OT: Panic Buying. When Will it End?

[rocky_da_best]

CP24 guest doctor today:

Q1: Answers a question about transmission. Talks about how asymptomatic and presymptomatic people are still contagious.

Q2: Gets asked about masks. Says there is a debate, but he doesn't recommend wearing them as per official public health guidelines (people can wear them if they want to though) as they only offer a "sliver of protection" (without ever mentioning they keep asymptomatic or presymptomatic people from infecting others...).

Q3: Third question leads into a discussion on PPE and he mentions how important it is for HCWs to have surgical masks (not even N95) to protect themselves from the virus.

I had to make sure I wasn't watching an Onion skit.

That’s outrageous

People like this have blood on their hands

Not sure why you think that is skit worthy or people deserve to have blood on their hands. If people social distance there is very little risk, if any, with people getting infected from asymptomatic or presymptomatic person where a mask would have a factor.

That doesn't mean they are not contagious, it is just the risk is negligible if social distancing

It is important to HCW because they cannot social distance. I am sure he would say the same thing if it is a regular person that could not practice social distancing

What kills me is almost every pro mask article is using case studies of masking symptomatic people to prove their point of masking everyone.

Including the article Nox posted a couple pages back (pro mask everyone). Yet, looking at the case study, surprise the journalist completely ignored all this

"A subset of participants (72/246, 29%) did not cough at all during at least one exhaled breath collection, including 37/147 (25%) during the without-mask and 42/148 (28%) during the with-mask breath collection. In this subset for coronavirus (n = 4), we did not detect any virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols from any participants."

"our study only included symptomatic individuals and common coronaviruses RNA was not identified from respiratory droplets or aerosols of the small number of infected individuals who did not cough"

"Given the high collection efficiency of the machine22, and given that each exhaled breath collection was done for 30 minutes, this might imply that prolonged close contact would be required for transmission to occur"


So very limited spread with someone breathing. A person sneezing and coughing are already told to cover up or better yet stay home. So where is all this risk if people social distance?

It is like telling someone who is sitting in the shade (social distancing) how damaging the sun is and referencing a case study on life guards and sunscreen usage and argue they are at risk. Then going on and complaining about a doctor saying if you are in the sun (at risk no social distancing, ie. HCW) you should wear it, but if you are in the shade (social distancing, no risk) you don't need it. That is not contradictory nor is it untruthful.

Do asymptomatic people not go grocery shopping? Of course if everyone wore a mask we'd be better off. But the reality is that there are nurses out there without them on the front lines and our government doesn't have masks for them. Not only that, they don't let them bring their own from home.

[Kevin Willis]

Why dont they just lockdown the frigggin country. These projections are scary, do something FFS

Those projections have a wide variance. It's value is limited. It's like having a stock and an analyst says under x conditions it can go up 5 times but under y condition it can go up 50%. It's nice to know it will go up but the outcomes have too wide a variance.

[steamed hams]

Still can't believe our clown government is still not recommending wearing masks.

[Johnny Bball]

Did those mofos down south literally grab pallets full of millions of N95 masks destined for France and Canada, outbid on them right on the airport tarmac, and send them to the States?

A huge shipment actually landed in Quebec, millions of masks ready to be distributed, and then noooope, they got right back on the plane and headed to Ohio.

Unbelievable, and our PM acts on national TV as if he didn't know much about it.

They also hijacked N95 masks destined to Brazil in the last minute.

To be fair, France had no idea either until it was too late.

Yep. It's not much you can do about that except build your own local masks which the government is try to do. Go home grown. Can't see how Trudeau could predict or know about a hijacking until after the fact.

The worst part, some Canadian governments and agencies made deals with 3M to provide these and paid fifteen years ago during SARS. Basically like insurance and they would provide them during emergency. The US was too stupid to do that, so now they just hijack shipments. Pretty infuriating.

[seanbig]

But what about scarves

But what about scarves

[Johnny Bball]

What is a good price for a mask? Want to know what's realistic or gauging - I saw a place selling a regular, non-N95 mask, for $50 - is that good?

Thats the price of a north respirator or 3M half-face silicon respirator with P100 filters.

