OT- The Last Dance documentary

WestsideResider · Post #281 » by **WestsideResider** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:46 am

This doc along with the hiring of AK feels like a turning of the page, finally.

Kurt Heimlich · Post #282 » by **Kurt Heimlich** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:49 am

Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.

dice · Post #283 » by **dice** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:49 am

AKfanatic wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:The Pippen contract thing is apparently getting some heat on social media.

It's really confusing that people would bash ownership for that. Players NEVER give money back when the contract was a bust, say like a Gilbert Arenas. They definitely had no reason to renegotiate it.

Yeah, it was well known at the time that Reinsdorf warned Pip that he was making a mistake. Scottie only really has himself and his agent to be angry with.

That said even back then, from the perspective of painting your franchise in a better light for players, the Bulls could’ve decided to reward Scottie for what he’d brought to the franchise.

as i think i mentioned earlier in the thread, the bulls did him a favor by cutting his rookie deal short (as they did w/ jordan)

pippen's 7 year/$19 mil deal signed after his breakout 4th season (days after the first bulls title) was the equivalent of a 7 year/$179 mil deal signed today. he'd have been worth more than that on the open market, but there was a trade-off for ending his rookie deal. it made him the 16th highest paid player in the league

AKfanatic · Post #284 » by **AKfanatic** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:53 am

bullsnewdynasty wrote:
AKfanatic wrote:
bullsnewdynasty wrote:The Pippen contract thing is apparently getting some heat on social media.

It's really confusing that people would bash ownership for that. Players NEVER give money back when the contract was a bust, say like a Gilbert Arenas. They definitely had no reason to renegotiate it.

Yeah, it was well known at the time that Reinsdorf warned Pip that he was making a mistake. Scottie only really has himself and his agent to be angry with.

That said even back then, from the perspective of painting your franchise in a better light for players, the Bulls could’ve decided to reward Scottie for what he’d brought to the franchise.

True, but the Bulls paid Scottie another $10 million at the end of his career in 2003 when he was basically finished.

There's a lot of reasons to hate on Reinsdorf, but the Pippen contract thing shouldn't be one. I mean, Steph Curry was drastically underpaid on his deal when the Warriors were winning and nobody says much about that.

Oh I agree.

and even in the small SC clips they showed in the doc it showed how sports “journalists” often looked for reason to tear down Bulls ownership/management. They’d mention (at the time) how underpaid Scottie was and never mention that he was underpaid because he decided on taking that contract.

I don’t blame Scottie either. Given what he had going on with his family, going with long term security is completely understandable. He really should’ve been most angry with his agent at the time, the advice he was given was obviously terrible. Any agent of Scottie’s in 91 that advised him signing anything beyond 2-4 years is failing Scottie. At that point it was obvious the game was growing rapidly and an agent should’ve been well aware that the contract would be terrible in a couple years time.

JOHN · Post #285 » by **JOHN** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:53 am

The Bulls FO/ownership had their image tarnished quite a few times.
To let the GOAT retire with another team and disassociate with him......I mean if I were part of the ownership group Id offer MJ 10% of my share without even accepting money as a token of honor

The Bulls image has been tarnished ever since that season and even more with the GarPax debacles

Its going to be tough for the Bulls to get up...best case Atlanta Hawks of the 90s

ThreeMileAllan · Post #286 » by **ThreeMileAllan** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:53 am

Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.

Didn't hurt us too bad. We got the memory and validation of Jordan going up against one of the greatest teams of all-time and holding his own with no help. Plus, we didnt lose draft assets really,, We still got Horace and Scottie.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Kurt Heimlich · Post #287 » by **Kurt Heimlich** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:57 am

ThreeMileAllan wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.
Didn't hurt us too bad. We got the memory and validation of Jordan going up against one of the greatest teams of all-time and holding his own with no help. Plus, we didnt lose draft assets really,, We still got Horace and Scottie.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Which totally validates a lot of how pax operated as vp of bball ops. It's like he thought "well we made the playoffs with a terrible 30-52 record and ended up winning 6 titles so shooting for the playoffs with expiring niko makes sense: as a reasonable approach. When in retrospect it killed us for years to come.

johnnyvann840 · Post #288 » by **johnnyvann840** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:01 am

Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.

Yeah but there was a butterfly effect. If they don't squeak in the playoffs that year that Boston series never happens the 49 point game the 63-point game so that's "God disguised as Michael Jordan" quote by Bird.. none of that happens. That was the beginning of the ascent. What if that team tanked out got a higher pick... it changes everything . they don't get Scottie and Horace.

