1988 Finals Game 6 Discussion: Detroit vs LA

[Amare_1_Knicks]

With this whole hiatus, there are obviously no new games being played, but NBA TV has retro/classic games going around the clock for free (as most of us know). I've been watching some of these games and didn't see a place to discuss, so here it is - if anyone is watching/interested.

First thing that's jumped out is a few travel calls the refs enforced that players get away with nowadays. Also, the physicality on a possession to possession basis is like night and day compared to the league today.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

Magic's outside shot actually looks pretty reliable/on-target from near the 3-point line.

[Rich Michmond]

Magic's outside shot actually looks pretty reliable/on-target from near the 3-point line.

He did shot a very respectable .380 on 3.5 attempts in one of his final seasons and was a great FT shooter. There's no doubt that he'd be at least a decent shooter from deep in today's NBA.

[justme400e]

If Isaiah doesn't step on Coopers foot, it's a three-peat for Detroit.

[Metallikid]

If Isaiah doesn't step on Coopers foot, it's a three-peat for Detroit.

Christian Laettner on the Dream Team SMH...

[Roscoe Sheed]

If Isaiah doesn't step on Coopers foot, it's a three-peat for Detroit.

Perhaps- that and the controversial call on Laimbeer.

However, I’m far from a laker homer (in fact I’m the furthest thing from it now), but the lakers had a decent chance to win in 89 if not for injuries to Scott and magic

[Pennebaker]

With this whole hiatus, there are obviously no new games being played, but NBA TV has retro/classic games going around the clock for free (as most of us know). I've been watching some of these games and didn't see a place to discuss, so here it is - if anyone is watching/interested.

First thing that's jumped out is a few travel calls the refs enforced that players get away with nowadays. Also, the physicality on a possession to possession basis is like night and day compared to the league today.

Ths Pistons were called The Bad Boys for a reason.

But you can credit Jordan and the Bulls for the league going in a softer direction.

Michael Jordan, May 1991:

"You see two different styles with us and them. The dirty play and the flagrant fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct. Hopefully, that will be eliminated from the game.

I think we play clean basketball. We don`t go out and try to hurt people and dirty up the game.

You never lose respect for the champions. But I haven`t agreed with the methods they used. I think people are happy the game will get back to a clean game and away from the `Bad Boy` image.

I don`t think people want that kind of basketball. I think they want to push that type of basketball out.

We`ve taken the Good Boy image and walked away. We may have complained about it and told the teacher, or whatever, but we never tried to lower ourselves to that level.''

[WOW! Look at MJ calling himself a "good boy" and ratting on Detroit to "the teacher." Imagine the criticism a star player today would get for saying something soft like that.]

Phil Jackson, May 1991:

"We believe playing our kind of basketball-solid, movement of ball, passing, being unselfish-is an enjoyable style to watch. We think that kind of game is clean and quick, and we think it`s just time to move onto another style of basketball in the NBA.''

Little did Jackson and Jordan know that the public would come to miss that kind of basketball.

But depending on which modern series you watch you can find equal if not worse physicality. The Heat-Pacers from 2012 for example is one of the most intentionally bloody I've ever seen and I've been watching since about 1988.

[Uncle Mxy]

Two words: Phantom Foul

[DavidSterned]

I always found it kinda ironic that the Pistons lost the game on a bogus call on Laimbeer, who made a career out of clobbering people when the refs weren't looking and flopping like a fish when they were.

[NPZ]

Two words: Phantom Foul

3 words, 2 hyphenated: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

[mingus]

With this whole hiatus, there are obviously no new games being played, but NBA TV has retro/classic games going around the clock for free (as most of us know). I've been watching some of these games and didn't see a place to discuss, so here it is - if anyone is watching/interested.

First thing that's jumped out is a few travel calls the refs enforced that players get away with nowadays. Also, the physicality on a possession to possession basis is like night and day compared to the league today.

Ths Pistons were called The Bad Boys for a reason.

But you can credit Jordan and the Bulls for the league going in a softer direction.

Michael Jordan, May 1991:

"You see two different styles with us and them. The dirty play and the flagrant fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct. Hopefully, that will be eliminated from the game.

I think we play clean basketball. We don`t go out and try to hurt people and dirty up the game.

You never lose respect for the champions. But I haven`t agreed with the methods they used. I think people are happy the game will get back to a clean game and away from the `Bad Boy` image.

