ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#61 » by JordansBulls » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:15 am

NaturalThunder wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Atmanne wrote:Holy **** they made the playoffs with 30 wins?

Yes and they were 9-9 with MJ that year including the minutes restriction of 7 minutes a half.

Something doesn't add up here. Was it 7 minutes per half like the documentary said? Or 7 minutes per quarter? Because according to the BBR boxscore, he played 28 minutes in that Pacers game.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198604030IND.html

It started that way

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1986/
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#62 » by Repeat 3-peat » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:16 am

WalkOnAir wrote:Anybody knows if this will be released on Blu-ray in the future? I want to buy the whole set.


Doubtful. I do believe it will be released on Netflix later in the year.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#63 » by rapstarter » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:20 am

fanofthegreats wrote:
Tracymcgoaty wrote:
fanofthegreats wrote:Kind of a yawn.


Doesn't MJ have like 20 documentaries already? How much more can these things reveal really...Now the D.Rose documentary i've heard is **** amazing.

Kind of like all the Ali documentaries...They should have stopped after ''Facing Ali''. But they kept going.

With Ali you could atleast make a documentary about Him and Fraziers relationship...That would be amazing to watch considering Frazier helped him and Ali thanked him by mocking him in front of the world.


My thoughts exactly. It was funny watching MJ introduce himself though. The doc isn’t really giving insight into much that hasn’t been covered in depth.


Early reviews have said that the first two episodes are the weakest. Like you, I'm not expecting some earth shattering revelations here, but this one will be the best produced and essentially the go-to doc for MJ going forward.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#64 » by J___Av » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:22 am

Repeat 3-peat wrote:
WalkOnAir wrote:Anybody knows if this will be released on Blu-ray in the future? I want to buy the whole set.


Doubtful. I do believe it will be released on Netflix later in the year.


Doesn't Disney own ESPN? A Disney+ release makes sense if so
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#65 » by Repeat 3-peat » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:29 am

J___Av wrote:
Repeat 3-peat wrote:
WalkOnAir wrote:Anybody knows if this will be released on Blu-ray in the future? I want to buy the whole set.


Doubtful. I do believe it will be released on Netflix later in the year.


Doesn't Disney own ESPN? A Disney+ release makes sense if so


Possible but Netflix will be showing this documentary for the people outside of the United States.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#66 » by Angry Jimmy » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:32 am

Sedale Threatt wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
Atmanne wrote:Holy **** they made the playoffs with 30 wins?

Yes and they were 9-9 with MJ that year including the minutes restriction of 7 minutes a half.


They really sensationalized that. I was curious so I went back and looked at the game logs; he played 14 minutes or fewer in exactly two of those games. In the Indiana game they highlighted, he played 28.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1986



That’s one of the things I really hate about the genre of documentaries. They always present things as “fact” or “news” and is often the case, there is often a lot of of editorializing or recontextualizing of things to fit a narrative.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#67 » by Sedale Threatt » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:32 am

Ballerhogger wrote:Now I understand why the bulls fell off the map after Jordan retired my word ... the management my goodness


The only thing I can defend them on is the fact the team really was on fumes. Rodman was done, Jordan and Pippen both had a ton of miles on their tires, the rest of the team was always kind of spare parts that filled very specific roles around the sheer greatness of the big dogs. But yeah, the borderline enthusiasm to break it all up and start a rebuild is still pretty staggering. You kill to be in that position, and you're preemptively pulling the plug ... I highly, highly doubt they would have won it again, but how do you not let them have that opportunity, if nothing else as a thank you for everything they did to put your franchise on the map?

Ego is a hell of a drug.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#68 » by bondom34 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:00 am

Read on Twitter
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#69 » by 90sAllDecade » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:38 am

It was great so far, really shows what seperated MJ from other GOAT candidates mentally, building the blocks for what motivated the management and players as characters, classic tracks from the era to fit the mood. I was entertained
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#70 » by DTP » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:40 am

Couple of things I took away-

1) I'm on the side of management when it comes to the Pippen contract situation. Player signed a contract and apparently it was well known that Jerry didn't redo deals. Pippen has to take responsibility for HIM signing the damn contract. Now, why not offer him a nice extension and why Krause seemed to have publically taunted him with trade talk, idk....but the contract thing I understand the management side of that. I agree with MJ, Pippen came off as extremely selfish in the entire thing to me.

2) It gives me rage watching how eager Krause was to break the team up. 5 freakin championships and you're talking about rebuilding? What in the actual f***???
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#71 » by Heej » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:47 am

Drygon wrote:
Heej wrote:This dude couldn't win without Pippen lol.


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That's great, they still went on to get eliminated in the 2nd round tho. No one could do it without help, but this post will explain why Jordan mentally needed Pippen more than other superstars needed their sidekick.

What people don't understand, and what I didn't really get until watching KD win in 2017, is that so much of a team's capacity is defined by the roles that people play. And I don't mean the typical conception where there's stars and role players, I mean the literal high level strategic and communication based roles on a basketball team.