[omar36]

Still can't believe our clown government is still not recommending wearing masks.

its clear theres a shortage and it should be given to those that actually need it. a mask might help but its not like wearing a mask will protect u moreso then constatnly wasking hands/ disinfecting ur groceries/stuff u bring outside.

[VicG]

Really interesting data here:

https://www.kflaphi.ca/aces-pandemic-tracker/

Tracks hospital admissions based on keywords of symptoms, incl CoVid. Can anyone make sense of this? It looks like the # of admissions have actually gone down from previous years.

[VicG]

Will be interesting as currently it is peaking, but not by a crazy amount. In Toronto the running average currently is almost identical to historical figure.

[CantStopTheRock]

That’s outrageous

People like this have blood on their hands

Not sure why you think that is skit worthy or people deserve to have blood on their hands. If people social distance there is very little risk, if any, with people getting infected from asymptomatic or presymptomatic person where a mask would have a factor.

That doesn't mean they are not contagious, it is just the risk is negligible if social distancing

It is important to HCW because they cannot social distance. I am sure he would say the same thing if it is a regular person that could not practice social distancing

What kills me is almost every pro mask article is using case studies of masking symptomatic people to prove their point of masking everyone.

Including the article Nox posted a couple pages back (pro mask everyone). Yet, looking at the case study, surprise the journalist completely ignored all this

"A subset of participants (72/246, 29%) did not cough at all during at least one exhaled breath collection, including 37/147 (25%) during the without-mask and 42/148 (28%) during the with-mask breath collection. In this subset for coronavirus (n = 4), we did not detect any virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols from any participants."

"our study only included symptomatic individuals and common coronaviruses RNA was not identified from respiratory droplets or aerosols of the small number of infected individuals who did not cough"

"Given the high collection efficiency of the machine22, and given that each exhaled breath collection was done for 30 minutes, this might imply that prolonged close contact would be required for transmission to occur"


So very limited spread with someone breathing. A person sneezing and coughing are already told to cover up or better yet stay home. So where is all this risk if people social distance?

It is like telling someone who is sitting in the shade (social distancing) how damaging the sun is and referencing a case study on life guards and sunscreen usage and argue they are at risk. Then going on and complaining about a doctor saying if you are in the sun (at risk no social distancing, ie. HCW) you should wear it, but if you are in the shade (social distancing, no risk) you don't need it. That is not contradictory nor is it untruthful.

Do asymptomatic people not go grocery shopping? Of course if everyone wore a mask we'd be better off. But the reality is that there are nurses out there without them on the front lines and our government doesn't have masks for them. Not only that, they don't let them bring their own from home.

You should still be able to distance yourself enough at a grocery store that there is little, if any, risk. If not they should be masking people. Which is something that will likely need to be done when things start getting back to normal especially mass transit.

Of course if everyone wore a mask we'd be better off? Well that's a lot of resources for something that has essentially no effect if we just social distance. Why stop there, everyone should get goggles, gowns and gloves. That must be best since HCW wear it. Because public life is exactly like working in health care like some people seem to think around here.

I don't even care at this point if people want to wear masks, but the making doctors seem like villians because of what was posted above is pathetic. Blood on your hands? what a joke. I hope you don't get sick because that Satan worshipper might be the one saving your life.

[steamed hams]

Still can't believe our clown government is still not recommending wearing masks.

its clear theres a shortage and it should be given to those that actually need it. a mask might help but its not like wearing a mask will protect u moreso then constatnly wasking hands/ disinfecting ur groceries/stuff u bring outside.

I know there is a shortage, but not having masks for civilians is dumb. The fact that the government is worried that hospitals won't have enough for hospital workers is so dumb because the two supply lines for random joes and hospital shouldn't even be the same in the first place wtf! Whatever they're doing, they need to double rate of production or procurement of masks. Canada is literally on the same trajectory as the USA per capita, and the top doctors are still ignoring what successful countries are doing. Wearing masks isn't just necessarily protecting yourself, it's also to stop asymptomatic people from outwardly spreading it to others even though they "feel" they're not sick. Masks are no DOUBT a large component of keeping numbers down, anyone saying otherwise is delusional.

