OT: Democratic Primary Thread

[Capn'O]

As for the movement itself - it needs to drop the cult of personality with Sanders and focus on the rank and file of government. Democratic leadership has not been ideological for a long time. Get a quorum of progressives in Congress and a Joe Biden will go left because he can and pragmatism forces him that way.

[Pointgod]

Well, this is a beautiful example of the biased news you post that I mentioned earlier. This is basically Fox News for the progressive left

They are even starting to turn on Bernie. For shame.

If some progressives want to take their ball and go home, that is 100% their right. That's how a democracy works.

It's just a strange position to take to feel entitled to all the policy changes that Bernie championed when an overwhelming majority of people did not vote for Bernie or were swayed by his policy.

I like Bernie Sanders but some of his supporters are the absolute worst.

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The Krystal Ball tweet is patently absurd.

The other two I can understand, even if that Kyle Kulinski guy is a bit of a tool.

I’m not sure if you’re aware but Brianna Greyjoy is Bernie’s campaign manager. The same person that would be demanding that Democrats rightly fall in line if Bernie was the presumptive nominee is not supporting the presumptive nominee. These aren’t examples of random internet commentators, these are all high profile Sanders supporters that would be screaming that Democrats need to get behind Sanders are now advocating for not voting for the Democrat or staying home. So much for any type of unity message.

[Pointgod]

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The last tweet is fair. A large base of Bernie's supporters wanted those things. If Biden isn't offering those, why would they vote for him if they are voting on policy?

I know it this continues to surprise some, but beating Trump is not the #1 priority for A LOT of citizens. Some rank policy higher. Lot of Americans don't identify with a party, so they aren't just going to vote for Biden just to beat Trump or because Bernie told them to.

This tweet is from one of Sander’s campaign managers. For people who talk about unity and supporting the Democratic candidate, it’s funny how the story changes when Sanders is not the front runner. The Sanders wing of the party have a lot more chance of getting their policies passed in a Democratic controlled Congress and majority left leaning Supreme Court.

Serious question. So let’s assume Sanders supporters don’t vote for Biden in 2020 and Trump wins again. Let’s assume turnout from moderates, independents and anti Trump Republicans in support of Biden is up but the Sanders vote is what loses the presidency. How do you see Progressive policies being passed when Trump and Republicans keep the Presidency, Senate and the Supreme Court becomes 6-3 or 7-2 Conservative? What’s the path forward to get Progressive President, Senate and Congress after at least 4 more years of Republican rule?

[Stannis]

Serious question. So let’s assume Sanders supporters don’t vote for Biden in 2020 and Trump wins again. Let’s assume turnout from moderates, independents and anti Trump Republicans in support of Biden is upbut the Sanders vote is what loses the presidency. How do you see Progressive policies being passed when Trump and Republicans keep the Presidency, Senate and the Supreme Court becomes 6-3 or 7-2 Conservative? What’s the path forward to get Progressive President, Senate and Congress after at least 4 more years of Republican rule?

First of all that won't happen lol. Stop trying to lay the groundwork for that excuse if Biden gets defeated. You always go to that for Hillary's humiliating 2016 loss and are already thinking about that for 2020.

In this scenario, if Biden manages to get independent voters, he will likely come out with more than enough Bernie votes too.

Anyways, Biden has flat out said he will not do M4A. Lot of Bernie supporters hold that close. I can't blame voters wanting M4A not voting for Biden, because there's no chance that happens with him as president.

Biden has already said he's trying to find a middle ground between for climate change. Most climate change activists don't believe in a middle ground

Having a republican president didn't stop the the surge of progressive politicians we have seen in the few years couple years.

[Kampuchea]

With Sanders gone, is anybody moving over to the Green Party? The most progressive option

[GONYK]

I like Bernie Sanders but some of his supporters are the absolute worst.

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The Krystal Ball tweet is patently absurd.

The other two I can understand, even if that Kyle Kulinski guy is a bit of a tool.

