Better Playoffs: 2012 LeBron vs 2016 LeBron

[No-more-rings]

If people are really boiling this down to the assumption that 12 Lebron couldn’t do what he did against the Warriors in 16, I don’t really know what else to say. And people continuously ignore that the Warriors clearly weren’t playing to full capacity by that point. First off, they just came off a grueling 7 game series against a surging OKC team, and then bogut goes down, Iggy becomes hobbled, Draymond misses a crucial game that they obviously don’t lose without him, Curry already likely had lingering ailments etc. These are facts and have been relitigated ad nauseam.

What was it exactly about 12 Lebron’s game that would’ve prevented him from doing something similar? Just because he didn’t get the chance to prove it doesn’t mean he couldn’t.

[No-more-rings]

I would pick 2016. The stats are basically even but the player IQ, poise and confidence he had in 2016 sets him apart (or in general, sets the second Cleveland run apart from the Miami one). His jumper was not great either year but more trustworthy in 2016, and I think in the Playoffs he was better defensively too.

It's an interesting comparison to be sure, pitting the first year of the two legendary 3 year runs.

One more thing here.

You say his jumper was more trustworthy in 2016. 2016 playoffs Lebron shot better from 3 and better at 3 feet inside, 2012 shot better at every other area on the court. These are statistical facts.

[KobesScarf]

Ranking Lebron Finals runs

2012


2015
2016


2013
2007
2018
2014
2017


2011

[Stan]

Ranking Lebron Finals runs

2012


2015
2016


2013
2007
2018
2014
2017


2011

In what universe is 2018 LeBron's 5th best Finals run? And all the way in the 3rd tier too I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense, and would love to see the justification for it

[KobesScarf]

In what universe is 2018 LeBron's 5th best Finals run? And all the way in the 3rd tier too I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense, and would love to see the justification for it

I guess it could he a little higher because Kevin Love sucked so Lebron was essentially playing by himself.The 3rd group is all very close. Still its at best 4th behind 12 15 and 16

[Dupp]

Also I misread this thread. Thought it was “ who was a better player” not “ who was better in the post season”

They are not quite the same thing

[No-more-rings]

Ranking Lebron Finals runs

2012


2015
2016


2013
2007
2018
2014
2017


2011

In what universe is 2018 LeBron's 5th best Finals run? And all the way in the 3rd tier too I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense, and would love to see the justification for it

In the universe where Lebron was a bad defender. I don’t know right off where i’d rank that run, but 5th is probably too high.

[Stan]

Ranking Lebron Finals runs

2012


2015
2016


2013
2007
2018
2014
2017


2011

In what universe is 2018 LeBron's 5th best Finals run? And all the way in the 3rd tier too I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense, and would love to see the justification for it

In the universe where Lebron was a bad defender. I don’t know right off where i’d rank that run, but 5th is probably too high.

I could not disagree more. He was out there averaging 34/9/9 for an entire playoff run, taking a team that had absolutely no business being there to the Finals, hitting multiple game winners, several 40 point games, even had a 50 point game in the Finals at Golden State. And you think 5th is too high

How anyone could've watched that playoff run and not been extremely impressed is honestly beyond me

[cheese318]

Both versions were great. But he beat the one of the best teams in NBA history in 2016 in the finals. Basically broke their will by making sure they didn’t make that team possibly the best ever by not winning the chip. Forced Dray to go cry in the parking lot and beg KD to be his bitch boi and come to GSW and get no accolades for winning twice.

I wonder how KD will be perceived if he fizzles out the rest of his career and never wins another title elsewhere and all he has is his cherry picked preformed title runs. Of course KD is allowed to do that and any player for that matter is but LBJ isn’t because has always have players next to him to win.

[No-more-rings]

In what universe is 2018 LeBron's 5th best Finals run? And all the way in the 3rd tier too I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense, and would love to see the justification for it

In the universe where Lebron was a bad defender. I don’t know right off where i’d rank that run, but 5th is probably too high.

I could not disagree more. He was out there averaging 34/9/9 for an entire playoff run, taking a team that had absolutely no business being there to the Finals, hitting multiple game winners, several 40 point games, even had a 50 point game in the Finals at Golden State. And you think 5th is too high

How anyone could've watched that playoff run and not been extremely impressed is honestly beyond me

Where did anyone say it wasn’t impressive? We’re comparing Lebron to himself, not to other players. Lebron is a goat level player and had what 8 or 9 trips to the finals? Saying he might’ve had 5 or so runs better isn’t an insult. Aside from that you’re looking at box scores too much and not enough context. Which isn’t uncommon, people here do it all the time. It’s fair if you said it was his best offensive run, but defensively he’s been much better.