I don`t think people want that kind of basketball. I think they want to push that type of basketball out.

We`ve taken the Good Boy image and walked away. We may have complained about it and told the teacher, or whatever, but we never tried to lower ourselves to that level.''

[WOW! Look at MJ calling himself a "good boy" and ratting on Detroit to "the teacher." Imagine the criticism a star player today would get for saying something soft like that.]

Phil Jackson, May 1991:

"We believe playing our kind of basketball-solid, movement of ball, passing, being unselfish-is an enjoyable style to watch. We think that kind of game is clean and quick, and we think it`s just time to move onto another style of basketball in the NBA.''

Little did Jackson and Jordan know that the public would come to miss that kind of basketball.

But depending on which modern series you watch you can find equal if not worse physicality. The Heat-Pacers from 2012 for example is one of the most intentionally bloody I've ever seen and I've been watching since about 1988.

I wasn’t around to see the “Bad Boy” Pistons, but if in fact players were going out there trying to hurt other players, then I’m glad the NBA went away from that.

There have been many great teams before & since them that were probably just as good defensively as those Pistons but never tried to compromise another other players’ health.

I don’t think “enforcer” type players belong in the league. Tough, hard-nosed—yes. But that’s different. It’s not football or hockey. When guys hit the floor or get hit in the head, they’re falling on a hard surface & they’re not wearing any kind of padding. Ron Artest’s elbow to Harden’s head comes to mind. Take that sh*t out of the league for good before someone gets seriously hurt & we’re using a tragedy to create policy when all it took was some common sense.

[Roscoe Sheed]

I understand what you’re saying, but imagine harden trying to play back then- if he tried to pull his ref baiting garbage a team like the pistons would clobber him and maybe he’d think twice about it

[Showtime 80]

LOL, Michael Jordan and the Bulls' quotes from 1991 against the Bad Boys always get brought up when talking about the NBA's shift away from physical basketball but even 4 years earlier Larry Bird and the Celtics agreed with Michael and wanted the league to do something about it:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-05-24-8702080545-story.html

What people fail to understand is that neither Michael, Larry or Magic for that matter were against physical gritty play styles which included good hard fouls but rather the extra foul deliberate bad intention hits a guy like Bill Laimbeer was getting away with which in that sense I agreed with them.

However, as you can see from the Tribune article which was from the 1987 ECF, the league didn't do a damn thing about the Pistons until 1991 which was just in time for their new shiny long term deal with NBC, the REAL REASON the NBA put in the flagrant foul rules and portray a more wholesome image for the masses. From 1988 to 1990 the Bad Boys beat up on all the leagues marquee stars like Jordan, Bird, Magic, Ewing, Barkley, Wilkins etc... and NOBODY batted an eye.

Even before the flagrant foul rules Michael and the Bulls had the Bad Boys on the ropes in 1990 and probably win the ECF if Pippen doesn't have the game 7 migraine and after the rules were put in place they had to go through two of the most physical series in NBA history against the Riley's Knicks in 1992 and 93 not to mention the wars the Pacers-Knicks and Heat-Knicks battled in the mid to late 90's. The 1991 flagrant foul rules did little to curtail physicality.

The real change for scrapping away any semblance of physicality from the NBA came in 2005 after the defensive oriented Pistons and Spurs dominated for two straight seasons when the league decided to eliminate the hand check for good which combined with the 3 second defensive rule basically gave a red carpet waltz to all perimeter players and thus creating the unwatchable soft manufactured abomination that is the modern NBA.

Here's a nice little video explaining what happened:

Watch on YouTube

;t=1s

[KGtabake]

But you can credit Jordan and the Bulls for the league going in a softer direction.

But depending on which modern series you watch you can find equal if not worse physicality. The Heat-Pacers from 2012 for example is one of the most intentionally bloody I've ever seen and I've been watching since about 1988.

[MotownMadness]

With this whole hiatus, there are obviously no new games being played, but NBA TV has retro/classic games going around the clock for free (as most of us know). I've been watching some of these games and didn't see a place to discuss, so here it is - if anyone is watching/interested.

First thing that's jumped out is a few travel calls the refs enforced that players get away with nowadays. Also, the physicality on a possession to possession basis is like night and day compared to the league today.

Ths Pistons were called The Bad Boys for a reason.

But you can credit Jordan and the Bulls for the league going in a softer direction.