I’m not sure if you’re aware but Brianna Greyjoy is Bernie’s campaign manager. The same person that would be demanding that Democrats rightly fall in line if Bernie was the presumptive nominee is not supporting the presumptive nominee. These aren’t examples of random internet commentators, these are all high profile Sanders supporters that would be screaming that Democrats need to get behind Sanders are now advocating for not voting for the Democrat or staying home. So much for any type of unity message.

I'm aware of who Greyjoy is, and why her saying that is hypocritical. I'm saying that I understand why some Bernie supporters would feel that way.

People are going to grieve their candidate and then make a choice. Things are raw right now.

[Capn'O]

With Sanders gone, is anybody moving over to the Green Party? The most progressive option

That chart is pure, unadulterated bullchit.

Don't have time to go through point by point but the Greens' stance of "look - those two are exactly the same because I said so in a chart" is just so lazy. No climate action? Lol. One guy denies climate change is happening to begin with while the other gets a B+ on the environment from Greenpeace. And you can go down that list.

But oh yes, me with no political experience or track record will make the US 100% clean by 2030 because... um, I said so and I've never had to get my hands dirty in my life. Sorry and this isn't directed at you but the candidate... but FOH!

[HarthorneWingo]

What I keep going back to is Bush winning 2004. I felt everyone hated him. But he still won.

I feel the same will happen in 2020. Americans usually don't like change during hard times.

Because we ran another clown who they shoved down our throats, John Kerry, just like Biden this time.

I’m beginning to buy into this theory that establishment Democrats really don’t care that much about winning elections just so long as they, the true power brokers, remain “in the game.”

[HarthorneWingo]

Obama picked Biden as his VP because he wanted to appeal to conservatives! smh

[HarthorneWingo]

With Sanders gone, is anybody moving over to the Green Party? The most progressive option

That chart is pure, unadulterated bullchit.

Don't have time to go through point by point but the Greens' stance of "look - those two are exactly the same because I said so in a chart" is just so lazy. No climate action? Lol. One guy denies climate change is happening to begin with while the other gets a B+ on the environment from Greenpeace. And you can go down that list.

But oh yes, me with no political experience or track record will make the US 100% clean by 2030 because... um, I said so and I've never had to get my hands dirty in my life. Sorry and this isn't directed at you but the candidate... but FOH!

There are big differences but that chart is not a great way of showing it. It's obviously designed to gain some enthusiasm which is commendable but not the basis for an intellectual debate.

[Stannis]

With Sanders gone, is anybody moving over to the Green Party? The most progressive option

That chart is pure, unadulterated bullchit.

Don't have time to go through point by point but the Greens' stance of "look - those two are exactly the same because I said so in a chart" is just so lazy. No climate action? Lol. One guy denies climate change is happening to begin with while the other gets a B+ on the environment from Greenpeace. And you can go down that list.

But oh yes, me with no political experience or track record will make the US 100% clean by 2030 because... um, I said so and I've never had to get my hands dirty in my life. Sorry and this isn't directed at you but the candidate... but FOH!

There are big differences but that chart is not a great way of showing it. It's obviously designed to gain some enthusiasm which is commendable but not the basis for an intellectual debate.

Yea, I hope that wasn't published officially by the Green Party. It looks very unprofessional lol.

[Capn'O]

That chart is pure, unadulterated bullchit.

Don't have time to go through point by point but the Greens' stance of "look - those two are exactly the same because I said so in a chart" is just so lazy. No climate action? Lol. One guy denies climate change is happening to begin with while the other gets a B+ on the environment from Greenpeace. And you can go down that list.

But oh yes, me with no political experience or track record will make the US 100% clean by 2030 because... um, I said so and I've never had to get my hands dirty in my life. Sorry and this isn't directed at you but the candidate... but FOH!

There are big differences but that chart is not a great way of showing it. It's obviously designed to gain some enthusiasm which is commendable but not the basis for an intellectual debate.

Yea, I hope that wasn't published officially by the Green Party. It looks very unprofessional lol.

Original context...

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I'm not sure that the Democratic Party is ultimately the best receptacle for Bernie's movement but I really appreciate that he's given the real left some legitimacy through that platform. The Greens, as far as I'm concerned, are a thinktank/advocacy group that happens to run for president and other high offices as a publicity campaign. An utter waste of time. Hawkins activism career is commendable, for example, but the man has never been a public servant in any capacity. It's perpetual campaigning of ideas. Well, the ideas may have some merit but the candidacies don't. Stop wasting our time.

