Political Roundtable Part XXVIII

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Ruzious]

pancake chen defending China, but attacking anything that even veers to the right, there's a shocker. What I cant fathom is why Ruz would applaud them and say, where would we be if not for China sending us so and so?

You can just end that question with the nation itself, where would we be if not for China?

Quote, link, context, anything? Or are you just channeling your inner anger?

The only thing I can think of in regard to his comment about me... is something I said about 2 weeks ago - when I said something about being thankful that China or a Chinese businessman contributed 1,000 ventilators to New York - when NY was desperately short of them.

What an awful thing for me to say. I'm so ashamed.

[pancakes3]

but that's clearly a shot at me, and not you, Ruz.

he def still thinks my name is Chen, and is trying to slyly out me while taking shots at what he thinks is my ethnicity.

both super cool things to do, and definitely not bannable offenses.

[dckingsfan]

Yeah, so much for Test. Isolate. Quarantine. Contain.

Sigh. Guess this kind of sums it up...

Read on Twitter

[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

[montestewart]

what's insane is that all U.S. history, government, and civics students from now on will be forced to learn that in 2016, a presidential candidate openly solicits foreign intervention to sway the election, and a foreign government intervened, but when an independent counsel came to the conclusion that although there was sufficient evidence that there definitely a call, and an answer, they weren't able to collect enough evidence to establishing a causal relationship, and everyone just pretended nothing happened.

then barely a year after the investigation, that presidential candidate, who at that point had become the sitting president, again solicited foreign intervention in an election. he was impeached, and during the senate trial, the majority party, the party of the President in question, literally refused to conduct a trial, called no witnesses, and rubber stamped an acquittal within the span of a week.

or how about the idea that Republicans were losing their minds over Hunter Biden have no problem with Jared Kushner being in charge of everything?

spare me your regurgitated Joe Rogan hot takes.

Rogan is at least a little more even handed than most Trump supporters, partly because he has some fans who are not Trump supporters, and he doesn't want to drive them away.

[montestewart]

pancake chen defending China, but attacking anything that even veers to the right, there's a shocker. What I cant fathom is why Ruz would applaud them and say, where would we be if not for China sending us so and so?

You can just end that question with the nation itself, where would we be if not for China?

Quote, link, context, anything? Or are you just channeling your inner anger?

The only thing I can think of in regard to his comment about me... is something I said about 2 weeks ago - when I said something about being thankful that China or a Chinese businessman contributed 1,000 ventilators to New York - when NY was desperately short of them.

What an awful thing for me to say. I'm so ashamed.

I have Chinese friends and colleagues. I am a communist subversive.

[Pointgod]

but that's clearly a shot at me, and not you, Ruz.

he def still thinks my name is Chen, and is trying to slyly out me while taking shots at what he thinks is my ethnicity.

both super cool things to do, and definitely not bannable offenses.

Yeah I caught that too. It came out of nowhere and really shouldn’t be tolerated. I don’t remember you posting anything positive about the Chinese government. And of course the dumbass STD and1s the post from beyond the grave.

[dobrojim]

but that's clearly a shot at me, and not you, Ruz.

he def still thinks my name is Chen, and is trying to slyly out me while taking shots at what he thinks is my ethnicity.

both super cool things to do, and definitely not bannable offenses.

I guess I’m in good company for ‘name calling’ by which I guess
he means my general comment that simple minds often propose
simple solutions to what are massively complicated problems.

Some things are simple though like when David Brooks said
“This is what happens when you elect a sociopath.” Like
the guy Da1 defended as ethical and a protector of life.

[Ruzious]

but that's clearly a shot at me, and not you, Ruz.

he def still thinks my name is Chen, and is trying to slyly out me while taking shots at what he thinks is my ethnicity.

both super cool things to do, and definitely not bannable offenses.

Duh definitely crossed a line there. Not sure if he's more McCartheyist or more KKKish. All these guys crave attention. The only reason I saw that was because someone quoted him. I'd ask everyone to not quote him and consider putting him on ignore.

[pancakes3]

telling posters to put problematic posters on ignore instead of banning is a fence-in/fence-out thought experiment.

hypothetically, if one of the houses in your neighborhood has a pet that has a problem with running out of the boundaries of their owner's yard and peeing in everyone else's yard, would the most efficient solution be to tell every other house in the neighborhood to erect fences to keep the piss dog out, or to have the piss house erect a fence to keep their piss dog contained?

[Ruzious]

telling posters to put problematic posters on ignore instead of banning is a fence-in/fence-out thought experiment.

hypothetically, if one of the houses in your neighborhood has a pet that has a problem with running out of the boundaries of their owner's yard and peeing in everyone else's yard, would the most efficient solution be to tell every other house in the neighborhood to erect fences to keep the piss dog out, or to have the piss house erect a fence to keep their piss dog contained?