Put it this way, if you see each component of prevention as a five person defense, not wearing masks is like someone not rotating. It doesn't matter what the other 4 people are doing, that single person not rotating will allow the offense to score.

[omar36]

Still can't believe our clown government is still not recommending wearing masks.

its clear theres a shortage and it should be given to those that actually need it. a mask might help but its not like wearing a mask will protect u moreso then constatnly wasking hands/ disinfecting ur groceries/stuff u bring outside.

I know there is a shortage, but not having masks for civilians is dumb. The fact that the government is worried that hospitals won't have enough for hospital workers is so dumb because the two supply lines for random joes and hospital shouldn't even be the same in the first place wtf! Whatever they're doing, they need to double rate of production or procurement of masks. Canada is literally on the same trajectory as the USA per capita, and the top doctors are still ignoring what successful countries are doing. Wearing masks isn't just necessarily protecting yourself, it's also to stop asymptomatic people from outwardly spreading it to others even though they "feel" they're not sick. Masks are no DOUBT a large component of keeping numbers down, anyone saying otherwise is delusional.

Put it this way, if you see each component of prevention as a five person defense, not wearing masks is like someone not rotating. It doesn't matter what the other 4 people are doing, that single person not rotating will allow the offense to score.

the only successful country is south korea and ur right that masks helped alot but i argue its the fact they are testing and able to get results which is prob the biggest thing. ontario is so far behind its insance.

ppl using masks but not follwing other guidelines like washing hands/disinfecting stuff u bring in ur home/washing ur clothes isnt helping. masks are preventing the spread but people not doing the other stuff makes them pointless

Personally i dont get how theres 50 million masks that ontario has that are expired. Why not jsut let regular ppl who go out for groceries use em, better then nothing. i have no clue what makes a mask expired but surely they can proivde more cover then nothing

[seanbig]

But what about scarves but what about scarves

Just got a 3m respirator at hone depot one for $70 and 40 for another one

P95 filters were 25 for two sets

Will be my emergency if n95 runs out in the hospitals

[VicG]

Not sure why you think that is skit worthy or people deserve to have blood on their hands. If people social distance there is very little risk, if any, with people getting infected from asymptomatic or presymptomatic person where a mask would have a factor.

That doesn't mean they are not contagious, it is just the risk is negligible if social distancing

It is important to HCW because they cannot social distance. I am sure he would say the same thing if it is a regular person that could not practice social distancing

What kills me is almost every pro mask article is using case studies of masking symptomatic people to prove their point of masking everyone.

Including the article Nox posted a couple pages back (pro mask everyone). Yet, looking at the case study, surprise the journalist completely ignored all this

"A subset of participants (72/246, 29%) did not cough at all during at least one exhaled breath collection, including 37/147 (25%) during the without-mask and 42/148 (28%) during the with-mask breath collection. In this subset for coronavirus (n = 4), we did not detect any virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols from any participants."

"our study only included symptomatic individuals and common coronaviruses RNA was not identified from respiratory droplets or aerosols of the small number of infected individuals who did not cough"

"Given the high collection efficiency of the machine22, and given that each exhaled breath collection was done for 30 minutes, this might imply that prolonged close contact would be required for transmission to occur"


So very limited spread with someone breathing. A person sneezing and coughing are already told to cover up or better yet stay home. So where is all this risk if people social distance?

It is like telling someone who is sitting in the shade (social distancing) how damaging the sun is and referencing a case study on life guards and sunscreen usage and argue they are at risk. Then going on and complaining about a doctor saying if you are in the sun (at risk no social distancing, ie. HCW) you should wear it, but if you are in the shade (social distancing, no risk) you don't need it. That is not contradictory nor is it untruthful.

Do asymptomatic people not go grocery shopping? Of course if everyone wore a mask we'd be better off. But the reality is that there are nurses out there without them on the front lines and our government doesn't have masks for them. Not only that, they don't let them bring their own from home.

You should still be able to distance yourself enough at a grocery store that there is little, if any, risk. If not they should be masking people. Which is something that will likely need to be done when things start getting back to normal especially mass transit.