[Stannis]

I'm not sure that the Democratic Party is ultimately the best receptacle for Bernie's movement but I really appreciate that he's given the real left some legitimacy through that platform. The Greens, as far as I'm concerned, are a thinktank/advocacy group that happens to run for president and other high offices as a publicity campaign. An utter waste of time. Hawkins activism career is commendable, for example, but the man has never been a public servant in any capacity. It's perpetual campaigning of ideas. Well, the ideas may have some merit but the candidacies don't. Stop wasting our time.

Yikes, that makes it feel like some random blue checkmark account is running for a party.

One policy that I do really like of the Green Party is ranked-choice voting. They have been pushing it for a while. If the DNC really thinks the Green Party ruins their elections, they should work their butts off getting a national ranked-choice voting system.

[DOT]

There are big differences but that chart is not a great way of showing it. It's obviously designed to gain some enthusiasm which is commendable but not the basis for an intellectual debate.

Yea, I hope that wasn't published officially by the Green Party. It looks very unprofessional lol.

Original context...

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I'm not sure that the Democratic Party is ultimately the best receptacle for Bernie's movement but I really appreciate that he's given the real left some legitimacy through that platform. The Greens, as far as I'm concerned, are a thinktank/advocacy group that happens to run for president and other high offices as a publicity campaign. An utter waste of time. Hawkins activism career is commendable, for example, but the man has never been a public servant in any capacity. It's perpetual campaigning of ideas. Well, the ideas may have some merit but the candidacies don't. Stop wasting our time.

Yeah, I mean, this is from Biden's own website:

the Green New Deal is a crucial framework for meeting the climate challenges we face. It powerfully captures two basic truths, which are at the core of his plan: (1) the United States urgently needs to embrace greater ambition on an epic scale to meet the scope of this challenge, and (2) our environment and our economy are completely and totally connected.

https://joebiden.com/climate/

Plus, Biden did say he wanted to add student debt relief to his platform

It's more of, I don't think Biden will take as decisive action as needed, and I know he's been pro fracking (which is a necessary give to win the rust belt), but saying he's not gonna take any action is just blatantly false. Really seems like someone trying to splinter the left to guarantee a 2nd term for Trump

It's the same with everything with Biden for me, he's not what I want but he's a damn sight better than the other option, and once we get him in, we can't rest on our laurels, we need to keep pushing so we don't fall off a cliff again next cycle, cause we haven't had more than 8 consecutive years of Dem presidents since FDR-Truman in 33-53, and that needs to change

[Capn'O]

Yea, I hope that wasn't published officially by the Green Party. It looks very unprofessional lol.

Original context...

Read on Twitter

I'm not sure that the Democratic Party is ultimately the best receptacle for Bernie's movement but I really appreciate that he's given the real left some legitimacy through that platform. The Greens, as far as I'm concerned, are a thinktank/advocacy group that happens to run for president and other high offices as a publicity campaign. An utter waste of time. Hawkins activism career is commendable, for example, but the man has never been a public servant in any capacity. It's perpetual campaigning of ideas. Well, the ideas may have some merit but the candidacies don't. Stop wasting our time.

Yeah, I mean, this is from Biden's own website:

the Green New Deal is a crucial framework for meeting the climate challenges we face. It powerfully captures two basic truths, which are at the core of his plan: (1) the United States urgently needs to embrace greater ambition on an epic scale to meet the scope of this challenge, and (2) our environment and our economy are completely and totally connected.

https://joebiden.com/climate/

Plus, Biden did say he wanted to add student debt relief to his platform

It's more of, I don't think Biden will take as decisive action as needed, and I know he's been pro fracking (which is a necessary give to win the rust belt), but saying he's not gonna take any action is just blatantly false. Really seems like someone trying to splinter the left to guarantee a 2nd term for Trump

It's the same with everything with Biden for me, he's not what I want but he's a damn sight better than the other option, and once we get him in, we can't rest on our laurels, we need to keep pushing so we don't fall off a cliff again next cycle, cause we haven't had more than 8 consecutive years of Dem presidents since FDR-Truman in 33-53, and that needs to change

JUMANJI!!!!