Michael Jordan, May 1991:

"You see two different styles with us and them. The dirty play and the flagrant fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct. Hopefully, that will be eliminated from the game.

I think we play clean basketball. We don`t go out and try to hurt people and dirty up the game.

You never lose respect for the champions. But I haven`t agreed with the methods they used. I think people are happy the game will get back to a clean game and away from the `Bad Boy` image.

I don`t think people want that kind of basketball. I think they want to push that type of basketball out.

We`ve taken the Good Boy image and walked away. We may have complained about it and told the teacher, or whatever, but we never tried to lower ourselves to that level.''

[WOW! Look at MJ calling himself a "good boy" and ratting on Detroit to "the teacher." Imagine the criticism a star player today would get for saying something soft like that.]

Phil Jackson, May 1991:

"We believe playing our kind of basketball-solid, movement of ball, passing, being unselfish-is an enjoyable style to watch. We think that kind of game is clean and quick, and we think it`s just time to move onto another style of basketball in the NBA.''

Little did Jackson and Jordan know that the public would come to miss that kind of basketball.

But depending on which modern series you watch you can find equal if not worse physicality. The Heat-Pacers from 2012 for example is one of the most intentionally bloody I've ever seen and I've been watching since about 1988.

I wasn’t around to see the “Bad Boy” Pistons, but if in fact players were going out there trying to hurt other players, then I’m glad the NBA went away from that.

There have been many great teams before & since them that were probably just as good defensively as those Pistons but never tried to compromise another other players’ health.

I don’t think “enforcer” type players belong in the league. Tough, hard-nosed—yes. But that’s different. It’s not football or hockey. When guys hit the floor or get hit in the head, they’re falling on a hard surface & they’re not wearing any kind of padding. Ron Artest’s elbow to Harden’s head comes to mind. Take that sh*t out of the league for good before someone gets seriously hurt & we’re using a tragedy to create policy when all it took was some common sense.

Alot of it was from Laimbeer, he had no problem slipping his foot under your landing from a jump shot in a attempt to twist your ankle.

[mingus]

I understand what you’re saying, but imagine harden trying to play back then- if he tried to pull his ref baiting garbage a team like the pistons would clobber him and maybe he’d think twice about it

I can imagine this:

There’s only so much you can do in real-time to penalize & eliminate flopping. But the refs have done a better job of swallowing their whistles on that stuff than years ago when it became a ubiquitous & coincided (not coincidentally) w/ the “Europeanizing” of the league (granted, there are examples of flopping long before the migration of Europeans to the NBA, but it wasn’t being used nearly as much). I think more can be done in terms of fines after the games have ended & refs/the league get a chance to review it. But bottom line is it’s not as bad as it once was.

What I can’t imagine is “clobbering” anyone for it to the point there’s a chance they’ll get seriously injured.

And this is where terminology is relevant. To me, “clobbering” implies negligence, recklessness. It’s the difference between shoving a guy hard while he’s going for a lay-up & his feet are still on the floor or even if he’s off the floor & intentionally bodying up w/ him in mid-air, & clotheslining a guy while he’s in mid-air or putting your foot under him before he lands. It’s the difference between cracking a guy good in the ribs or abdomen w/ an elbow & cracking him around the neck or head.

Guys like Lambeer don’t belong in the league anymore. Besides the ethical reasons, guys just make too much money now. And I think Michael Jordan being what he was & knowing his value to the league & having the marketing appeal he had, he used that as leverage to take it out of the game. It’s no coincidence that the game has gotten “softer” as players’ monetary value has gone way up. And Jordan really took the game to that level, where’ve players are their own brands & enterprises.

Unless the NBA’s financial situation ever worsens to a degree where players don’t have the monetary value & leverage near what they have now, I can’t see a scenario where stuff like that makes it’s way back into the league. In the end, I think everyone wins except the dudes w/ minimal talent who can pretty much only make a living playing basketball by clobbering players, some of whom help pay a good % of their wages to begin w/.

[Roscoe Sheed]

I understand what you’re saying, but imagine harden trying to play back then- if he tried to pull his ref baiting garbage a team like the pistons would clobber him and maybe he’d think twice about it

I can imagine this:

There’s only so much you can do in real-time to penalize & eliminate flopping. But the refs have done a better job of swallowing their whistles on that stuff than years ago when it became a ubiquitous & coincided (not coincidentally) w/ the “Europeanizing” of the league (granted, there are examples of flopping long before the migration of Europeans to the NBA, but it wasn’t being used nearly as much). I think more can be done in terms of fines after the games have ended & refs/the league get a chance to review it. But bottom line is it’s not as bad as it once was.