[Dupp]

Ranking Lebron Finals runs

2012


2015
2016


2013
2007
2018
2014
2017





2011

In what universe is 2018 LeBron's 5th best Finals run? And all the way in the 3rd tier too I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense, and would love to see the justification for it

In the universe where Lebron was a bad defender. I don’t know right off where i’d rank that run, but 5th is probably too high.

I still don’t understand those rankings. Everything else aside why is 2007 where it is? I don’t see how any Crete is makes sense having that there.

[ardee]

I would pick 2016. The stats are basically even but the player IQ, poise and confidence he had in 2016 sets him apart (or in general, sets the second Cleveland run apart from the Miami one). His jumper was not great either year but more trustworthy in 2016, and I think in the Playoffs he was better defensively too.

It's an interesting comparison to be sure, pitting the first year of the two legendary 3 year runs.

One more thing here.

You say his jumper was more trustworthy in 2016. 2016 playoffs Lebron shot better from 3 and better at 3 feet inside, 2012 shot better at every other area on the court. These are statistical facts.

I just checked... 2016 LeBron was better from 16-23 and the 3 point line and beyond. That is fairly indicative of being the better shooter IMO.

[Homer38]

Ranking Lebron Finals runs

2012


2015
2016


2013
2007
2018
2014
2017


2011

In what universe is 2018 LeBron's 5th best Finals run? And all the way in the 3rd tier too I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense, and would love to see the justification for it

2017 is also too low.2017 is at least in the top 4 in this list with 2012,2016 and 2018.

[E-Balla]

We usually assume peak as regular season + playoffs. But if we limit the time window even further, 2012 playoffs is the ultimate peak of the player.

Yep. The 2009 playoffs was better but based on LeBron hitting more shots than ever before and generally being lucky enough to hit 47% of his midrange shots. In 2012 he had no jumper but dominated anyway.

Given the fact that he had no jumper and dominated wouldn't you want to pick the version of him that had a jumper and still dominated?

LeBron's ultimate peak if you look at it in a more condensed way is the 2018 Playoffs until the hand injury at the end of game 1. If you include the entire Finals, I would probably give it to the 2017 Playoffs then. What he was capable of doing by that point was well beyond 2012.

I mean I'm not comparing his 2012 postseason to his 2009 one now am I?

We're talking about LeBron's ultimate peak as a player and that's the best he's ever played overall. 2018 and 2017 LeBron can't defend like 2012 LeBron. There's tons of things 2012 LeBron could do that be couldn't do anymore by 2017 and 2018.

[No-more-rings]

In what universe is 2018 LeBron's 5th best Finals run? And all the way in the 3rd tier too I'm sorry, that makes absolutely no sense, and would love to see the justification for it

In the universe where Lebron was a bad defender. I don’t know right off where i’d rank that run, but 5th is probably too high.

I still don’t understand those rankings. Everything else aside why is 2007 where it is? I don’t see how any Crete is makes sense having that there.

I didn’t put any thought into his list. I definitely wouldn’t have 2015 that high, i know that much.

[No-more-rings]

I would pick 2016. The stats are basically even but the player IQ, poise and confidence he had in 2016 sets him apart (or in general, sets the second Cleveland run apart from the Miami one). His jumper was not great either year but more trustworthy in 2016, and I think in the Playoffs he was better defensively too.

It's an interesting comparison to be sure, pitting the first year of the two legendary 3 year runs.

One more thing here.

You say his jumper was more trustworthy in 2016. 2016 playoffs Lebron shot better from 3 and better at 3 feet inside, 2012 shot better at every other area on the court. These are statistical facts.

I just checked... 2016 LeBron was better from 16-23 and the 3 point line and beyond. That is fairly indicative of being the better shooter IMO.

That range must’ve been an oversight on my part. Still though, how much is it worth when?..

1. Lebron scored on comparable efficiency overall with a medium volume gap- 30.3 ppg on +4.9 relative ts% vs 26.3 ppg on +4.4 relative ts%

2. Lebron seemed to be able to hit jumpers when it really mattered.

I mean it’s not like 2015 where was complete crap shooting outside of 3 feet.

[Baski]

I would pick 2016. The stats are basically even but the player IQ, poise and confidence he had in 2016 sets him apart (or in general, sets the second Cleveland run apart from the Miami one). His jumper was not great either year but more trustworthy in 2016, and I think in the Playoffs he was better defensively too.

It's an interesting comparison to be sure, pitting the first year of the two legendary 3 year runs.

Again, I don’t get what this “more poise and confidence” is based on?

I watched both runs. Maybe not every game, but the bulk of it and certainly the important games. Lebron showed elite confidence in 2012 and if game 6 vs Boston and beating a great OKC team in 5 games doesn’t prove this I don’t know what does?