Of course if everyone wore a mask we'd be better off? Well that's a lot of resources for something that has essentially no effect if we just social distance. Why stop there, everyone should get goggles, gowns and gloves. That must be best since HCW wear it. Because public life is exactly like working in health care like some people seem to think around here.

I don't even care at this point if people want to wear masks, but the making doctors seem like villians because of what was posted above is pathetic. Blood on your hands? what a joke. I hope you don't get sick because that Satan worshipper might be the one saving your life.

Well said! It's been really fascinating to wash the group think stuff wash over people day after day.

In the last few days it's been masks, and today people are using the province's estimate of 18-24 months to imply that we will all be isolated at home for two years SMH.

Agreed too that when we start going back to our offices/schools in a few months, masks will likely be part of everyday life for a while. With the state of the TTC pre-CoVid, there is no other way to do it.

[jrask]

UPDATE:

C.D.C. says all Americans should wear masks (cloth)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/world/coronavirus-news-updates.html

[VicG]

Have you guys been following the Toronto-specific numbers?

It's really fascinating to track because the province and city don't provide day to day data. So you got to search a bit to see what happened in the last week.

Pretty interesting stuff. Toronto is under 1000 cases right now (with not much of a backlog left as per the province's data).

We have 986 cases. We are about 20% of the ON population. Right now the Toronto cases represent 30% (of the overall 3,255), so over what one would project statistically, but I would argue it may make sense given our population and density.

However, last Friday, Toronto had 457 of the 967 cases in Ontario (https://www.blogto.com/city/2020/03/toronto-confirms-118-new-cases-covid-19-city/) (https://www.blogto.com/city/2020/03/ontario-announces-135-new-cases-covid-19-bringing-provincial-total-967/).

That's 47%. So the relative % has decreased a lot in the last week. From 47% to 30%.

Also, it took about a week for the Toronto cases to double.

Someone is surely better informed than me in statistics and epidemiology, but to me this is not that bad, no?

The unfortunate thing is the deaths have tripled in that time. 4 to 13.

[CantStopTheRock]

UPDATE:

C.D.C. says all Americans should wear masks (cloth)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/world/coronavirus-news-updates.html

Yeah not misleading at all.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html

In light of this new evidence, CDC recommends wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain (e.g., grocery stores and pharmacies) especially in areas of significant community-based transmission

[VicG]

UPDATE:

C.D.C. says all Americans should wear masks (cloth)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/world/coronavirus-news-updates.html

Yeah not misleading at all. It says where you can't social distance especially high transmission areas

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html

The media has been absolutely nuts with this pandemic. Every headline is click bait. I just read a tweet from Cynthia Mulligan of CityTV that literally says "Dr. Peter Donnelly who is the CEO of Public Health says Ontario is looking like it is on the path of the US. "

It is CRAZY. Mis-information everywhere and using fear to modify people's behaviour. Maybe the ends justify means but this constant fear-mongering is nuts.

[CantStopTheRock]

UPDATE:

C.D.C. says all Americans should wear masks (cloth)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/world/coronavirus-news-updates.html

Yeah not misleading at all. It says where you can't social distance especially high transmission areas

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html

The media has been absolutely nuts with this pandemic. Every headline is click bait. I just read a tweet from Cynthia Mulligan of CityTV that literally says "Dr. Peter Donnelly who is the CEO of Public Health says Ontario is looking like it is on the path of the US. "

It is CRAZY. Mis-information everywhere and using fear to modify people's behaviour. Maybe the ends justify means but this constant fear-mongering is nuts.

It's pretty sad considering the situation the world is in. You would think maybe they would just keep people informed for safety reasons, keeping people calm, etc. But clicks is what is needed so they just write whatever they want. I never thought it was this bad but most articles I have read have been absolute junk

[6ixSideSniper]

UPDATE:

C.D.C. says all Americans should wear masks (cloth)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/world/coronavirus-news-updates.html

Yeah not misleading at all.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html

In light of this new evidence, CDC recommends wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain (e.g., grocery stores and pharmacies) especially in areas of significant community-based transmission

How was that misleading?

You’re constantly calling everyone pathetic, but the most pathetic person is you. I’m not sure how someone can get their panties so far up their ass over other people wearing face masks. You should be happy, if anything it does you a favour if everyone decided to wear one.