and from country B to country C at the start of July or start of August.

I think there is essentially a 0% chance I will be permitted (let alone able) to make either of those moves.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

they can appoint corrupt judges

?

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Even I didn't realized how much of Warren's support came from women who were not automatically moving over to Sanders (as I was not).

Interesting. Did you not read the results of 2016 and see how much of Clinton's support came from women wanting a woman?

[HarthorneWingo]

Even I didn't realized how much of Warren's support came from women who were not automatically moving over to Sanders (as I was not).

Interesting. Did you not read the results of 2016 and see how much of Clinton's support came from women wanting a woman?

Warren tried for that demographic when brought on Hillary's apparent B-staffers to run her campaign. That's when we got the "Bernie is a sexist," "Bernie called me a liar," and "the Bernie bros are pasting snake emojis on my twitter feed." That all blew up in her face and she literally plummeted in the polls.

[Stannis]

This isn’t finger pointing it’s just math. Hillary Clinton lost one 2016 by 100,000 votes on in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. The Green Party got more votes in those 3 states than Hillary lost by. I’m pretty sure that more Bernie supporters who voted in the Primary stayed home than Hillary lost by.

The math is certainly real and doesn't require anticipatory finger-pointing to make the case that any abstentions or votes cast in Swing states for anyone other than the Democratic nominee may in effect tip the election and thus be throwing critical support to Trump and the GOP.

This is what I'm talking about. DNC feels entitled these 3rd party votes or voters who stay at home.

Fact of the matter is, if Jill Stein voters didn't vote for her, they probably would have voted for some other third party candidate.

And the GOP could say the same thing if they lost states by close margin, e.g. "If people didn't vote for Gary Johnson, we would have won those states". It's really a never ending line of thinking, considering more than half the eligible voters don't actually vote.

[Clyde_Style]

I happen to be in a swing state (for now), but I'm pretty sure I will no longer be living in Florida by November. I will probably will hold off on registering in a new state and will still cast my mail-in ballot in Florida though because I know it will matter.

Woah. Really? I wouldn't be "pretty sure" you'd be able to take a plane out of Florida at the time of your choice by November, let alone moving residence.

But good luck with your moving plans.

I, theoretically, will be moving from country A to country B towards the end of April and from country B to country C at the start of July or start of August.

I think there is essentially a 0% chance I will be permitted (let alone able) to make either of those moves.

No biggie, no planes needed. It looks like I'll drive to the Northeast this Summer and never look back. Fck Florida

Where are you coming and going?

[Clyde_Style]

This isn’t finger pointing it’s just math. Hillary Clinton lost one 2016 by 100,000 votes on in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. The Green Party got more votes in those 3 states than Hillary lost by. I’m pretty sure that more Bernie supporters who voted in the Primary stayed home than Hillary lost by.

The math is certainly real and doesn't require anticipatory finger-pointing to make the case that any abstentions or votes cast in Swing states for anyone other than the Democratic nominee may in effect tip the election and thus be throwing critical support to Trump and the GOP.

This is what I'm talking about. DNC feels entitled these 3rd party votes or voters who stay at home.

Fact of the matter is, if Jill Stein voters didn't vote for her, they probably would have voted for some other third party candidate.

And the GOP could say the same thing if they lost states by close margin, e.g. "If people didn't vote for Gary Johnson, we would have won those states". It's really a never ending line of thinking, considering more than half the eligible voters don't actually vote.

I don't know why you guys are consistently saying you're offended, etc. when you're calling someone like myself entitled which you're using as a pejorative. I don't need to know EXACTLY how many voters would shift in those situations to say the Math is Real.

Here's the numbers

Nader received 97,421 votes in Florida

Bush won Florida's electoral votes by a margin of only 537 votes out of almost six million cast

So yeah, voting for Nader did swing the election.

[Clyde_Style]

I'm surprised at some of the comments directed to Clyde Style. He's probably one of the most pragmatic posters on this thread and for some reason people are misconstruing his position as if it's Biden or bust.

Biden has a clear lead in the delegate count and the longer Bernie decides to stay in the race, the longer the party is going to be divided. It didn't seem like democrats all rallied around Hillary once she won the nomination and I think a good amount of people who didn't vote for her just assumed she'd whitewash trump in the election and that there was no possible way he could win.

It kind of reminds me of the Brexit situation a few years back. I was actually living in northern England for about a year- right in the middle of that voting and when the Brexit referendum was approved 51-49%, people were going crazy over there and demanding a re-vote as many people I knew didn't vote at all- they just assumed there was no way England was going to leave the European Union.

I get that Biden's not everyone's cup of tea- a lot of people look at him as part of the establishment and a Washington lifer. But if the alternative is Trump for 4 more years, I'd implore anyone who considers themselves a democrat to vote for whoever the nominee is. There's never going to be a candidate whose ideologies/core philosophies are going to completely align with the voters, you just have to make a conscious decision to vote for the lesser of the 2 evils (as ominous as that may sound.)

Thanks for the support.

I could just give up and say enough with the abuse, but this need to label my reasoning as some sort of obstacle to progressive change has been both rude and immature. As a progressive who has lived through a few things, I'd think my outlook would count for something as I have the best interests of left-leaning people at heart, but that has not been the case here. It does show me that pragmatism is not valued that much and we're in an era of polarization even among people who have no business polarizing each other. I'm fond of Warren, but if I carried on about her the way the Sanders supporters carry on about Bernie, god knows what names I'd be called. I think I've been as tolerant as possible and I will continue to try to be, but I have my limits.