It is getting overused to the point where Lebron's 2016-18 is getting a tad overrated. Sometimes I feel like people think Lebron had Westbrook's IQ in his peak athlete days the way they talk about his 2nd Cavs stint. 2012 Lebron was a man on a mission and a flat out better player, and honestly I'd take that and the better athleticism/motor over whatever marginal mental improvement he'd made in the 4 years since then.
Too much credit is being given to his mental growth and not enough to his actual improvement in skills.

[ardee]

I would pick 2016. The stats are basically even but the player IQ, poise and confidence he had in 2016 sets him apart (or in general, sets the second Cleveland run apart from the Miami one). His jumper was not great either year but more trustworthy in 2016, and I think in the Playoffs he was better defensively too.

It's an interesting comparison to be sure, pitting the first year of the two legendary 3 year runs.

Again, I don’t get what this “more poise and confidence” is based on?

I watched both runs. Maybe not every game, but the bulk of it and certainly the important games. Lebron showed elite confidence in 2012 and if game 6 vs Boston and beating a great OKC team in 5 games doesn’t prove this I don’t know what does?

It is getting overused to the point where Lebron's 2016-18 is getting a tad overrated. Sometimes I feel like people think Lebron had Westbrook's IQ in his peak athlete days the way they talk about his 2nd Cavs stint. 2012 Lebron was a man on a mission and a flat out better player, and honestly I'd take that and the better athleticism/motor over whatever marginal mental improvement he'd made in the 4 years since then.
Too much credit is being given to his mental growth and not enough to his actual improvement in skills.

His skills have improved too, considerably, especially in 2017 and 2018. Not that he was bad at anything before, but the years of experience added up and I feel like out of 100 he was 1-3 points better on every skill based action... from post game to passing to handling to 3s. And I think calling mental improvement "marginal" is super unfair, his ability to control every aspect of games was well beyond what we saw in the Miami years.

I think if you put 2017 LeBron in the 2014 Finals he gives the Spurs a much harder fight. They still lose but it's certainly not a farce.

I think 2016 is properly rated but 2017 and 2018 are underrated by most.

[RCM88x]

Imo:

2012
2016
2018
2017

2014
2013
2015

2011

Really hard to rank the top 4, honestly I can see an argument for any of them. He was probably playing the best overall in 2018, but there were a number of duds in that run. 2017 was pretty great until that G3 against Boston which is such a crazy outlier. 2016 he was better as the playoffs went on, his first two series really weren't that special, the last three games against GS really elevated the run obviously. 2012 is interesting, he was a pretty bad outside shooter for most of that run but was certainly the most consistent defensively. I'd also say there was significantly more pressure on him in 2012 than any other season, his G6 against Boston is obviously an ATG performance, but that G4 against Indiana was also world class.

If I were to pick a better overall run it would be 2012, more pressure, more consistency. But yeah I think you can go any way you want with those top 4 seasons.

[Baski]

His skills have improved too, considerably, especially in 2017 and 2018. Not that he was bad at anything before, but the years of experience added up and I feel like out of 100 he was 1-3 points better on every skill based action... from post game to passing to handling to 3s.

Totally agree. And I think this is what gets sort of forgotten when we discuss his improvement. Well except for 3pt shooting. He sucked in 2012. I think his improvement in 3pt shooting has been massive, even though the numbers don't seem to reflect that.

And I think calling mental improvement "marginal" is super unfair, his ability to control every aspect of games was well beyond what we saw in the Miami years.

I think it's fair because I'm insinuating his BBIQ was already sky high in 2009, let alone 2012, such that whatever IQ-related feats he's showing now have more to do with the above mentioned improvement in skills and team build. Experience always helps, especially when you have as much as Lebron, but not to the degree that 2012 Lebron does worse than 2016 in the same situation. Lebron's unfazability is because he now has the skills to counter all defensive gameplans and thus more confidence. Back in the early days when he'd have the occasional freeze moment when left in space, it was because he had no counter and thus lowered confidence. Heck even now we see him look lost when his jumper ghosts him. I personally don't think there's anything Lebron from 2016-now is doing that you couldn't ask 2012 Lebron to do given the exact same skillset and team composition.

I think if you put 2017 LeBron in the 2014 Finals he gives the Spurs a much harder fight. They still lose but it's certainly not a farce.

This may be true, but I think 2014 Lebron is much closer to 2017 as a player than 2012 (better than both)
Actually I doubt he'd make much of a difference since it was on defense that they lost the series and 2017 Finals Lebron was doing nothing to help on that end. I dunno if he would improve their offense much at all, considering he'd still be passing to multiple zombies instead of the shooters on the 2017 Cavs.