ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

[MisterHibachi]

Pretty good documentary thus far. With MJ having final say on the use of the footage, we knew this would be borderline propaganda but it was still jarring seeing him being praised for not beating a 4 HoFer team despite a massive performance. Different standards for a different time, I guess.

Also feels weird that a dead man is being **** on in this documentary, with him being unable to defend himself.

[Jabroni Lames]

Now I understand why the bulls fell off the map after Jordan retired my word ... the management my goodness

The only thing I can defend them on is the fact the team really was on fumes. Rodman was done, Jordan and Pippen both had a ton of miles on their tires, the rest of the team was always kind of spare parts that filled very specific roles around the sheer greatness of the big dogs. But yeah, the borderline enthusiasm to break it all up and start a rebuild is still pretty staggering. You kill to be in that position, and you're preemptively pulling the plug ... I highly, highly doubt they would have won it again, but how do you not let them have that opportunity, if nothing else as a thank you for everything they did to put your franchise on the map?

Ego is a hell of a drug.

Steve Kerr is pretty level-headed and he concurs. It really was the end. Phil Jackson is actually the guy that set the dominoes into motion before the season. Apparently Phil had a principle that coaches have a shelf life of 7 years before they lose a team, and he was already 2 years over that. Phil wasn't coming back to that team, regardless.

Speaking of that final title run, Kerr said it was challenging because the Bulls “were running on fumes.” General Manager Jerry Krause had let the team know before the season that Phil Jackson would not return as the team’s coach after the 1998 season completed.

“One of the things that really drove us that year was full awareness that was going to be our last dance,” Kerr said. “There was just a life span on that team that wouldn’t have allowed us to go on any further even if players were still under contract. We all felt like that was it. We were fortunate to win that last championship. There were plenty of difficult times along the way. It definitely felt like the end.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/steve-kerr-pressure-being-michael-000015594.html

[jc23]

First two episodes seemed like a refresher for those that did not know the backstories leading up to the 98 season. I expect juicy stuff to be released in latter episodes.

Also if your going to quote the long winded post people use the spoiler tag. I can’t be the only one annoyed having to scroll through it over and over.

[Brofessor24]

It's decent so far IMO.

However, King James is still my dude.

[prime1time]

Pretty good documentary thus far. With MJ having final say on the use of the footage, we knew this would be borderline propaganda but it was still jarring seeing him being praised for not beating a 4 HoFer team despite a massive performance. Different standards for a different time, I guess.

Also feels weird that a dead man is being **** on in this documentary, with him being unable to defend himself.

What are you talking about? It was his second year and his team went 30-52. Ie Clippers or the if Zion Williamson or Luka Doncic put up 63 in the playoffs vs. the Clippers or the Lakers would they not be praised? Get real.

[The Rodzilla]

Pretty good documentary thus far. With MJ having final say on the use of the footage, we knew this would be borderline propaganda but it was still jarring seeing him being praised for not beating a 4 HoFer team despite a massive performance. Different standards for a different time, I guess.

Also feels weird that a dead man is being **** on in this documentary, with him being unable to defend himself.

What are you talking about? It was his second year and his team went 30-52. Ie Clippers or the if Zion Williamson or Luka Doncic put up 63 in the playoffs vs. the Clippers or the Lakers would they not be praised? Get real.

the point is LeBron would be mocked for not winning

[walk with me]

Lebron fans are pathetic....

Anyways.. loving this doc so far, I honestly wish that the whole thing could have been rolled out at 1 time so we don’t have to wait 4-5 weeks.

[prime1time]

This dude couldn't win without Pippen lol.

That's great, they still went on to get eliminated in the 2nd round tho. No one could do it without help, but this post will explain why Jordan mentally needed Pippen more than other superstars needed their sidekick.

What people don't understand, and what I didn't really get until watching KD win in 2017, is that so much of a team's capacity is defined by the roles that people play. And I don't mean the typical conception where there's stars and role players, I mean the literal high level strategic and communication based roles on a basketball team.

