Semi-OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

[spacemonkey]

I don't think it was a deflection tactic, It's still important to find out the true source of the virus though, whether it was genetically modified or not. There needs to be accountability if the CCP knew of this and have been trying to cover it up. imo they did.

I'm no CCP apologist - far from it (look at my posts in the HK protests threads or the NBA vs China threads, and I recognize your username from them as well), but it's becoming clearer that the level of 'cover up' of this virus was local governments not wanting to draw the Eye of Sauron, aka big daddy xi and the central government.

The whistleblower doctor was censored by local Wuhan government, and the local officials were the ones trying to cover this up and minimize it / downplay it, because getting in trouble with the central government in China is basically asking for your career to be over, and in extreme cases, worse.

The central government is almost certainly hiding things / fudging the numbers too, but, I mean, who expected transparency from China? I don't even expect it from the US - and, meeting my expectations, the US hasn't on the whole been transparent.

As for a deflection tactic, this lab-made stuff coming back up again absolutely was. It was a political tool, and it was really obvious. This stuff was talked about before, and was debunked before by actual scientists, not politicians.

People completely lapped it up and got distracted for a hot minute, no longer focusing on the domestic handling of this thing, instead having an other to point their fingers at.

[HotRocks34]

...

Amazing information, man. You're really on top of this! Appreciate the education and enlightenment.

Yeah, the Stanford experiment may not have had the best setup or CI's, it looks like. I don't know (didn't read the details) on the Germany study (0.37% CFR or IFR) if there were any kind of similar issues.

I believe that the Abbott labs antibody test either just got approved or will be soon, in the USA. So hopefully we will have some more data sets soon.

And agreed, scientists (I know Fauci wrote a piece on it in the New England Journal of Medicine) have felt that the CFR was lower than the known CFR for some time. Still, it's nice to get some validation of that belief.

[MotownMadness]

Stop calling it man made to debunk it. They were extracting viruses from Horseshoe bats through needles and collecting ticks.

This isnt even debatable cause theres documentaries produced by the wuhan lab going out to caves and doing it.

Whether or not they F'd up with samples and had a leak or what not is the question. Not whether its man made in a lab as some weapon.

[Young gun 6]

There are multiple medications that were released and had been in stock for years before we found they were unsafe or caused damage we couldnt predict. Regardless of what the medication does or how it should theoretically work, the only way to know if something is safe long term is to reach the long term. Its a risk. The risk is fine if the vaccine is treating a virus that presents a more dangerous situation today than the possible harm it may have in the future, and people can do that kind of risk/benefit math.

I dont think the possible benefits outweigh the risk for me. And i get im putting myself in the anti-vaxxers group, but there's nothing unscientific about my decision.

How long do you need you need a vaccine to be tested to feel comfortable taking it?

What do you think the risks are?

Probably until i become part of an at risk group or we have a decade+ of data. Like i get all the structural problems that COVID has caused to the world, but on an individual level, the risk of any real harm is extremely low to those young and healthy individuals.

Aside from your self what are your thoughts on then potentially being a carrier, passing it on to people like KAT’s mother, and then them dying?

Seems a simplistic view to say you wouldn’t want a vaccine unless it had 10+ years worth of testing and you personally were at risk. Yet, you could be spreading the virus and being the result of several other people dying..

[bidde]

...

Amazing information, man. You're really on top of this! Appreciate the education and enlightenment.

Yeah, the Stanford experiment may not have had the best setup or CI's, it looks like. I don't know (didn't read the details) on the Germany study (0.37% CFR or IFR) if there were any kind of similar issues.

I believe that the Abbott labs antibody test either just got approved or will be soon, in the USA. So hopefully we will have some more data sets soon.

And agreed, scientists (I know Fauci wrote a piece on it in the New England Journal of Medicine) have felt that the CFR was lower than the known CFR for some time. Still, it's nice to get some validation of that belief.

It's definitely encouraging and I didn't mean to say the Stanford study is bad or anything. Just wanted to give some caveats so people can understand why some other studies might end up with different numbers. We probably won't see that one paper that answers everything, but rather there will be a lot of small puzzle pieces that need to be looked at together to make sense.

As far as I know that German study didn't release any of the details yet, just presented some preliminary results. There are more antibody studies in the works in Germany, the first results are expected in early May.

