OT: Panic Buying. When Will it End?

[Courtside]

Anti-maskers take an all-or-nothing approach to this debate. If masks don't provide 100% protection to 100% of the population, they are useless.

I spoke to a hockey buddy...who happens to be an emergency room doctor here in the GTA. he is stunned by how many people believe that masks don’t work. He went on to say that they aren’t 100% effective....but they are particularly effective in “blocking” larger droplets

I really don’t get the anti mask people.

I get that there is a shortage .... and the doctors need them....but that’s a separate point

You realize those medical case studies are performed by Doctors and medical researchers right? At least as qualified or likely more qualified than your friend

You realize no one said they are not effective.

You are arguing a point that no one has made. We are talking about benefit of masking the general population. Based on MEDICAL CASE STUDIES, there is very little if any benefit (and in some cases worse). The argument was if it is worth the resources to do it.

They are very effective at stopping droplets from EXITING a persons mouth, not from getting in. That is what they are meant for. High risk people like HCW that are in close contact with these people wear them mainly to protect patients and each other. No one said it was not effective for sick people, HCW, or people in contact with at risk people.

Healthy people are talking about wearing them to prevent getting the virus and acting like it is significantly decreases there chances. A PRO mask study showed only a 6% effectiveness in reducing spread if 50% of people wear a mask 100% correct (no contamination, no increased face touching, nothing, even though that is not reality).

They do not stop droplets that are suspended in the air from entering through your eyes or getting on your body and IN CLINICAL STUDIES people are more likely to touch there face, which is can be worse than the protection it gives you. They help stop airborne droplets from getting into your mouth if worn correctly

AGAIN - wearing it correctly and with eye protection is of great benefit. Wearing by itself correctly is somewhat beneficial. Wearing it incorrectly which is happening often, is likely doing nothing for you and might be worse

Here are two additional things to consider...

1) These are all clinical studies that you're citing. They are not studies of use in the population in terms or measuring the spread of a virus. All we have for that is the kind of things I linked to from Japan, and the example cases of places that are more experienced in outbreaks that have decided that they are in fact effective and worth doing.

2) These clinical studies are not from the last few months. The fact is that surgical masks have largely changed since Dec with a key detail that a lot of people aren't even aware of. They used to be made with a middle filter layer that offered much less external protection and were mostly to keep things IN, as you have noted. What has changed since Dec and Jan is that most mask makers have switched that middle filter layer to a 95% equivalent material. There are hundreds of new factories making them and they all use this 95% layer, unless they are labeled specifically as "non-surgical" or "protection mask". This is one of the reasons why pricing jumped almost instantly, and now that this more expensive 95% material is straining the raw material factories, the pricing is creeping up further.

There needs to be new studies, really, since none target the purpose that we have been debating - how effective are they in terms of reducing spread, not only for a normal flu season, but also during the outbreak of a novel virus. If that ends up being 1% or 6% or 15% or 50%, it's going to be an important thing to know as part of our preparedness for not only the near future (next year or two as we continue to mitigate COVID) but also in the possibility of a future pandemic. It would be good to know if governments should or shouldn't stockpile these things.

So the masks have shifted in terms of purpose from one way protection, to two protection. It's why the CDC and many other authorities have shifted their guidelines to front line staff that in the absence of N95s, surgicals are a good alternate.

Let's make it three things, actually...

3) I mentioned before that I have been researching the making of these and in doing so, have opened up direct factory access to get a lot of this product here from China. I simply don't have the money to import a lot, sell it, get paid for it, turn that money into another import batch, sell it, get paid for it, and on and on. It's too slow and I am unable to help get the available materials to as many people as I can this way. I am basically hoping to become an order taker on behalf of the factories so that money and product goes directly between the two, so that the same amount spent gets more product to more people and there isn't time lost doing the buy and sell thing. If you, or anyone reading this is in contact with health care providers, first responders, nursing home staff, etc... PLEASE send me a PM so I can connect the people that need to be talking. I can access a weekly stock of approx 200K surgicals, 50K N95s, 10K face shields, protection suits, laser thermometers, and soon will also be making UV lighting for the disinfection of these products that allows them to be re-used many times, further extending the usable life of these limited supplies.

[anon2222]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this but I hope it will alert people to how severe this disease can be to others:

My father is a primary care physician on a small island in the Caribbean (90,000 is the population). He is 72 but has been diabetic and hypertensive for the last 6-7yrs or so. On the island they made a designated Covid-19 clinic where people who are experiencing symptoms can go there to be tested and further assessed. He put a sign in front of his clinic saying if you have the usual symptoms (fever, cough, shortness of breath etc...) to go the designated clinic. He even told his receptionist and health care aid to check the temperature of people before they enter. Of course some lie and say they are coming in because other problems. This virus is very infectious and more concerning is a large size of the population don't show the symptoms but can still spread it.