I still stand firmly that tanking is a disgrace to the game. It's not a proven strategy by any means ...never was never will be. You go out there and you play your best and play to win. Period. That's the difference between then and now. Thank God Michael came back and things happened the way they did. Something so simple not happening could have changed the course of history in a big way and not a good way.

johnnyvann840 · Post #289 » by **johnnyvann840** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:04 am

Kurt Heimlich wrote:
ThreeMileAllan wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.
Didn't hurt us too bad. We got the memory and validation of Jordan going up against one of the greatest teams of all-time and holding his own with no help. Plus, we didnt lose draft assets really,, We still got Horace and Scottie.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Which totally validates a lot of how pax operated as vp of bball ops. It's like he thought "well we made the playoffs with a terrible 30-52 record and ended up winning 6 titles so shooting for the playoffs with expiring niko makes sense: as a reasonable approach. When in retrospect it killed us for years to come.

Meh... I don't buy any of that... if there was a mistake made with Niko that year, it was made before the season even started. Or it was choosing Bobby Portis over Niko.

dice · Post #290 » by **dice** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:04 am

Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.

interestingly, the team that missed the playoffs because the bulls made it was the cavs...who ended up winning the lottery and taking jordan's former UNC teammate brad daugherty

if the bulls have daugherty instead of cartwright in '89-'90 maybe the bulls start the championship run a year earlier...

paxson
MJ
pippen
oakley
daugherty

another interesting bit of bulls history is that krause could have taken karl malone in his first draft with the bulls. instead he took another PF named keith lee and traded him for oakley

Kurt Heimlich · Post #291 » by **Kurt Heimlich** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:06 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.

Yeah but there was a butterfly effect. If they don't squeak in the playoffs that year that Boston series never happens the 49 point game the 63-point game so that's "God disguised as Michael Jordan" quote by Bird.. none of that happens. That was the beginning of the ascent. What if that team tanked out got a higher pick... it changes everything . they don't get Scottie and Horace.

I still stand firmly that tanking is a disgrace to the game. It's not a proven strategy by any means ...never was never will be. You go out there and you play your best and play to win. Period. That's the difference between then and now. Thank God Michael came back and things happened the way they did. Something so simple not happening could have changed the course of history in a big way and not a good way.

Totally agree. You cant play revisionist history without considering every butterfly flap that effects it.

But I just cant help but laugh at some of the parallels that are apparent as we watch this beautiful docu-series.

johnnyvann840 · Post #292 » by **johnnyvann840** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:09 am

dice wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.

interestingly, the team that missed the playoffs because the bulls made it was the cavs...who ended up winning the lottery and taking jordan's former UNC teammate brad daugherty

if the bulls have daugherty instead of cartwright in '89-'90 maybe the bulls start the championship run a year earlier...

paxson
MJ
pippen
oakley
daugherty

Except you can't put Scottie Pippen on that team if that happens.

dice · Post #293 » by **dice** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:11 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.

Yeah but there was a butterfly effect. If they don't squeak in the playoffs that year that Boston series never happens the 49 point game the 63-point game so that's "God disguised as Michael Jordan" quote by Bird.. none of that happens. That was the beginning of the ascent. What if that team tanked out got a higher pick... it changes everything . they don't get Scottie and Horace.

I still stand firmly that tanking is a disgrace to the game. It's not a proven strategy by any means ...never was never will be. You go out there and you play your best and play to win. Period. That's the difference between then and now. Thank God Michael came back and things happened the way they did. Something so simple not happening could have changed the course of history in a big way and not a good way.

umm...

the bulls were accused of tanking to get jordan (lost 14 of final 15 prior season), so...

dice · Post #294 » by **dice** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:12 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
dice wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.

interestingly, the team that missed the playoffs because the bulls made it was the cavs...who ended up winning the lottery and taking jordan's former UNC teammate brad daugherty

if the bulls have daugherty instead of cartwright in '89-'90 maybe the bulls start the championship run a year earlier...

paxson
MJ
pippen
oakley
daugherty

Except you can't put Scottie Pippen on that team if that happens.

you can. because his pick was acquired via trade (effectively jawann oldham plus 1989 pick). it was horace who was taken with the bulls pick

the penalty for squeaking into the playoffs was ENORMOUS in the early years of the draft lottery. because 1) there were only 7 teams in the lottery, 2) the disparity between the top seeded and bottom seeded playoff teams was so great, and 3) the lotto wasn't weighted!

johnnyvann840 · Post #295 » by **johnnyvann840** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:22 am

dice wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
dice wrote:interestingly, the team that missed the playoffs because the bulls made it was the cavs...who ended up winning the lottery and taking jordan's former UNC teammate brad daugherty

if the bulls have daugherty instead of cartwright in '89-'90 maybe the bulls start the championship run a year earlier...

paxson
MJ
pippen
oakley
daugherty

Except you can't put Scottie Pippen on that team if that happens.

you can. because his pick was acquired via trade (effectively jawann oldham plus 1989 pick). it was horace who was taken with the bulls pick

Yeah but does that trade even get made if the Bulls had another lottery pick of their own?

johnnyvann840 · Post #296 » by **johnnyvann840** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:25 am

dice wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
Kurt Heimlich wrote:Pax hitting that game winner in 1986 to go 30-52 and hilariously make the playoffs feels like a pivotal and totally "pax" moment if anyone ever bothered to make a pax centric docu-series.