[Clay Davis]

I don't think it was a deflection tactic, It's still important to find out the true source of the virus though, whether it was genetically modified or not. There needs to be accountability if the CCP knew of this and have been trying to cover it up. imo they did.

I'm no CCP apologist - far from it (look at my posts in the HK protests threads or the NBA vs China threads, and I recognize your username from them as well), but it's becoming clearer that the level of 'cover up' of this virus was local governments not wanting to draw the Eye of Sauron, aka big daddy xi and the central government.

The whistleblower doctor was censored by local Wuhan government, and the local officials were the ones trying to cover this up and minimize it / downplay it, because getting in trouble with the central government in China is basically asking for your career to be over, and in extreme cases, worse.

The central government is almost certainly hiding things / fudging the numbers too, but, I mean, who expected transparency from China? I don't even expect it from the US - and, meeting my expectations, the US hasn't on the whole been transparent.

As for a deflection tactic, this lab-made stuff coming back up again absolutely was. It was a political tool, and it was really obvious. This stuff was talked about before, and was debunked before by actual scientists, not politicians.

People completely lapped it up and got distracted for a hot minute, no longer focusing on the domestic handling of this thing, instead having an other to point their fingers at.

A few things:
1. The C.C.P. is a heavily centralized entity. That there is a culture where local officials are afraid to arouse the ire of their higher-ups is absolutely a result of a bureaucratic culture that rewards syncophancy and prioritizes the saving of face over actual competence. To say that this is purely a result of ignorance on the part of local officials is a line used by many to absolve the C.C.P. of responsibility. Nothing could be further from the truth.
2. When there is a failing in a system as large as the Chinese government and when the Chinese government is motivated to absolve itself of responsibility, it makes a lot of sense for them to pinpoint a fall-guy and gas-light the population into thinking that the remedy is an increasingly rigid top-down architecture for their government. I think that this narrative is useful for the C.C.P. from the perspective of avoiding criticism of their central party and for securing even greater control.
3. Dr. Li Wenliang originally spoke in a WeChat group. I believe that the oversight for a group like this is, likely, not local; there's no reason why the alarm could not have been raised wherever WeChat's headquarters are rather than in Wuhan. It is very likely that oversight of what happens on WeChat (and the dispensation of actions regarding what is seen) is undertaken by China's Security Commission, which work very, very closely with the central party.
4. The idea that patient 0 originated in a research lab has not been laid to rest. There is very credible evidence (such as the fact that the purported patient 0, Huang Yan Ling, is missing and her info has been wiped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology website. Furthermore, research into the origins of the lab is being extremely scrutinized at the moment and is subject to a lot of surveillance. This is not to get into Beijing originally barring foreign virologists from the WHO and CDC traveling to Wuhan to study the virus for a significant length of time.
5. It is downright naive to give the benefit of the doubt to a country that is currently incarcerating over a million people in concentration camps.

[shakes0]

I don't think it was a deflection tactic, It's still important to find out the true source of the virus though, whether it was genetically modified or not. There needs to be accountability if the CCP knew of this and have been trying to cover it up. imo they did.

I'm no CCP apologist - far from it (look at my posts in the HK protests threads or the NBA vs China threads, and I recognize your username from them as well), but it's becoming clearer that the level of 'cover up' of this virus was local governments not wanting to draw the Eye of Sauron, aka big daddy xi and the central government.

The whistleblower doctor was censored by local Wuhan government, and the local officials were the ones trying to cover this up and minimize it / downplay it, because getting in trouble with the central government in China is basically asking for your career to be over, and in extreme cases, worse.

The central government is almost certainly hiding things / fudging the numbers too, but, I mean, who expected transparency from China? I don't even expect it from the US - and, meeting my expectations, the US hasn't on the whole been transparent.

As for a deflection tactic, this lab-made stuff coming back up again absolutely was. It was a political tool, and it was really obvious. This stuff was talked about before, and was debunked before by actual scientists, not politicians.

People completely lapped it up and got distracted for a hot minute, no longer focusing on the domestic handling of this thing, instead having an other to point their fingers at.

the only deflection going on here is from you as you not so cleverly try and deflect the origin story by focusing on "lab-made" while completely ignoring the theory of "virus being studied in lab escaped and was then covered up by China" which is obviously the most plausible explanation to this whole thing.