Anyways my mother calls me in the early hours of the morning (I live in Toronto) saying he has a high fever, sore throat and can barely breathe. Ambulance takes him to the hospital where he is now admitted on oxygen and given lasix (as he has fluid in the lungs) and tylenol. With his underlying conditions and that he is still labouring to breathe and almost certainly to be intubated I advised my mom to ask the doctor there to give him the trial of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and zinc (shown promise in Asia, France and now NYC). They think it is not needed at this point. Anyways I called a pharmacy (I'm a radiologist licensed in Canada and my home island so don't really prescribe medications much) and prescribed and they are going to try it tomorrow or the next day.

Please isolate, practice good hygiene, and follow the recommendations. It may be a loved one you end up affecting or somebody else's loved one. This virus is no joke.

[NinjaBro]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this but I hope it will alert people to how severe this disease can be to others:

My father is a primary care physician on a small island in the Caribbean (90,000 is the population). He is 72 but has been diabetic and hypertensive for the last 6-7yrs or so. On the island they made a designated Covid-19 clinic where people who are experiencing symptoms can go there to be tested and further assessed. He put a sign in front of his clinic saying if you have the usual symptoms (fever, cough, shortness of breath etc...) to go the designated clinic. He even told his receptionist and health care aid to check the temperature of people before they enter. Of course some lie and say they are coming in because other problems. This virus is very infectious and more concerning is a large size of the population don't show the symptoms but can still spread it.

Anyways my mother calls me in the early hours of the morning (I live in Toronto) saying he has a high fever, sore throat and can barely breathe. Ambulance takes him to the hospital where he is now admitted on oxygen and given lasix (as he has fluid in the lungs) and tylenol. With his underlying conditions and that he is still labouring to breathe and almost certainly to be intubated I advised my mom to ask the doctor there to give him the trial of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and zinc (shown promise in Asia, France and now NYC). They think it is not needed at this point. Anyways I called a pharmacy (I'm a radiologist licensed in Canada and my home island so don't really prescribe medications much) and prescribed and they are going to try it tomorrow or the next day.

Please isolate, practice good hygiene, and follow the recommendations. It may be a loved one you end up affecting or somebody else's loved one. This virus is no joke.

Good luck man, hope everything goes well with your father. Keep us updated.

[Johnny Bball]

Alphas

[CantStopTheRock]

I spoke to a hockey buddy...who happens to be an emergency room doctor here in the GTA. he is stunned by how many people believe that masks don’t work. He went on to say that they aren’t 100% effective....but they are particularly effective in “blocking” larger droplets

I really don’t get the anti mask people.

I get that there is a shortage .... and the doctors need them....but that’s a separate point

You realize those medical case studies are performed by Doctors and medical researchers right? At least as qualified or likely more qualified than your friend

You realize no one said they are not effective.

You are arguing a point that no one has made. We are talking about benefit of masking the general population. Based on MEDICAL CASE STUDIES, there is very little if any benefit (and in some cases worse). The argument was if it is worth the resources to do it.

They are very effective at stopping droplets from EXITING a persons mouth, not from getting in. That is what they are meant for. High risk people like HCW that are in close contact with these people wear them mainly to protect patients and each other. No one said it was not effective for sick people, HCW, or people in contact with at risk people.

Healthy people are talking about wearing them to prevent getting the virus and acting like it is significantly decreases there chances. A PRO mask study showed only a 6% effectiveness in reducing spread if 50% of people wear a mask 100% correct (no contamination, no increased face touching, nothing, even though that is not reality).

They do not stop droplets that are suspended in the air from entering through your eyes or getting on your body and IN CLINICAL STUDIES people are more likely to touch there face, which is can be worse than the protection it gives you. They help stop airborne droplets from getting into your mouth if worn correctly

AGAIN - wearing it correctly and with eye protection is of great benefit. Wearing by itself correctly is somewhat beneficial. Wearing it incorrectly which is happening often, is likely doing nothing for you and might be worse

Here are two additional things to consider...

1) These are all clinical studies that you're citing. They are not studies of use in the population in terms or measuring the spread of a virus. All we have for that is the kind of things I linked to from Japan, and the example cases of places that are more experienced in outbreaks that have decided that they are in fact effective and worth doing.