People think KD had potentially the GOAT Finals in 2017 looking at numbers only because he put up crazy high volume on God-tier efficiency, while taking on the assignment of guarding LeBron on many possessions. But to people who watched that Finals it was painfully obvious that the most important Golden State player was Curry, because the whole offense ran through him and the whole Cavs defense sold out to stop him at the expense of leaving KD on an island.

This is where the idea of roles and responsibilities came to light for me, because the game was extremely simplified for KD by having Curry on the offensive end functioning as the team's primary playmaker; which freed up energy for KD to purely score. And I don't mean physical energy either, for anyone who's played and has heard these players talk about playing at a high level, there's an emotional energy expenditure involved with setting up your team's offensive sets and putting people in the right position to score. Curry assumed that strategic role for the team and bore the mental burden for KD. This concept is extremely relevant to MJ as I'll get into later.

On the flipside, on defense communication and putting people in the right spots and calling out opposing sets has even more of a premium placed on it, and the energy expenditure from that is even greater. But people who are able to fulfill that middle linebacker-esque role are hugely valuable. JR Smith mentioned it in one of their post game interviews how LeBron makes everyone on the court a step faster on defense because he's always telling people where to be. Just the mental expenditure from that alone is naturally going to drain yourself from other facets of the game. It's the same role that Draymond played on the Warriors; and as Phil Jackson wrote in Eleven Rings, Scottie was the one who assumed the middle linebacker role on the Bulls and put everyone in the right spot.

However, along with being the defensive playcaller, Scottie was also mentioned as being the primary offensive playcaller and facilitator putting teammates (i.e. Jordan) in their best positions to score. So here we have a guy in Jordan, who like KD, Is placed in the most optimal environment to focus on his own scoring and his own assignments and basically only have to play the role of main scorer; while Scottie filled in every other primary role (which I define as offensive playcaller, defensive playcaller, main individual defender).

This is why MJ was never able to find the right balance as a player and fully succeed from a team standpoint, even when given point guard duties, because he mentally was not cut out to assume the other primary roles within a team construct. He was a virtuoso individual force, he even mentioned as much that he was primarily focused on understanding how to attack his own man, but he couldn't fully maximize those other main attributes necessary to elevate his teammates and could really only focus on the main scorer and occasionally main iso defender role. This is why he needed Scottie because Scottie was essentially the coach on the floor that a team needs which MJ wasn't capable of filling, but that's something LeBron's developed himself into where he can fill in those cracks no matter where he goes.

This is why MJ needed Scottie, because he was literally incapable of doing the floor general things to a high level that Scottie was able to do. And this is honestly why I think he had such an easy time of it in his career because he was placed in literally the most optimal position for a player of his disposition and tendencies. Jordan fans really hate this argument though, but it's whatever to me lol. This is the main reason why I put LeBron over Jordan slightly even though I think Jordan could very well be the better individual player. He just was way too specialized and we never got to see him in a suboptimal situation during his prime the way LeBron was forced to on many occasions.

I'm sure y'all will see more throughout the documentary and there will be things said in interviews that really confirm the importance of the roles Pippen played on the team. This is a big reason why MJ said you need to mention Scottie's name with his, because there's a mental/emotional load aspect to the game that most vlog bois don't really comprehend. But until then I'm sure insecure Jordan stans are gonna try to flame/troll me incessantly after getting their feelings hurt by this take.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#72 » by trickshot » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:50 am

Some people are just finding out hanging out with other players didn't just start in the last 10 years
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#73 » by ChiCitySPORTS#1 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:50 am

MJ was low key hilarious
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#74 » by The Rebel » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:51 am

Angry Jimmy wrote:
Drygon wrote:I wish Krause was still alive to provide more of an opposing view. It sucks that he's not around to defend himself.

That's probably going to be my only complaint throughout the series.



Krause probably deserves more credit than he’ll ever get. He did inherit a young Jordan, but he did build the perfect team around him.

It just seems to be how the public views GMs though, even today, if LeBron loses, it’s the front offices fault for not getting LeBron enough help, but if LeBron wins, LeBron gets all the credit.

Krause could have handled it better, and he probably deserved better, but at the same time, his ego is what ultimately led to the Bulls destruction.


Maybe I am remembering it differently than others, but Krause was trying to break up the team before the 5th championship and said more than once that he though the organization was the most important part of winning. His attitude was the major reason he never got another NBA job after he was let go by the Bulls despite building those teams, nobody around the NBA liked him at all.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#75 » by Heej » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:52 am

ChiCitySPORTS#1 wrote:MJ was low key hilarious

Lol yea honestly his sense of humor is ****ing incredible. Dudes witty as ****. You can tell he's just a cool and charismatic MFer vs LeBron who's kinda dorky.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#76 » by Strepbacter » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:56 am

Heej wrote:
Drygon wrote:
Heej wrote:This dude couldn't win without Pippen lol.