People think KD had potentially the GOAT Finals in 2017 looking at numbers only because he put up crazy high volume on God-tier efficiency, while taking on the assignment of guarding LeBron on many possessions. But to people who watched that Finals it was painfully obvious that the most important Golden State player was Curry, because the whole offense ran through him and the whole Cavs defense sold out to stop him at the expense of leaving KD on an island.

This is where the idea of roles and responsibilities came to light for me, because the game was extremely simplified for KD by having Curry on the offensive end functioning as the team's primary playmaker; which freed up energy for KD to purely score. And I don't mean physical energy either, for anyone who's played and has heard these players talk about playing at a high level, there's an emotional energy expenditure involved with setting up your team's offensive sets and putting people in the right position to score. Curry assumed that strategic role for the team and bore the mental burden for KD. This concept is extremely relevant to MJ as I'll get into later.

On the flipside, on defense communication and putting people in the right spots and calling out opposing sets has even more of a premium placed on it, and the energy expenditure from that is even greater. But people who are able to fulfill that middle linebacker-esque role are hugely valuable. JR Smith mentioned it in one of their post game interviews how LeBron makes everyone on the court a step faster on defense because he's always telling people where to be. Just the mental expenditure from that alone is naturally going to drain yourself from other facets of the game. It's the same role that Draymond played on the Warriors; and as Phil Jackson wrote in Eleven Rings, Scottie was the one who assumed the middle linebacker role on the Bulls and put everyone in the right spot.

However, along with being the defensive playcaller, Scottie was also mentioned as being the primary offensive playcaller and facilitator putting teammates (i.e. Jordan) in their best positions to score. So here we have a guy in Jordan, who like KD, Is placed in the most optimal environment to focus on his own scoring and his own assignments and basically only have to play the role of main scorer; while Scottie filled in every other primary role (which I define as offensive playcaller, defensive playcaller, main individual defender).

This is why MJ was never able to find the right balance as a player and fully succeed from a team standpoint, even when given point guard duties, because he mentally was not cut out to assume the other primary roles within a team construct. He was a virtuoso individual force, he even mentioned as much that he was primarily focused on understanding how to attack his own man, but he couldn't fully maximize those other main attributes necessary to elevate his teammates and could really only focus on the main scorer and occasionally main iso defender role. This is why he needed Scottie because Scottie was essentially the coach on the floor that a team needs which MJ wasn't capable of filling, but that's something LeBron's developed himself into where he can fill in those cracks no matter where he goes.

This is why MJ needed Scottie, because he was literally incapable of doing the floor general things to a high level that Scottie was able to do. And this is honestly why I think he had such an easy time of it in his career because he was placed in literally the most optimal position for a player of his disposition and tendencies. Jordan fans really hate this argument though, but it's whatever to me lol. This is the main reason why I put LeBron over Jordan slightly even though I think Jordan could very well be the better individual player. He just was way too specialized and we never got to see him in a suboptimal situation during his prime the way LeBron was forced to on many occasions.

I'm sure y'all will see more throughout the documentary and there will be things said in interviews that really confirm the importance of the roles Pippen played on the team. This is a big reason why MJ said you need to mention Scottie's name with his, because there's a mental/emotional load aspect to the game that most vlog bois don't really comprehend. But until then I'm sure insecure Jordan stans are gonna try to flame/troll me incessantly after getting their feelings hurt by this take.

What are you talking about? No one wins a championship on their own. You write MJ needed Scottie like that is supposed to take away from MJ. What did LBJ win by himself? Am I mistaken or did LBJ go out and find Wade and Bosh and Kyrie and Love and Anthony Davis? Get real. Also, your argument is silly. Because it reduces both LBJ and MJ to superficial roles, which misses the point in the first place. All your arguing is that the role LBJ played is more important than the role MJ played. Who cares? Do you think the average American or the average human being cares about that? When people say that Ali is the greatest do you think they are arguing that Ali's style was better than Tyson's or Marciano's? No. You are talking about impact and legacy and dominance. Your post comes off as a better LBJ fan who ruminates over figuring out how LBJ is better than MJ. The irony is that you've thought about it so long that you missed the forest for the trees.