2) These clinical studies are not from the last few months. The fact is that surgical masks have largely changed since Dec with a key detail that a lot of people aren't even aware of. They used to be made with a middle filter layer that offered much less inbound protection and were mostly to keep things IN, as you have noted. What has changed since Dec is that most mask makers have switched that middle filter layer to a 95% equivalent material. This is one of the reasons why pricing jumped almost instantly, and now that this more expensive 95% material is straining the raw material factories, the pricing is creeping up further.

So the masks have shifted in terms of purpose from one way protection, to two protection. It's why the CDC and many other authorities have shifted their guidelines to front line staff that in the absence of N95s, surgicals are a good alternate.

Let's make it three things, actually.

I mentioned before that I have been researching the making of these and in doing so, have opened up direct factory access to get a lot of this product here from China. I simply don't have the money to import a lot, sell it, get paid for it, turn that money into another import batch, sell it, get paid for it, and on and on. It's too slow and I am unable to help get the available materials to as many people as I can this way. I am basically hoping to become an order taker on behalf of the factories so that money and product goes directly between the two, so that the same amount spent gets more product to more people and there isn't time lost doing the buy and sell thing. If you, or anyone reading this is in contact with health care providers, first responders, nursing home staff, etc... PLEASE send me a PM so I can connect the people that need to be talking. I can access a weekly stock of approx 200K surgicals, 50K N95s, 10K face shields, protection suits, laser thermometers, and soon will also be making UV lighting for the disinfection of these products that allows them to be re-used many times, further extending the usable life of these limited supplies.

Thank you for reading and posting valuable responses.

1) That may very well be true about a clinic vs real world. The point of those studies was more of a counterpoint of how people do not get the full effectiveness of a mask (Not like putting on a watch), ie a n95 mask vs a loose fitting surgical masks that showed similar results although in a lab there is a significant difference. That one study did show some benefit but that was also ignoring some important factors and again assumed correct usage, which trained clinical staff could not do in the biggest mask case study in North America at that time

2) Sorta ties into 1), but that study of a n95 vs a loose fitting masks provided the same effectiveness in a clinic. Which means 1) mask type in preventing a healthy person is not as important important as a lab suggests, 2) mask usage is not always correct and/or there is more hand to mouth/eye transmission

3) I want to commend you for your efforts on bringing in more supplies. I have donated everything I had except for a few masks in case I get sick or need to take something to my parents/grandparents. It is great to see people still putting others ahead of themselves when it looks like most people only care about themselves. My wife is one of those (and most of our friends) that relies on the unselfishness of people like you to step up however they can, so THANK YOU

[CantStopTheRock]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this but I hope it will alert people to how severe this disease can be to others:

My father is a primary care physician on a small island in the Caribbean (90,000 is the population). He is 72 but has been diabetic and hypertensive for the last 6-7yrs or so. On the island they made a designated Covid-19 clinic where people who are experiencing symptoms can go there to be tested and further assessed. He put a sign in front of his clinic saying if you have the usual symptoms (fever, cough, shortness of breath etc...) to go the designated clinic. He even told his receptionist and health care aid to check the temperature of people before they enter. Of course some lie and say they are coming in because other problems. This virus is very infectious and more concerning is a large size of the population don't show the symptoms but can still spread it.

Anyways my mother calls me in the early hours of the morning (I live in Toronto) saying he has a high fever, sore throat and can barely breathe. Ambulance takes him to the hospital where he is now admitted on oxygen and given lasix (as he has fluid in the lungs) and tylenol. With his underlying conditions and that he is still labouring to breathe and almost certainly to be intubated I advised my mom to ask the doctor there to give him the trial of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and zinc (shown promise in Asia, France and now NYC). They think it is not needed at this point. Anyways I called a pharmacy (I'm a radiologist licensed in Canada and my home island so don't really prescribe medications much) and prescribed and they are going to try it tomorrow or the next day.

Please isolate, practice good hygiene, and follow the recommendations. It may be a loved one you end up affecting or somebody else's loved one. This virus is no joke.

I wish you and your family the best and hope he is able to recover.

Unfortunately people lying about symptoms happens often (happened to my wife). I read an article about people boarding flights back home the last few days lying about symptoms just they can catch a flight back. It is truly a shame

[Courtside]

Thank you for reading and posting valuable responses.