If Trump was here he would ask you if you worked for China.

[Zenzibar]

I mean, I'm not going to bother finding a source, but scientists had on the whole ruled out the engineered bioweapon angle much earlier. Edit: what the hell, here - March 17: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

Fair point. However, had the people officially investigating the matter decided to try to go with a "bioweapon" theory, then we could have been headed towards a full-on "Iraq WMD" situation (and all that it entails, including potential war).

I never bought into the theory, and I'm glad it's now officially junked.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charles-lieber-arrested-coronavirus/
Then there's this. Do a quick search on this case and it'll make you do this.. . Right out of a Robert Ludlum novel.

On Jan. 28, 2020, Harvard professor Charles Lieber was arrested and charged with making a materially false statement to federal authorities about receiving funding from China.

Lieber’s arrest was big news in academic circles; but after internet users noticed that the alleged funding was coming from a university in Wuhan, China, the center of an outbreak of a new coronavirus, wild speculation went viral and unfounded connections were drawn between Lieber and a conspiracy theory that the coronavirus was a lab-made bioweapon.

[Zenzibar]

How long do you need you need a vaccine to be tested to feel comfortable taking it?

What do you think the risks are?

Probably until i become part of an at risk group or we have a decade+ of data. Like i get all the structural problems that COVID has caused to the world, but on an individual level, the risk of any real harm is extremely low to those young and healthy individuals.

Aside from your self what are your thoughts on then potentially being a carrier, passing it on to people like KAT’s mother, and then them dying?

Seems a simplistic view to say you wouldn’t want a vaccine unless it had 10+ years worth of testing and you personally were at risk. Yet, you could be spreading the virus and being the result of several other people dying..

The vaccine will prohibit you from developing the systems of Covid, perhaps true. But if you get the vaccine and sneeze on an elderly or compromised with your antibodies will you infect them?

As you know, most who get the flu vaccine go to a period of 1-2 weeks with the flu reaction anyway. Will an elderly or health compromised person be able to withstand the initial body reaction?

[mademan]

How long do you need you need a vaccine to be tested to feel comfortable taking it?

What do you think the risks are?

Probably until i become part of an at risk group or we have a decade+ of data. Like i get all the structural problems that COVID has caused to the world, but on an individual level, the risk of any real harm is extremely low to those young and healthy individuals.

Aside from your self what are your thoughts on then potentially being a carrier, passing it on to people like KAT’s mother, and then them dying?

Seems a simplistic view to say you wouldn’t want a vaccine unless it had 10+ years worth of testing and you personally were at risk. Yet, you could be spreading the virus and being the result of several other people dying..

well ya. Im not gonna take something i dont need who's effects im not certain of for other people. Im a big believer that you should be selfish when it comes to your health.

[BadMofoPimp]

Probably until i become part of an at risk group or we have a decade+ of data. Like i get all the structural problems that COVID has caused to the world, but on an individual level, the risk of any real harm is extremely low to those young and healthy individuals.

Aside from your self what are your thoughts on then potentially being a carrier, passing it on to people like KAT’s mother, and then them dying?

Seems a simplistic view to say you wouldn’t want a vaccine unless it had 10+ years worth of testing and you personally were at risk. Yet, you could be spreading the virus and being the result of several other people dying..

The vaccine will prohibit you from developing the systems of Covid, perhaps true. But if you get the vaccine and sneeze on an elderly or compromised with your antibodies will you infect them?

As you know, most who get the flu vaccine go to a period of 1-2 weeks with the flu reaction anyway. Will an elderly or health compromised person be able to withstand the initial body reaction?

You make it sound like a Flu vaccine isn't a vaccine, but they infect you with the flu so your body creates antibodies for the flu!

[bondom34]

Probably until i become part of an at risk group or we have a decade+ of data. Like i get all the structural problems that COVID has caused to the world, but on an individual level, the risk of any real harm is extremely low to those young and healthy individuals.

Aside from your self what are your thoughts on then potentially being a carrier, passing it on to people like KAT’s mother, and then them dying?

Seems a simplistic view to say you wouldn’t want a vaccine unless it had 10+ years worth of testing and you personally were at risk. Yet, you could be spreading the virus and being the result of several other people dying..

The vaccine will prohibit you from developing the systems of Covid, perhaps true. But if you get the vaccine and sneeze on an elderly or compromised with your antibodies will you infect them?