Um, I mean, Bingo!

Also, capturing Congress w/ progressives.

[DOT]

Original context...

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I'm not sure that the Democratic Party is ultimately the best receptacle for Bernie's movement but I really appreciate that he's given the real left some legitimacy through that platform. The Greens, as far as I'm concerned, are a thinktank/advocacy group that happens to run for president and other high offices as a publicity campaign. An utter waste of time. Hawkins activism career is commendable, for example, but the man has never been a public servant in any capacity. It's perpetual campaigning of ideas. Well, the ideas may have some merit but the candidacies don't. Stop wasting our time.

Yeah, I mean, this is from Biden's own website:

the Green New Deal is a crucial framework for meeting the climate challenges we face. It powerfully captures two basic truths, which are at the core of his plan: (1) the United States urgently needs to embrace greater ambition on an epic scale to meet the scope of this challenge, and (2) our environment and our economy are completely and totally connected.

https://joebiden.com/climate/

Plus, Biden did say he wanted to add student debt relief to his platform

It's more of, I don't think Biden will take as decisive action as needed, and I know he's been pro fracking (which is a necessary give to win the rust belt), but saying he's not gonna take any action is just blatantly false. Really seems like someone trying to splinter the left to guarantee a 2nd term for Trump

It's the same with everything with Biden for me, he's not what I want but he's a damn sight better than the other option, and once we get him in, we can't rest on our laurels, we need to keep pushing so we don't fall off a cliff again next cycle, cause we haven't had more than 8 consecutive years of Dem presidents since FDR-Truman in 33-53, and that needs to change

JUMANJI!!!!

Um, I mean, Bingo!

Also, capturing Congress w/ progressives.

Not just congress, but all down ballot races are especially crucial this year

Cause it's the turn of the decade, when we do redistricting, and the party in charge (I think of the State Senate, could be wrong there) decides how to group districts. So if we get enough state level reps to go blue, we can reverse some of the GOP gerrymandering. I think that was something that didn't get talked enough about 2 years ago is how many state level offices went blue, despite losing one seat in the Senate and not getting a super majority in the House. Granted, it still doesn't help with the Senate, but it could swing the House massively for the next decade, cause right now Dems have to win 5% more of the vote to get the same number of seats or something like that, and it's why the big red wave in 2010 was so devastating for us right now

Also, just in case I get corrected, I went and looked, and it's not exactly debt relief he's offering, but free college for new students in lower-middle class families. For people like me, I still have to pay back my debt, but if I make less than 25,000 a year I don't have to pay, I can't be forced to pay more than 5% per year and if I hit 5% a year for 20 years, any remaining debt is wiped out

Which is nice, but I'm gonna be right on the bubble where it really doesn't help me that much, as it will with many current students. So that's where the, I want him to go further stuff comes in

Strangely enough, the thing I most agree with him on is railroads. I'm 100% behind him on that, a better rail system could do amazing things for us.

[Pointgod]

Serious question. So let’s assume Sanders supporters don’t vote for Biden in 2020 and Trump wins again. Let’s assume turnout from moderates, independents and anti Trump Republicans in support of Biden is upbut the Sanders vote is what loses the presidency. How do you see Progressive policies being passed when Trump and Republicans keep the Presidency, Senate and the Supreme Court becomes 6-3 or 7-2 Conservative? What’s the path forward to get Progressive President, Senate and Congress after at least 4 more years of Republican rule?

First of all that won't happen lol. Stop trying to lay the groundwork for that excuse if Biden gets defeated. You always go to that for Hillary's humiliating 2016 loss and are already thinking about that for 2020.

In this scenario, if Biden manages to get independent voters, he will likely come out with more than enough Bernie votes too.

Anyways, Biden has flat out said he will not do M4A. Lot of Bernie supporters hold that close. I can't blame voters wanting M4A not voting for Biden, because there's no chance that happens with him as president.