1) That may very well be true about a clinic vs real world. The point of those studies was more of a counterpoint of how people do not get the full effectiveness of a mask (Not like putting on a watch), ie a n95 mask vs a loose fitting surgical masks that showed similar results although in a lab there is a significant difference. That one study did show some benefit but that was also ignoring some important factors and again assumed correct usage, which trained clinical staff could not do in the biggest mask case study in North America at that time

Just one point of clarification... when I made that "putting on a watch" comparison, it was not to illustrate how easy it was to put a mask on. It was to make the comparison of how touching stops after an initial adjustment period. Someone who never wears a watch will put one on and for the first while be aware it's there and adjust it, shake it into a different position, etc... But soon enough, they forget it's there and it becomes normal. In the case of mask wearing, it is of course true that someone who wears a mask will fiddle with it, or scratch what feels like an itch from sweat build up inside. But after wearing one for a while, this changes and eventually you are much less bothered by its existence and if you do get that itch, the habit becomes to scratch through the mask and not under it. The amount of face touching does go down greatly.

So the argument about not fitting or misuse is mostly applicable to the first time or occasional user. With ongoing or increased mask wearing - along with education about proper fitting - this becomes far more normalized and the desired intent of the mask becomes far more likely to be achieved, which in turn does far more to protect both the wearer and those that are near them.

[Double Bubble]

Alphas

is boredpanda.com your favourite website?

[Lord_Zedd]

Alert system putting to good use in Ontario.

Hopefully they do another alert when everyone is asleep for maximum effectiveness.

[GordanFreeman]

It will end when natural selection weeds out all the morons of our species, and those with genetics worth saving repopulate. Ironically situations such as this are nature’s way of trimming the fat from humanity’s genetics. If nothing else that will happen economically

I saw a woman in the grocery store yesterday who was shoving her cart around like the apocalypse was upon her, talking to herself in addition to random people in the store, screeching the wheels of her cart and literally just going in circles as if to say hello please commit me to a mental institution

I’m telling u guys not only is society ****ed but people are absolutely ****ed. Just imagine what will happen when a REAL crisis occurs. One that DOES disrupt the supply chain, energy sources, etc. Then watch these monkeys run around like chickens with their heads cut off. The majority of them are doomed if anything of the sort was to happen. U can’t fix stupid unfortunately, gotta breed them out and I hope it happens

What a heartless post. Do you have any relatives with down syndrome, psychological impairments, etc? Maybe that lady had psychological issue like schizophrenia or paranoia? Are you an advocate of eugenics btw?

could have just stopped at that first bit before the comma lol, its the same message... that I actually agree with. Society, as a whole, is stupid af.

?

[Jcity08]

Who needs toilet paper though.

#bidetgang

The cheaper models are selling out within minutes of being restocked. I read bidet startups are selling $500K-1M daily.

We might see a cultural shift away from toilet paper after this whole thing is over. We're too dependant on it and it's expensive as hell. I know I'll be joining #bidetgang. I didn't even know you could get bidet attachments in North America until I read this thread.

It's interesting for me to note as foreign born Canadian, being made fun of in the past because I wash up rather than wipe up when taking a dump and now suddenly the world is turning around to the idea. And those same people are talking to me like it's this amazing new concept.

I'm happy more people are joining the #bidetgang, the Umbrella is wide enough to fit everyone.

Viva la Revolución!

[CantStopTheRock]

Who needs toilet paper though.

#bidetgang

The cheaper models are selling out within minutes of being restocked. I read bidet startups are selling $500K-1M daily.

We might see a cultural shift away from toilet paper after this whole thing is over. We're too dependant on it and it's expensive as hell. I know I'll be joining #bidetgang. I didn't even know you could get bidet attachments in North America until I read this thread.

It's interesting for me to note as foreign born Canadian, being made fun of in the past because I wash up rather than wipe up when taking a dump and now suddenly the world is turning around to the idea. And those same people are talking to me like it's this amazing new concept.

I'm happy more people are joining the #bidetgang, the Umbrella is wide enough to fit everyone.

Viva la Revolución!

Same here. Some friends would come over my parents house and Had no idea what it was for, most thought it was a foot wash

[mcgrady_1]

Has anyone used the Filipino bidet?

When all else fails. TABO.

[Jcity08]

Has anyone used the Filipino bidet?

When all else fails. TABO.

I haven't used that specifically but I've used devices similar to it. They are good as well.

[CantStopTheRock]

Thank you for reading and posting valuable responses.

1) That may very well be true about a clinic vs real world. The point of those studies was more of a counterpoint of how people do not get the full effectiveness of a mask (Not like putting on a watch), ie a n95 mask vs a loose fitting surgical masks that showed similar results although in a lab there is a significant difference. That one study did show some benefit but that was also ignoring some important factors and again assumed correct usage, which trained clinical staff could not do in the biggest mask case study in North America at that time

Just one point of clarification... when I made that "putting on a watch" comparison, it was not to illustrate how easy it was to put a mask on. It was to make the comparison of how touching stops after an initial adjustment period. Someone who never wears a watch will put one on and for the first while be aware it's there and adjust it, shake it into a different position, etc... But soon enough, they forget it's there and it becomes normal. In the case of mask wearing, it is of course true that someone who wears a mask will fiddle with it, or scratch what feels like an itch from sweat build up inside. But after wearing one for a while, this changes and eventually you are much less bothered by its existence and if you do get that itch, the habit becomes to scratch through the mask and not under it. The amount of face touching does go down greatly.