I'm not a moderator on this board, and I respect that it's their choice of what to do in these cases. Also, I don't see how your analogy fits. The situation is what it is - no analogy is needed to understand it.

[montestewart]

I am most disappointed in liberals and leftists when they betray a willingness to dispense of speech that they don’t like. Free speech is not for the weak. From the president on down, this country has serious problems, and a few shrill right wing posters are the least of those problems, yet they are a direct reflection (not filtered through liberal media) of views that gave us that president. Here’s a thought experiment, face reality or use the ignore function.

[queridiculo]

Plus while it’s clear they could and should have handled it better,
I don’t believe they acted maliciously, not on the evidence I am
currently aware of. Saying we should make all companies doing
business in China pay isn’t a very practical solution. Simple minds,
simple ideas, complicated problems will remain unsolved.
Good thing we have stable genius in charge. I forgot to mention
highly ethical and empathetic. Oh wait.

name calling again, in times of a pandemic, nice. But you have yet to ever propose anything beneficial in your entire life, so rocks, glass houses.

you can believe what you want, time in time out these things start there 9 times out of 10, why? Did they create this in a lab?
Call it a conspiracy, but why does it always start there? Because of their vile eating habits? Oh let me guess, because they have such a massive population, yet they have a billion populated neighbor where these things never originate.

Pure comedy.

[Ruzious]

It's just shocking that more diseases start in China than they do in the US... when China has more than 4 times... the population of the US.

[pancakes3]

re: fence-in/fence-out, the parallel is that the mods are putting the burden on the posters, instead of the problem when it'd just be more efficient to address the problem.

re: free speech. it's not a matter of differing political opinions. i'm not advocating for popper, nate, or bonscott to be banned. it's him continuing to try and out me, and the demonstrable racist take that chinese ppl as a whole are predisposed to be diseased and that they have vile eating habits. it's not cool. also, the manner in which posts are made matters almost as much as the content.

but whatever, carry on, i suppose.

[gtn130]

I am most disappointed in liberals and leftists when they betray a willingness to dispense of speech that they don’t like. Free speech is not for the weak. From the president on down, this country has serious problems, and a few shrill right wing posters are the least of those problems, yet they are a direct reflection (not filtered through liberal media) of views that gave us that president. Here’s a thought experiment, face reality or use the ignore function.

Monte, come on. You think anyone here is afraid to argue with SD20 or daoneandonly or Nate or any other right winger? The issue being described is Da1's poor attempt at doxing pancakes. Doxing is bad. It's generally intended to harass or intimidate in a personal, real world way. It crosses a line and it could be harmful to some folks - we don't know and we should err on the side of caution.

I don't see why mods can't make use of temp bans if they don't feel comfortable blasting people away with perma bans. SD20 was allowed to turn this entire thread into his right wing conspiracy twitter aggregation service for well over a year - it's just silly to allow that type of stuff to go on, even from just a practical sense.

It has nothing to do with speech.

[pancakes3]

bullet points of Trump's guidelines - 3 phases, requiring 14 days of downward trajectory before moving to next phase.

Phase 1:
Requiring vulnerable individuals to continue sheltering in place.
Practicing physical distancing in public, avoiding socializing in groups of more than 10 people.
Minimizing non-essential travel, continuing to encourage telework.
Shuttered schools should remained closed.
Prohibiting nursing home and hospital visits.
Elective surgeries can resume, on an outpatient basis.
Bars should remain closed, but gyms can open under physical distancing and sanitation protocols.

Phase 2:
Schools can reopen.
Non-essential travel can resume.
Bars could operate with "diminished standing-room occupancy."
Vulnerable people would still be encouraged to stay home.
All people should maximize physical distancing in public.
Continue to encourage telework.
Gyms and bars can remain open.
Visits to nursing homes and hospitals are still prohibited.
Movie theaters, sporting venues and churches can operate under moderate physical distancing.
Elective surgeries can resume on an outpatient and in-patient basis.

Phase 3:
Full open

Bhaskar Chakravorti, dean of global business at The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University, called the strategy "a bad idea motivated by Trump's political motives rather than a measured, data-driven public health strategy."

"The data clearly suggests we have nowhere near the testing capabilities or even the supply chain for materials for testing," Chakravorti said. "There is no way we are prepared to meet the surge in demand that will inevitably arise."

"This isn't a plan. It's barely a powerpoint," said Ronald Klain, former White House Ebola coordinator during the Obama administration.