It's like his training ground for 30 years later stubbornly resigning and playing an expiring niko into a pointlessly big winning streak to ultimately miss out on luka because of it.

Yeah but there was a butterfly effect. If they don't squeak in the playoffs that year that Boston series never happens the 49 point game the 63-point game so that's "God disguised as Michael Jordan" quote by Bird.. none of that happens. That was the beginning of the ascent. What if that team tanked out got a higher pick... it changes everything . they don't get Scottie and Horace.

I still stand firmly that tanking is a disgrace to the game. It's not a proven strategy by any means ...never was never will be. You go out there and you play your best and play to win. Period. That's the difference between then and now. Thank God Michael came back and things happened the way they did. Something so simple not happening could have changed the course of history in a big way and not a good way.

umm...

the bulls were accused of tanking to get jordan (lost 14 of final 15 prior season), so...

I don't recall the Bulls ever being accused of tanking, they were just horrible.

dice · Post #297 » by **dice** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:27 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
dice wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:Except you can't put Scottie Pippen on that team if that happens.

you can. because his pick was acquired via trade (effectively jawann oldham plus 1989 pick). it was horace who was taken with the bulls pick

Yeah but does that trade even get made if the Bulls had another lottery pick of their own?

if daugherty is on the team, 2 things happen:

1) no need to trade oakley for cartwright, and
2) the team is better, so they would not have been in position to take horace...which wouldn't matter much because oakley is still there

no reason at all to think that krause isn't still in love with pippen and trades up with the knicks pick to get him

johnnyvann840 · Post #298 » by **johnnyvann840** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:32 am

I do recall the Houston Rockets being accused of tanking to get Hakeem Olajuwon. But I was a freshman in college at the time and a big Bulls fan and to this day I have never once ever heard anybody accuse the Bulls of tanking to get Michael Jordan.

dice · Post #299 » by **dice** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:32 am

johnnyvann840 wrote:
dice wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:Yeah but there was a butterfly effect. If they don't squeak in the playoffs that year that Boston series never happens the 49 point game the 63-point game so that's "God disguised as Michael Jordan" quote by Bird.. none of that happens. That was the beginning of the ascent. What if that team tanked out got a higher pick... it changes everything . they don't get Scottie and Horace.

I still stand firmly that tanking is a disgrace to the game. It's not a proven strategy by any means ...never was never will be. You go out there and you play your best and play to win. Period. That's the difference between then and now. Thank God Michael came back and things happened the way they did. Something so simple not happening could have changed the course of history in a big way and not a good way.

umm...

the bulls were accused of tanking to get jordan (lost 14 of final 15 prior season), so...

I don't recall the Bulls ever being accused of tanking, they were just horrible.

they were a lot more horrible at the end of the season. the draft lottery was instituted with the express purpose of reducing the rampant tanking that took place in '84:

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nfl-back-study-nba-1984-draft-debacle-tanking-fallout-article-1.972775

i'm not sure there's any direct evidence of the bulls wanting to lose games, mind you. but given their apparent desire to just a couple of years later when jordan got injured...

johnnyvann840 · Post #300 » by **johnnyvann840** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:36 am

dice wrote:
johnnyvann840 wrote:
dice wrote:umm...

the bulls were accused of tanking to get jordan (lost 14 of final 15 prior season), so...

I don't recall the Bulls ever being accused of tanking, they were just horrible.

they were a lot more horrible at the end of the season. the draft lottery was instituted with the express purpose of reducing the rampant tanking that took place in '84:

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nfl-back-study-nba-1984-draft-debacle-tanking-fallout-article-1.972775

I'm looking at that seasons game log and that was a crazy season... that team had a run where they lost like 12 of 14 games early in the season. They also had long winning streaks and they had other long long losing streaks. So, losing 14 out of 15 to end the season was was kind of par for the course for that season.

Anyway, I just found some articles about Houston tanking to get Olajuwon. There are all kinds of archived articles from that time. And I see nothing about the Bulls tanking anywhere. And honestly up until today I've never heard anybody say it