What I can’t imagine is “clobbering” anyone for it to the point there’s a chance they’ll get seriously injured.

And this is where terminology is relevant. To me, “clobbering” implies negligence, recklessness. It’s the difference between shoving a guy hard while he’s going for a lay-up & his feet are still on the floor or even if he’s off the floor & intentionally bodying up w/ him in mid-air, & clotheslining a guy while he’s in mid-air or putting your foot under him before he lands. It’s the difference between cracking a guy good in the ribs or abdomen w/ an elbow & cracking him around the neck or head.

Guys like Lambeer don’t belong in the league anymore. Besides the ethical reasons, guys just make too much money now. And I think Michael Jordan being what he was & knowing his value to the league & having the marketing appeal he had, he used that as leverage to take it out of the game. It’s no coincidence that the game has gotten “softer” as players’ monetary value has gone way up. And Jordan really took the game to that level, where’ve players are their own brands & enterprises.

Unless the NBA’s financial situation ever worsens to a degree where players don’t have the monetary value & leverage near what they have now, I can’t see a scenario where stuff like that makes it’s way back into the league. In the end, I think everyone wins except the dudes w/ minimal talent who can pretty much only make a living playing basketball by clobbering players, some of whom help pay a good % of their wages to begin w/.

I’m not in favor of extremely dirty play- however, the flopping and soft play is anathema. Perhaps in some ways it has gotten better as you said. If physical play won’t stop it league rules should- by not rewarding it or more strictly enforcing fines- perhaps even suspensions for repeat offenders

[mingus]

I understand what you’re saying, but imagine harden trying to play back then- if he tried to pull his ref baiting garbage a team like the pistons would clobber him and maybe he’d think twice about it

I can imagine this:

There’s only so much you can do in real-time to penalize & eliminate flopping. But the refs have done a better job of swallowing their whistles on that stuff than years ago when it became a ubiquitous & coincided (not coincidentally) w/ the “Europeanizing” of the league (granted, there are examples of flopping long before the migration of Europeans to the NBA, but it wasn’t being used nearly as much). I think more can be done in terms of fines after the games have ended & refs/the league get a chance to review it. But bottom line is it’s not as bad as it once was.

What I can’t imagine is “clobbering” anyone for it to the point there’s a chance they’ll get seriously injured.

And this is where terminology is relevant. To me, “clobbering” implies negligence, recklessness. It’s the difference between shoving a guy hard while he’s going for a lay-up & his feet are still on the floor or even if he’s off the floor & intentionally bodying up w/ him in mid-air, & clotheslining a guy while he’s in mid-air or putting your foot under him before he lands. It’s the difference between cracking a guy good in the ribs or abdomen w/ an elbow & cracking him around the neck or head.

Guys like Lambeer don’t belong in the league anymore. Besides the ethical reasons, guys just make too much money now. And I think Michael Jordan being what he was & knowing his value to the league & having the marketing appeal he had, he used that as leverage to take it out of the game. It’s no coincidence that the game has gotten “softer” as players’ monetary value has gone way up. And Jordan really took the game to that level, where’ve players are their own brands & enterprises.

Unless the NBA’s financial situation ever worsens to a degree where players don’t have the monetary value & leverage near what they have now, I can’t see a scenario where stuff like that makes it’s way back into the league. In the end, I think everyone wins except the dudes w/ minimal talent who can pretty much only make a living playing basketball by clobbering players, some of whom help pay a good % of their wages to begin w/.

I’m not in favor of extremely dirty play- however, the flopping and soft play is anathema. Perhaps in some ways it has gotten better as you said. If physical play won’t stop it league rules should- by not rewarding it or more strictly enforcing fines- perhaps even suspensions for repeat offenders

I agree. But also, another distinction has to be made. Which is, there’s a difference between selling a foul & flopping. I see some people not making this distinction.

When a player sells foul, a clear foul has already been committed & the player wants to make sure he brings attention to it so that it gets called.

Flopping, to me anyway, is when no foul has been committed & the player in question is straight up trying to get a call he hasn’t earned & therefore doesn’t deserve.