Klain pointed out there was "no provision to ramp up testing, no standard on levels of disease before opening ('down' is a direction, not a level) and no protections for workers or customers."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/16/coronavirus-trump-issue-new-guidelines-reopen-us-economy/5146874002/

[montestewart]

I am most disappointed in liberals and leftists when they betray a willingness to dispense of speech that they don’t like. Free speech is not for the weak. From the president on down, this country has serious problems, and a few shrill right wing posters are the least of those problems, yet they are a direct reflection (not filtered through liberal media) of views that gave us that president. Here’s a thought experiment, face reality or use the ignore function.

Monte, come on. You think anyone here is afraid to argue with SD20 or daoneandonly or Nate or any other right winger? The issue being described is Da1's poor attempt at doxing pancakes. Doxing is bad. It's generally intended to harass or intimidate in a personal, real world way. It crosses a line and it could be harmful to some folks - we don't know and we should err on the side of caution.

I don't see why mods can't make use of temp bans if they don't feel comfortable blasting people away with perma bans. SD20 was allowed to turn this entire thread into his right wing conspiracy twitter aggregation service for well over a year - it's just silly to allow that type of stuff to go on, even from just a practical sense.

It has nothing to do with speech.

I took the "chen," which I only noticed once, to be a hands-like typo or covfefe. If someone feels there is a violation like doxing that is not being addressed, they should report the post or PM me.

Da1, in this world filled with online harassment and threats, and in this country full of fools who have a cache of weapons, anger, immaturity and faux machismo, actual doxing smacks of a criminal act, and maybe it is in some places. As stated above, I have given you the benefit of doubt. If in fact that is what you were playing at, don't, and don't play at anything that can be perceived as a racial, ethnic, sex/gender, etc. slur. I hope that is clear to you and to everyone.

gtn130, you clearly are not afraid to argue. I have not forgotten how shocked so many people were that Trump could be elected. I think many here and on the Current Affairs board assess what Trump supporters believe from conservative media filtered through liberal media or from liberal media curation of the views. It's more entertaining but, I think, less accurate than hearing views from Trump supporters.

I won't get into naming names here, but some of the lefties and liberals here make much more of an effort than others do to thoughtfully debate against thoughtfully presented (if repugnant) conservative points of view without severe confrontation and condescension. Some Trump supporters are not so blaring in their presentation, but they appear to have been chased away, and we are left with what we've got. The extreme minority view in a forum often is more shrill, dogmatic, and confrontational, the lone voice in a snake pit. Historically in this country, protesters for gay rights, women's rights, black rights, worker's rights, and against war have been routinely dismissed because of "presentation."

Last year, this thread was much more stressful and difficult to moderate. That was largely due to the posting style of one poster, and yet it was not purely because of that one poster, not by a long shot. To a certain degree, trolling takes two. If you're mad, you might be one of them.

If posters feel like there is no realistic hope for left-right debate and want this thread to be The Leftist Roundtable, let's have that discussion. Conservatives could start their own thread. The moderating job would be a lot easier.

[Ruzious]

bullet points of Trump's guidelines - 3 phases, requiring 14 days of downward trajectory before moving to next phase.

Phase 1:
Requiring vulnerable individuals to continue sheltering in place.
Practicing physical distancing in public, avoiding socializing in groups of more than 10 people.
Minimizing non-essential travel, continuing to encourage telework.
Shuttered schools should remained closed.
Prohibiting nursing home and hospital visits.
Elective surgeries can resume, on an outpatient basis.
Bars should remain closed, but gyms can open under physical distancing and sanitation protocols.

Phase 2:
Schools can reopen.
Non-essential travel can resume.
Bars could operate with "diminished standing-room occupancy."
Vulnerable people would still be encouraged to stay home.
All people should maximize physical distancing in public.
Continue to encourage telework.
Gyms and bars can remain open.
Visits to nursing homes and hospitals are still prohibited.
Movie theaters, sporting venues and churches can operate under moderate physical distancing.
Elective surgeries can resume on an outpatient and in-patient basis.

Phase 3:
Full open

Bhaskar Chakravorti, dean of global business at The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University, called the strategy "a bad idea motivated by Trump's political motives rather than a measured, data-driven public health strategy."

"The data clearly suggests we have nowhere near the testing capabilities or even the supply chain for materials for testing," Chakravorti said. "There is no way we are prepared to meet the surge in demand that will inevitably arise."

"This isn't a plan. It's barely a powerpoint," said Ronald Klain, former White House Ebola coordinator during the Obama administration.

Klain pointed out there was "no provision to ramp up testing, no standard on levels of disease before opening ('down' is a direction, not a level) and no protections for workers or customers."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/16/coronavirus-trump-issue-new-guidelines-reopen-us-economy/5146874002/

Despite the criticism, I feel like there's progress in the plan - because it's the first time I've heard a real plan from the WH. Is it realistic? Probably not - it'd probably make a lot more sense to put a month between each phase rather than just 2 weeks, but I assume the 14 days thing isn't set in stone at this point. At least it's an outline to work with.