Biden has already said he's trying to find a middle ground between for climate change. Most climate change activists don't believe in a middle ground

Having a republican president didn't stop the the surge of progressive politicians we have seen in the few years couple years.

I framed that the bolded in that way for a specific reason. I’m not trying to preemptively blame Bernie’s supporter if Biden loses. It will definitely be a combination of reasons just like in 2016. The point is that there’s really no way forward if Progressives don’t show up to vote. By staying at home you’re actually giving up your power and influence. It’s the same argument with the youth vote. You can’t get your policies put forward if you don’t show that you’re an influential voting block.

Sure a wave of Progressive politics have been increasing even though the President is Republican, but

1. None of the Progressive candidates in the House races flipped a seat from red to blue so the path to capturing red and purple districts seems to be through moderate candidates
2. How much Progressive legislation has been passed with a Republican President?

I noticed you didn’t answer my question. What is the path to a Progressive Presidency, House and Senate if people are going to sit out during the elections or refuse to support other Democrats?

[Stannis]

I noticed you didn’t answer my question. What is the path to a Progressive Presidency, House and Senate if people are going to sit out during the elections or refuse to support other Democrats?

The ones who stay home or third party, rank being anti-establishment higher beating Trump. Because they think they are the first barrier. It's a fair concern because of Biden's history, and the fact that we had 8 years of Obama-Biden and they hardly tackled any of these ongoing issues that we like to pretend started when Trump came into office. I don't mostly agree with them, but I see why some won't vote for either Biden or Trump. I'm on the fence myself.

If the Biden administration is really serious about getting progressive votes and "uniting the party", he should appoint Warren as his VP, imo.

[HarthorneWingo]

Yea, I hope that wasn't published officially by the Green Party. It looks very unprofessional lol.

Original context...

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I'm not sure that the Democratic Party is ultimately the best receptacle for Bernie's movement but I really appreciate that he's given the real left some legitimacy through that platform. The Greens, as far as I'm concerned, are a thinktank/advocacy group that happens to run for president and other high offices as a publicity campaign. An utter waste of time. Hawkins activism career is commendable, for example, but the man has never been a public servant in any capacity. It's perpetual campaigning of ideas. Well, the ideas may have some merit but the candidacies don't. Stop wasting our time.

Yeah, I mean, this is from Biden's own website:

the Green New Deal is a crucial framework for meeting the climate challenges we face. It powerfully captures two basic truths, which are at the core of his plan: (1) the United States urgently needs to embrace greater ambition on an epic scale to meet the scope of this challenge, and (2) our environment and our economy are completely and totally connected.

https://joebiden.com/climate/

Plus, Biden did say he wanted to add student debt relief to his platform

It's more of, I don't think Biden will take as decisive action as needed, and I know he's been pro fracking (which is a necessary give to win the rust belt), but saying he's not gonna take any action is just blatantly false. Really seems like someone trying to splinter the left to guarantee a 2nd term for Trump

It's the same with everything with Biden for me, he's not what I want but he's a damn sight better than the other option, and once we get him in, we can't rest on our laurels, we need to keep pushing so we don't fall off a cliff again next cycle, cause we haven't had more than 8 consecutive years of Dem presidents since FDR-Truman in 33-53, and that needs to change

A lot of candidates picked on the Green New Deal lingo without committing the proper resources. It's like Pelosi calling herself a "progressive." Please. The proof is in the money he's willing to devote to the program. Look at the diference between Biden vs. Bernie's programs. Night and day. Also, I'm sure you noticed that while AOC has endorsed Biden, she has criticized his climate change program.

Biden's plan doesn't fund "the" Green New Deal.

[DOT]

A lot of candidates picked on the Green New Deal lingo without committing the proper resources. It's like Pelosi calling herself a "progressive." Please. The proof is in the money he's willing to devote to the program. Look at the diference between Biden vs. Bernie's programs. Night and day. Also, I'm sure you noticed that while AOC has endorsed Biden, she has criticized his climate change program.

Biden's plan doesn't fund "the" Green New Deal.

Right, as I pointed out. It doesn't go nearly far enough for me

But there's a big difference between "this isn't enough" and "this is literally going in the opposite direction"