Image

That's great, they still went on to get eliminated in the 2nd round tho. No one could do it without help, but this post will explain why Jordan mentally needed Pippen more than other superstars needed their sidekick.

What people don't understand, and what I didn't really get until watching KD win in 2017, is that so much of a team's capacity is defined by the roles that people play. And I don't mean the typical conception where there's stars and role players, I mean the literal high level strategic and communication based roles on a basketball team.

People think KD had potentially the GOAT Finals in 2017 looking at numbers only because he put up crazy high volume on God-tier efficiency, while taking on the assignment of guarding LeBron on many possessions. But to people who watched that Finals it was painfully obvious that the most important Golden State player was Curry, because the whole offense ran through him and the whole Cavs defense sold out to stop him at the expense of leaving KD on an island.

This is where the idea of roles and responsibilities came to light for me, because the game was extremely simplified for KD by having Curry on the offensive end functioning as the team's primary playmaker; which freed up energy for KD to purely score. And I don't mean physical energy either, for anyone who's played and has heard these players talk about playing at a high level, there's an emotional energy expenditure involved with setting up your team's offensive sets and putting people in the right position to score. Curry assumed that strategic role for the team and bore the mental burden for KD. This concept is extremely relevant to MJ as I'll get into later.

On the flipside, on defense communication and putting people in the right spots and calling out opposing sets has even more of a premium placed on it, and the energy expenditure from that is even greater. But people who are able to fulfill that middle linebacker-esque role are hugely valuable. JR Smith mentioned it in one of their post game interviews how LeBron makes everyone on the court a step faster on defense because he's always telling people where to be. Just the mental expenditure from that alone is naturally going to drain yourself from other facets of the game. It's the same role that Draymond played on the Warriors; and as Phil Jackson wrote in Eleven Rings, Scottie was the one who assumed the middle linebacker role on the Bulls and put everyone in the right spot.

However, along with being the defensive playcaller, Scottie was also mentioned as being the primary offensive playcaller and facilitator putting teammates (i.e. Jordan) in their best positions to score. So here we have a guy in Jordan, who like KD, Is placed in the most optimal environment to focus on his own scoring and his own assignments and basically only have to play the role of main scorer; while Scottie filled in every other primary role (which I define as offensive playcaller, defensive playcaller, main individual defender).

This is why MJ was never able to find the right balance as a player and fully succeed from a team standpoint, even when given point guard duties, because he mentally was not cut out to assume the other primary roles within a team construct. He was a virtuoso individual force, he even mentioned as much that he was primarily focused on understanding how to attack his own man, but he couldn't fully maximize those other main attributes necessary to elevate his teammates and could really only focus on the main scorer and occasionally main iso defender role. This is why he needed Scottie because Scottie was essentially the coach on the floor that a team needs which MJ wasn't capable of filling, but that's something LeBron's developed himself into where he can fill in those cracks no matter where he goes.

This is why MJ needed Scottie, because he was literally incapable of doing the floor general things to a high level that Scottie was able to do. And this is honestly why I think he had such an easy time of it in his career because he was placed in literally the most optimal position for a player of his disposition and tendencies. Jordan fans really hate this argument though, but it's whatever to me lol. This is the main reason why I put LeBron over Jordan slightly even though I think Jordan could very well be the better individual player. He just was way too specialized and we never got to see him in a suboptimal situation during his prime the way LeBron was forced to on many occasions.

I'm sure y'all will see more throughout the documentary and there will be things said in interviews that really confirm the importance of the roles Pippen played on the team. This is a big reason why MJ said you need to mention Scottie's name with his, because there's a mental/emotional load aspect to the game that most vlog bois don't really comprehend. But until then I'm sure insecure Jordan stans are gonna try to flame/troll me incessantly after getting their feelings hurt by this take.


What a bunch of nonsense.
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#77 » by Infinite Llamas » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:03 am

Jordan will have that charisma till the end of his days. I could watch these Jordan stories forever
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#78 » by Heej » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:04 am

Strepbacter wrote:
What a bunch of nonsense.

Found the guy who didn't play organized ball
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#79 » by trickshot » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:04 am

Heej wrote:
ChiCitySPORTS#1 wrote:MJ was low key hilarious

Lol yea honestly his sense of humor is ****ing incredible. Dudes witty as ****. You can tell he's just a cool and charismatic MFer vs LeBron who's kinda dorky.

More articulate too. I like Lebron and I like him even more when he's shutting up. Too prone to faux pas although he's come a long way on that front
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Re: The Last Dance Premiere - Episodes 1 & 2 | April 19, 2020 9 PM EST, ESPN 

Post#80 » by NZB2323 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:25 am

WalkOnAir wrote:Anybody knows if this will be released on Blu-ray in the future? I want to buy the whole set.


Do they still make Blu-rays?

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