As you know, most who get the flu vaccine go to a period of 1-2 weeks with the flu reaction anyway. Will an elderly or health compromised person be able to withstand the initial body reaction?

No, that's not what vaccines do, or how antibodies work.

[TunaFish]

Probably until i become part of an at risk group or we have a decade+ of data. Like i get all the structural problems that COVID has caused to the world, but on an individual level, the risk of any real harm is extremely low to those young and healthy individuals.

Aside from your self what are your thoughts on then potentially being a carrier, passing it on to people like KAT’s mother, and then them dying?

Seems a simplistic view to say you wouldn’t want a vaccine unless it had 10+ years worth of testing and you personally were at risk. Yet, you could be spreading the virus and being the result of several other people dying..

The vaccine will prohibit you from developing the systems of Covid, perhaps true. But if you get the vaccine and sneeze on an elderly or compromised with your antibodies will you infect them?

As you know, most who get the flu vaccine go to a period of 1-2 weeks with the flu reaction anyway. Will an elderly or health compromised person be able to withstand the initial body reaction?

I don't think anyone can (without guessing) answer your questions, at least until we develop a vaccine. The link I am posting below is to an article that goes into some depth on the status of developing a vaccine for Covid-19. There are eight separate tracts being pursued with several in actual trials. Interestingly, one of these branches of research is with China’s CanSino Biologics who appear to be first to launch clinical trials. They also developed the Ebola vaccine just approved in the U.S. This is significant because Ebola is also a coronavirus.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/record-setting-speed-vaccine-makers-take-their-first-shots-new-coronavirus

[Zenzibar]

Aside from your self what are your thoughts on then potentially being a carrier, passing it on to people like KAT’s mother, and then them dying?

Seems a simplistic view to say you wouldn’t want a vaccine unless it had 10+ years worth of testing and you personally were at risk. Yet, you could be spreading the virus and being the result of several other people dying..

The vaccine will prohibit you from developing the systems of Covid, perhaps true. But if you get the vaccine and sneeze on an elderly or compromised with your antibodies will you infect them?

As you know, most who get the flu vaccine go to a period of 1-2 weeks with the flu reaction anyway. Will an elderly or health compromised person be able to withstand the initial body reaction?

You make it sound like a Flu vaccine isn't a vaccine, but they infect you with the flu so your body creates antibodies for the flu!

You can laugh. But I haven't been vaccinated for 10 years. The last time? Got vaccinated and developed flu-like systems that lasted 2 weeks and couldn't even go to work. And I NEVER miss work.

10 years + no vaccine = 0 flu. It's my math.

[Zenzibar]

Aside from your self what are your thoughts on then potentially being a carrier, passing it on to people like KAT’s mother, and then them dying?

Seems a simplistic view to say you wouldn’t want a vaccine unless it had 10+ years worth of testing and you personally were at risk. Yet, you could be spreading the virus and being the result of several other people dying..

The vaccine will prohibit you from developing the systems of Covid, perhaps true. But if you get the vaccine and sneeze on an elderly or compromised with your antibodies will you infect them?

As you know, most who get the flu vaccine go to a period of 1-2 weeks with the flu reaction anyway. Will an elderly or health compromised person be able to withstand the initial body reaction?

No, that's not what vaccines do, or how antibodies work.

https://ijme.in/articles/deaths-in-a-trial-of-the-hpv-vaccine/?galley=html
No all vaccines are created equal.

Deaths in a trial of the HPV vaccine
The death of girls who were a part of a Human Papilloma Virus vaccine trial has raised an alarm about the nature of research in India as well as the value attached by the state to the lives of its citizens.

The trial was being conducted in Andhra Pradesh and Gujarat by the NGO PATH with support from the Indian Council of Medical Research and local health authorities. They were funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The vaccine is supplied by two companies, Merck Sharpe & Dohme and Glaxo Smith Kline.

When the government stopped the trials, three doses had already been administered to 30,000 participants, mostly tribal girls aged between 9 and 14.

[LAKESHOW]

Jogger social distances himself from cop, lol.

Watch on YouTube

He even let him get close then booked...

Not sure where this event is located. But this kinda sh#& is happenin all the time here in Southern Cal. The worse are the teens, who seem to never get tired, while they run, point and laugh at the same time.