So the argument about not fitting or misuse is mostly applicable to the first time or occasional user. With ongoing or increased mask wearing - along with education about proper fitting - this becomes far more normalized and the desired intent of the mask becomes far more likely to be achieved, which in turn does far more to protect both the wearer and those that are near them.

Yeah I knew what you meant when you initially said it, I maybe should have clarified for people that are jumping in.

But the point is still the same. People do not adjust to the mask or use it as correctly as you may think or have observed. I know from my experience going out lately it's been sort of disappointing what people are doing while wearing a mask (and in general).

That clinical study with people that are used to wearing masks and are trained to wear masks, still did not use them correctly.

[anon2222]

I'll update: my father's oxygen saturation levels reached to below 70%. He has been sedated and put on on an ventilator.But doctors in these third world countries do not seem to care as much. They wont even give him this new cocktail drug: yet. Stupid.

Be safe everyone on Raptors GM. We have been strong and enjoyed a great season last year and this year too but this virus ruined everything

[Courtside]

I'll update: my father's oxygen saturation levels reached to below 70%. He has been sedated and put on on an ventilator.But doctors in these third world countries do not seem to care as much. They wont even give him this new cocktail drug: yet. Stupid.

Be safe everyone on Raptors GM. We have been strong and enjoyed a great season last year and this year too but this virus ruined everything

The force of the board is behind you and pulling for your dad

[YelloC]

Who needs toilet paper though.

#bidetgang

The cheaper models are selling out within minutes of being restocked. I read bidet startups are selling $500K-1M daily.

We might see a cultural shift away from toilet paper after this whole thing is over. We're too dependant on it and it's expensive as hell. I know I'll be joining #bidetgang. I didn't even know you could get bidet attachments in North America until I read this thread.

It's interesting for me to note as foreign born Canadian, being made fun of in the past because I wash up rather than wipe up when taking a dump and now suddenly the world is turning around to the idea. And those same people are talking to me like it's this amazing new concept.

I'm happy more people are joining the #bidetgang, the Umbrella is wide enough to fit everyone.

Viva la Revolución!

I think you mean the Bumbrella.

[Westside Gunn]

Who needs toilet paper though.

#bidetgang

The cheaper models are selling out within minutes of being restocked. I read bidet startups are selling $500K-1M daily.

We might see a cultural shift away from toilet paper after this whole thing is over. We're too dependant on it and it's expensive as hell. I know I'll be joining #bidetgang. I didn't even know you could get bidet attachments in North America until I read this thread.

It's interesting for me to note as foreign born Canadian, being made fun of in the past because I wash up rather than wipe up when taking a dump and now suddenly the world is turning around to the idea. And those same people are talking to me like it's this amazing new concept.

I'm happy more people are joining the #bidetgang, the Umbrella is wide enough to fit everyone.

Viva la Revolución!

im not sure if its such a foreign concept. maybe in NA, but SE asia with the exception of China, most of Europe uses some kind of butt water spray in the bathrooms.

[Raps in 4]

Who needs toilet paper though.

#bidetgang

The cheaper models are selling out within minutes of being restocked. I read bidet startups are selling $500K-1M daily.

We might see a cultural shift away from toilet paper after this whole thing is over. We're too dependant on it and it's expensive as hell. I know I'll be joining #bidetgang. I didn't even know you could get bidet attachments in North America until I read this thread.

It's interesting for me to note as foreign born Canadian, being made fun of in the past because I wash up rather than wipe up when taking a dump and now suddenly the world is turning around to the idea. And those same people are talking to me like it's this amazing new concept.

I'm happy more people are joining the #bidetgang, the Umbrella is wide enough to fit everyone.

Viva la Revolución!

I was born in Europe, and they're everywhere over there. I've seen them a lot in Latin America too. The problem in North America is that unless you own a house or are building a new house, getting a bidet in there is extremely expensive.

I first learned about the toilet-bidet hybrids in middle school when one of my friends went to Japan, but I didn't think they'd ever be sold in Canada. I was shocked when people brought them up in this thread as I didn't know such a product existed here. We've come a long way.

Now if only ductless air conditioners could go mainstream here (you can technically get them now, but they cost $1000-2000, instead of the $100-200 they cost everywhere else in the world), we'd be all set.