[Gooner]

Read on Twitter

And he played WITH peak LeBron. Someone check on Heej

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

He is crying right now.

[jc23]

no all time great will stop being so due to this doc, its just putting more attention to one retired player the same way current great players get attention during the season. With that said if your intention is just to be a "stan" of a said player you better get your points in now because i hear its going to get worse for your argument from here on out in this doc.

So far the highlights of the first two episodes were all the behind the scenes 98 footage and the 63 point game vs boston with LL Cool J's "im bad" playing as the backdrop. Not sure about anyone else but i wanted to go workout after it was finished.

[RaptorsLife]

Watching this made me appreciate pippen more than Jordan lmao

[Ree4erMadness]

Pretty good documentary thus far. With MJ having final say on the use of the footage, we knew this would be borderline propaganda but it was still jarring seeing him being praised for not beating a 4 HoFer team despite a massive performance. Different standards for a different time, I guess.

Also feels weird that a dead man is being **** on in this documentary, with him being unable to defend himself.

What are you talking about? It was his second year and his team went 30-52. Ie Clippers or the if Zion Williamson or Luka Doncic put up 63 in the playoffs vs. the Clippers or the Lakers would they not be praised? Get real.

the point is LeBron would be mocked for not winning

Were you alive back then because I was and Jordan ABSOLUTELY got crapped on for not winning.

[The Rodzilla]

What are you talking about? It was his second year and his team went 30-52. Ie Clippers or the if Zion Williamson or Luka Doncic put up 63 in the playoffs vs. the Clippers or the Lakers would they not be praised? Get real.

the point is LeBron would be mocked for not winning

Were you alive back then because I was and Jordan ABSOLUTELY got crapped on for not winning.

link me to that thread

[Mamba Mentality]

Few moments give you chills like the moment they played Sirius at the end of Episode 1.

[Petergrifindor]

the point is LeBron would be mocked for not winning

Were you alive back then because I was and Jordan ABSOLUTELY got crapped on for not winning.

link me to that thread

JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJ

Millennials can't truly conceive a world without internet.

[OfficialRef]

Not a big fan of the production of the doc. Its a bit random and sporadic with all the scenes- going from talking about the last season, going to Jordans college and rookie yr then back to the last dance? The content is good and I'm definitely interested.

MJ was such a dick to Jerry.

[OfficialRef]

Read on Twitter

And he played WITH peak LeBron. Someone check on Heej

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I wouldn't put too much stock into this. Wade grew up and idolized Jordan, naturally he would call him the GOAT just based off of nostalgia.

Its similar to players that believe Kobe was near GOAT-status. The buzz of their background from all the media and hype along with their admiration pegs them higher in their eyes.

[The Rodzilla]

Were you alive back then because I was and Jordan ABSOLUTELY got crapped on for not winning.

link me to that thread

JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJ

Millennials can't truly conceive a world without internet.

wait when was the internet connected?, Wikipedia says 1965 or 1967 with Arpanet

if it wasn't around back then how did this guy know that people mocked Jordan for not winning and how can he prove it

[Pennebaker]

My favorite quotes from this so far:

"Everybody says, well, you won all these championships, but I didn't win without Scottie Pippen."

- Michael Jordan

"Whenever they speak Michael Jordan they should speak Scottie Pippen."

- Michael Jordan

Gifts that will keep on giving.

[Sprewell4Three]

My favorite quotes from this so far:

"Everybody says, well, you won all these championships, but I didn't win without Scottie Pippen."

- Michael Jordan

"Whenever they speak Michael Jordan they should speak Scottie Pippen."

- Michael Jordan

Gifts that will keep on giving.

Nobody should disagree with that however we all know MJ was the best player on that team. Especially on the offensive end where the ball went through him most of the time. MJ playing with Pippen doesn't take away the fact how great he was.

It's like saying oh Shaq wouldn't have won without Kobe. Which is kinda true but we all know Shaq was the driving force of those 3 peat teams. That doesn't take away from the greatness of Shaq.