[bondom34]

The vaccine will prohibit you from developing the systems of Covid, perhaps true. But if you get the vaccine and sneeze on an elderly or compromised with your antibodies will you infect them?

As you know, most who get the flu vaccine go to a period of 1-2 weeks with the flu reaction anyway. Will an elderly or health compromised person be able to withstand the initial body reaction?

No, that's not what vaccines do, or how antibodies work.

https://ijme.in/articles/deaths-in-a-trial-of-the-hpv-vaccine/?galley=html
No all vaccines are created equal.

Deaths in a trial of the HPV vaccine
The death of girls who were a part of a Human Papilloma Virus vaccine trial has raised an alarm about the nature of research in India as well as the value attached by the state to the lives of its citizens.

The trial was being conducted in Andhra Pradesh and Gujarat by the NGO PATH with support from the Indian Council of Medical Research and local health authorities. They were funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The vaccine is supplied by two companies, Merck Sharpe & Dohme and Glaxo Smith Kline.

When the government stopped the trials, three doses had already been administered to 30,000 participants, mostly tribal girls aged between 9 and 14.

That's a trial, and not talking about infecting other people. Having a trial is exactly why this is taking 12-18 months, because in trials you find out if there are adverse and extreme side effects.

A vaccine is a small/weakened dose of a virus. That causes your body to react by producing antibodies. Those antibodies are able to fight off the stronger version of the virus (this is a basic explanation but good enough for the time being).

So you can't infect someone because you had a vaccine. And antibodies don't infect people with the virus, they're your defense from it.

[SleepingDragon]

I don't think it was a deflection tactic, It's still important to find out the true source of the virus though, whether it was genetically modified or not. There needs to be accountability if the CCP knew of this and have been trying to cover it up. imo they did.

I'm no CCP apologist - far from it (look at my posts in the HK protests threads or the NBA vs China threads, and I recognize your username from them as well), but it's becoming clearer that the level of 'cover up' of this virus was local governments not wanting to draw the Eye of Sauron, aka big daddy xi and the central government.

The whistleblower doctor was censored by local Wuhan government, and the local officials were the ones trying to cover this up and minimize it / downplay it, because getting in trouble with the central government in China is basically asking for your career to be over, and in extreme cases, worse.

The central government is almost certainly hiding things / fudging the numbers too, but, I mean, who expected transparency from China? I don't even expect it from the US - and, meeting my expectations, the US hasn't on the whole been transparent.

As for a deflection tactic, this lab-made stuff coming back up again absolutely was. It was a political tool, and it was really obvious. This stuff was talked about before, and was debunked before by actual scientists, not politicians.

People completely lapped it up and got distracted for a hot minute, no longer focusing on the domestic handling of this thing, instead having an other to point their fingers at.

Local government officials covered up a SARS-like epidemic without notifying the central government and Chairman Xi?

You're naive at how an authoritarian government works. These officials will face death penalties if they try that.

[zimpy27]

One thing which has proliferated at the same time as the virus has certainly been conspiracy theories.

What do you think of the remsidivir stuff?. It does seem to be emerging that immunity after being infected by the virus is somewhat hit or miss.

Remdesivir and chloroquine both aim to stop viral replication in the host cells. Chloroquine does it by upping zinc in the cell, remdesivir does it by being a fake genetic building block. Remdesivir action is far more difficult to overcome for a virus and probably has a two-pronged effect as the fake building block also happens to be a cellular stress signal alerting the other cells that there is something wrong. So I think it is broadly a valuable as an antiviral but I'm concerned by the price of it. It's not going to be a miracle drug that will save your life if you get a samaging host response.

The virus seems benign in the upper respiratory tract but does it's damage when it gets to the lungs. It relies on an aggressive replication in lung cells. This does more damage in a shorter period, which might reduce the probability that your immune system identifies the right pieces of the virus to prime itself in case it tries to reinfect the host. On top of that, RNA viruses are especially problematic because they mutate more often.

Antibody testing will at least show the spread. We will begin to know how effective the antibodies created are at stopping reinfection once we have these antibody tests up and running. It will provide a better knowledge of what we are up against.

Already we know some people infected haven't even been able to produce antibodies. But I don't think at this stage there has been someone that was found to have antibodies post-infection and then got reinfected.

[jayu70]

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